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#1. Re: [E36M3] Overheating - from NickG
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 15:49:52 -0400 From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Overheating > Yesterday, I had the great experience of a track day on Laguna Seca. My car > is the one you all know from the July 1997 Road & Track Dinan test. Fearing > that I might still have the plastic impeller water pump, I had it replaced, > as well as the plastic thermostat housing, and the thermostat two days > before the event. During the third session after about 60 miles on track, I > experienced sudden overheating. Some fluid was blown out the radiator cap > area. After over an hour, I was able to drive it home 80 miles away without > further overheating. Sounds like the cooling system wasn't bled enough after all the work. Air caught in the system would cause the problem you had. Nick
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#2. BMW Racing... - from Thissell, Jeremy
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 16:11:18 -0400 From: "Thissell, Jeremy" <Jeremy.Thissell@USPTO.GOV> Subject: BMW Racing... Regarding LeMans. The two BMW V12 LMR's DNF. The PTG cars did not compete. From what I read, the LMR's were redesigned to compete in AMERICAN LeMans series. They changed the aerodynamics this year to provide more downforce thus making them more suited for the twisty ALMS courses and less suited for the highspeed straights of LeMans France. As for the PTG cars, I attended the BMW CCA trip to the PTG facility in the spring (I understand Ron Katona wrote at length about that visit on this list, so please forgive any duplicated info). What Tom Milner said was that the PTG cars were not fast enough in the straights to be competitive at LeMans. They don't have the aerodynamics or power that the 996's do. Supposedly both the E36 and E46 PTG cars out brake and out handle the porsches but lose in the straights. There was also some talk about restrictions put on the M3's due to their success. Stuff like making them carry more weight, and letting the Porsche's run a wider tire than the M3's. That is supposedly starting to even back out, but the bottom line seems to be that BMW needs a stronger engine to compete with the porsches. I wonder what this will mean for the future of the M3 engine. Tom said that when the new E46 engine comes out in the fall, PTG will still be using their own engines because they've essentially already done all the tweaks to their engines that BMW did for the new E46 M3. Tom said that this year they will be squeezing upwards of 410-420 hp out of those cars, up from 380 last year. Sounds like some of the engine tuning may have been the idea of BMW, and developed concurrently at PTG and BMW (maybe not together, but at the same time). Tom said that the majority of the changes came by lightening the valvetrain in the E46 M3 engine. I think the extra power they get at PTG comes from an improved valvetrain and a better head design (I think this may have been courtesy of BMW as well, but that's just a guess too). PTG got a new 3 axis CNC machine just for milling engine heads, sounds like that's the last place that there is room for improvement in that engine. Jeremy Thissell Patent Examiner Art Unit 3762 US Patent Office
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#3. Re: [E36M3] BMW Racing... - from Adam Fila
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 16:54:33 -0400 From: "Adam Fila" <ylf@mindless.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] BMW Racing... There were no V12 LMR's in 2000 Le Mans. There was one V12 LM from 1998, ran by Thomas Bscher. This was not one of the 1999 cars that run ALMS. The ALMS cars were not at Le Mans. The other BMW was a Debora LMP675 chassis with a 3.2 liter I6 engine (from the E36 M3 <- OBE36M3C) Neither has finished the race. As for the E46 - no restrictions on those. The restrictions were a PSCR thing on the E36 M3's so dominant against the older Porsches, and the PSCR rules are no longer used in ALMS. All cars are now ACO rules cars, and ACO does not use restrictions to slow down dominating cars. (They do have intake restrictor rules to equalise different engines) The E46 at the moment is plain down on power. 3.2 liters vs. 3.6, the restrictor rules favor the later. PTG thinks they can overcome this with aerodynamic and handling advantages on the US tracks, but at Le Mans, the only chance is new rules (not likely) or a new engine. Only way to see a new engine is for BMW AG to decide they want to have a LM GT car, and so far they are more concentrated on F1 and soon on DTM than Le Mans. So most likely there is not going to be an E46 at Le Mans in the near future, or possibly never (which was the case for E36) As Milner said, BMW builds M3's primarily for the US market, where most of them are sold, and Le Mans simply isn't followed by the American public enough for them to justify a serious LM GT effort with the car. -Adam Fila '95 M3 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thissell, Jeremy" <Jeremy.Thissell@USPTO.GOV> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 4:20 PM Subject: [E36M3] BMW Racing... > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 16:11:18 -0400 > From: "Thissell, Jeremy" <Jeremy.Thissell@USPTO.GOV> > Subject: BMW Racing... > > Regarding LeMans. The two BMW V12 LMR's DNF. The PTG cars did not compete. > >From what I read, the LMR's were redesigned to compete in AMERICAN LeMans > series. They changed the aerodynamics this year to provide more downforce > thus making them more suited for the twisty ALMS courses and less suited for > the highspeed straights of LeMans France. > As for the PTG cars, I attended the BMW CCA trip to the PTG facility > in the spring (I understand Ron Katona wrote at length about that visit on > this list, so please forgive any duplicated info). What Tom Milner said was > that the PTG cars were not fast enough in the straights to be competitive at > LeMans. They don't have the aerodynamics or power that the 996's do. > Supposedly both the E36 and E46 PTG