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#1. Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #269 - from Zez413@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:14:34 EDT From: Zez413@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #269 Looking to put a gauge kit in the empty space below the On board Compute. Suggestions? - It is important to me to keep a factory look. Thank you Patrick Mallon 98 M3/2 Cosmos Blk
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#2. RE: [E36M3] understeer detection - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:18:32 -0700 From: "Jim Bassett" <jbassett@mayannetworks.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] understeer detection > "Detecting" a car's understeer/oversteer characteristics is not > something you > really "detect"; but rather something a driver induces. In other > words, you > have to take your car and push it to a higher limit at which > point you can start > to evaluate its characteristics. Hence "detect" understeer(?) :-) > Here's the funny thing (sort of): Cars can have a combination of > effects. What > I mean by that is that a car can always understeer, can always > oversteer, can go > from understeer to oversteer or vice versa depending on what the > driver does. Like in the same corner on a track, say Thunderhill? :-) (See UUC sway bar impression post.) > 1. normal street driving - fogetabouit. True. > 2. aggressive street - not enough. Tires not heated up > properly, brakes not > heated properly, air pressure adjustment not made, and driver NOT > in the right > frame of mind. There are usually other people on the road, the > roads are not > wide enough, you might end up introducing your rims to Mr. Curb, > you may piss > off the local yokels and cops etc.... I'll disagree a bit (just a weensie bit, if I may :-). You can, in big sweeping turns (on- and off-ramps, or just long freeway turns) induce/detect understeer in our cars, especially those in stock or near-stock configuration. It's actually quite easy, and doesn't necessarily involve the cautions you mention (which SHOULD be heeding, BTW). In certain circumstances, there are several portions of the freeway near me that can be used in this manner, at speeds not that much above the legal limit. As my car gets further from "stock", however, this is not a viable option for the reasons you mention, plus the greater speed necessary to induce/detect understeer. YMMV, IMO, etc. > 3. "Whipping around a corner" - this is more a measure of > transient handling > and is not the preferred measure. My car understeers slightly on > the track but > I can easily make it oversteer around a street corner (with ASC > off of course). Agree. > 4. Track - It goes without saying that this is the ideal proving > ground. So > yes, this is the place to "determine the whole > understeer/oversteer setup on a > car." Completely, absolutely agree 100% :-) > See above. If you want to take a trip to the east coast I (and > many others) > would gladly test the car with you. :-) And I'll extend the same invitation for here on the West Coast :-) > Cheers, > Jim E. Cheers, Jim B.
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#3. Re: [E36M3] understeer detection - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:21:46 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] understeer detection >You guys, > >Being pretty inexperienced, I was wondering... > >Is it easy to detect understeer during street driving, even fairly >aggressive street driving, whipping around a corner at an intersection for >instance, or do you really need to be at the track to determine the whole >understeer/oversteer setup on a car? > >I've experienced heavy understeer at a lapping day at the track, with the >front tires juddering like mad, but I'm not sure I can tell if my >suspension >setup is correct just by driving on the street. it's not as easy as you make it sound. or you make it sound you want it to be. ;-) a car will understeer or oversteer in any corner in any setup if you go too fast. (too fast into the corner usually makes understeer, too fast out of the corner usually makes oversteer, but even that is a simplification) and... understeer and oversteer can be adjusted independantly of each other. meaning that by decreasing understeer you're not necessarily increasing oversteer. the simplified version you get in car review table reports (where they say a car either understeers or oversteers) is just an indication of which is likely to occur first. meaning... if you take a stock M3 through