cars out brake and out handle the > porsches but lose in the straights. There was also some talk about > restrictions put on the M3's due to their success. Stuff like making them > carry more weight, and letting the Porsche's run a wider tire than the M3's. > That is supposedly starting to even back out, but the bottom line seems to > be that BMW needs a stronger engine to compete with the porsches. I wonder > what this will mean for the future of the M3 engine. > Tom said that when the new E46 engine comes out in the fall, PTG > will still be using their own engines because they've essentially already > done all the tweaks to their engines that BMW did for the new E46 M3. Tom > said that this year they will be squeezing upwards of 410-420 hp out of > those cars, up from 380 last year. Sounds like some of the engine tuning > may have been the idea of BMW, and developed concurrently at PTG and BMW > (maybe not together, but at the same time). Tom said that the majority of > the changes came by lightening the valvetrain in the E46 M3 engine. I think > the extra power they get at PTG comes from an improved valvetrain and a > better head design (I think this may have been courtesy of BMW as well, but > that's just a guess too). PTG got a new 3 axis CNC machine just for milling > engine heads, sounds like that's the last place that there is room for > improvement in that engine. > > Jeremy Thissell > Patent Examiner > Art Unit 3762 > US Patent Office > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* > > >
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#4. Re: [E36M3] LeMans - where were the E46 M3's? - from Bryan Watts
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:35:58 -0400 From: "Bryan Watts" <wattba02@wfu.edu> Subject: Re: [E36M3] LeMans - where were the E46 M3's? Chester wrote: > They announced a while ago that they pulled out of the Lemans for this year. > Something about the new E46s not being competitive enough. Not enough power > coming from the engine, etc, etc. Man, BMW has gone soft. 'Round my > neighborhood, if you win a race (or any other competition for that matter) and > don't face the same challenge the next time, you know what they call it? A > fluke. > > Looks like my next car, if I could afford it, will be a P car... =) > > Chester Chester, if you are referring to the fact that BMW won the race overall last year and then didn't show up again this year, you are correct. Although before you go buy that P-Car, you might remember that Porsche won the race in 1998, and then didn't come back the next year, nor this year with any sort of factory effort. The only Porsches that have been in the race have been through privateers driving 993 Turbo's in GTS and 996 GT3R's in the GT class. How much do you want to bet that Audi won't be back next year? What would they have to gain after such a decisive pounding of the competition this year? Look for the race to be between the Cadillac's, Panoz's and Peugot's next year, assuming Audi doesn't come back and no one else (BMW, Porsche, Toyota, Ferrari?!?) makes a factory effort. Now as far as PTG is concerned, the cars simply aren't competitive at this point. The ALMS races I have seen have been dominated by the P-Car GT3's. They just aren't making the same HP that the P-Car's are, though they do seem to handle better from what I've seen. Plus, the fact that they are pumping 400+ hp out of those 3.2 liter engines is giving them reliability problems. With that in mind, LeMans would be quite a large expense for PTG considering their slim chances of winning. -Bryan Watts
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#5. Overheating - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:52:37 -0400 From: "Paul Elliott" <pelliott@rcn.com> Subject: Overheating Joe, > My car is the one you all know from the July 1997 Road & Track Dinan test.< I didnt know that...Yours is the white one with the square hole cut into the bumper above the foglight for the K&N to breathe that made the magazine rounds for review? That's funny. Last week when I called dinan to ask if they had a template for this 'hole' to cut, they told me that that car was recently put up for sale, and was the same one Steve placed first in One Lap! Hmmm...are there 2 of 'em? ___________________________ Paul Elliott '99 Alpine White M3; <15000 mi; Forged M dbl-spokes; Rotex pads; Dinan Stage II Supercharger
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#6. re: LeMans - where were the E46 M3's? - from Ron Katona
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:57:37 -0400 From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> Subject: re: LeMans - where were the E46 M3's? Chester Wong: > They announced a while ago that they pulled out of the Lemans for this year. > Something about the new E46s not being competitive enough. Not enough power > coming from the engine, etc, etc. Man, BMW has gone soft. 'Round my > neighborhood, if you win a race (or any other competition for that matter) and > don't face the same challenge the next time, you know what they call it? A > fluke. I remember Tom Milner telling the NCC tour early this year that LeMans would be nice, but was not on the agenda unless things went very well. No, things have not gone very well. Yes, they are down on power. Although the US E46 M3 gets a big power boost and the Euro M3 gets a slight improvement, the PTG engine is basically the same block, head, and electronics as last year. They already had that motor pretty much maxed out, so no power increase for them. Porsche has passed them by. I certainly hope the $400 they owe me is put to good use catching the Porsches. -- Ron Katona
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#7. Re: [E36M3] LeMans - where were the E46 M3's? - from Chester Wong
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:18:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] LeMans - where were the E46 M3's? --- Bryan Watts <wattba02@wfu.edu> wrote: > Chester, if you are referring to the fact that BMW won the race overall last > year and then didn't show up again this year, you are correct. Although > before you go buy that P-Car, you might remember that Porsche won the race > in 1998, and then didn't come back the next year, nor this year with any > sort of factory effort. The only Porsches that have been in the race have > been through privateers driving 993 Turbo's in GTS and 996 GT3R's in the GT > class. How much do you want to bet that Audi won't be back next year? What > would they have to gain after such a decisive pounding of the competition > this year? Look for the race to be between the Cadillac's, Panoz's and > Peugot's next year, assuming Audi doesn't come back and no one else (BMW, > Porsche, Toyota, Ferrari?!?) makes a factory effort. > > Now as far as PTG is concerned, the cars simply aren't competitive at this > point. The ALMS races I have seen have been dominated by the P-Car GT3's. > They just aren't making the same HP that the P-Car's are, though they do > seem to handle better from what I've seen. Plus, the fact that they are > pumping 400+ hp out of those 3.2 liter engines is giving them reliability > problems. With that in mind, LeMans would be quite a large expense for PTG > considering their slim chances of winning. Sorry, I was mixing up my discussion between the LMRs and the GT class cars. Didn't the 996 GT3R come out only last year and was extremely competitive? And here we have the BMW folks dicking around with an old engine (not sure if the new Porsches had new engines or revised versions of older ones...although I think it's new since it was watercooled, no?). What I love to see in any competitive event is the validation of their dominating force such as when the E36M3s consistently kicked the competition's ass. Or when Michael Jordan simply dominated his opponents from '90 - '98. I truly hope that Audi does come back next year and continue to kick ass. I think Duane Collie put it best when he said that Audi is hungy to take a chunk out of BMW and Mercedes' marketshare...and that it showed. I think I read somewhere in Autoweek where the author stated: "Since 1980, when the 3 Series got good, BMW in Britain has been an icon of German excellence. Cars appeared to spring fully formed from a lab where every employee wore a crisp shop coat and even the tea lady moonlighted as a rocket scientist. TOday, BMW looks as shabby and vain as most other mass-market car companies." I want to buy a car from true auto enthusiasts. Not from marketing folk who have to idea what passion means to a car dude. I don't want a 4000 pound luxobarge that goes fast because you stuff a big engine in there. ...we already have the Vettes and Mustangs and even to a certain degree, the Viper, for that. I wonder how many people decided to buy a BMW because it won a race or not. What's all this about expenses and not being good for the brand? If BMW was concentrated on appealing to the largest market (which I would believe would be the US), why would they even focus on F1? 'Mericans love to see cars go in circles... Man, has anyone seen the Panoz Esperante? Glued together extrude aluminum pieces...now that's cutting edge technology (although it's been around for quite some time)! I want some of that. But unfortunately, it's only available on the Z8...D'oh! Sorry for my babling, Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/
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#8. Speaker suddenly shut off - from Suwipin Martono
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:59:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Suwipin Martono <martono@newton.me.berkeley.edu> Subject: Speaker suddenly shut off Hi guys, I was driving my 97 M3 this afternoon with my stereo on when I hit this little bump on the road. Suddenly the speaker went off and there's no sound coming out from the speaker anymore. I tried to turn off the engine, turn it back on and turn on the stereo again. But there's nothing coming out of the speaker at all. Have this happened to any of you guys? What should I do? Thanx in advance, pin :)
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#9. Intake Air Turbulence - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:56:55 -0400 From: "Paul Elliott" <pelliott@rcn.com> Subject: Intake Air Turbulence Remember when we first started investigating putting a cone in the engine compartment...Well, alot of folks had either intuitive or experiential notions that breathing the hot, under-hood engine air is not a good thing for power production. Then, through dyno testing, it became apparent that breathing hot air was only one problem. Another one had to do with Fan Wash, which I took to mean under hood turbulence stemming from fan rotation, which would hurt the ability to feed a smooth stream of air to the HFM for a true reading. Well, a shield in a well designed system put an end to those fears. But, what of this so called turbulence? Doesnt the flow of outside air through inlets of various sizes and shapes at varying speeds also cause turbulence? It is said that the construction of some cones helps to 'smooth' this incoming air, so as to not hinder a good reading. Is there any danger that rushing incoming air, possibly swirling around the inlet compartment, will cause the same kind of problem that the somewhat now archaic Fan Wash used to cause? _____________________________ Paul Elliott '99 Alpine White M3; <15000 mi; Forged M dbl-spokes; Rotex pads; Dinan Stage II Supercharger
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Intake Air Turbulence - from NickG
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:10:59 -0400 From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Intake Air Turbulence > Is there any danger that rushing incoming air, possibly swirling around the > inlet compartment, will cause the same kind of problem that the somewhat now > archaic Fan Wash used to cause? I think the problem is actually due to a combination of hot, turbulent air. You don't want one side of the MAF meter to have hot air, and the other cold air. You want the temp to be even throughout the sampling area. Any turbulence in the air is usually straightened by the filter, intake tubing, and MAF screens. Nick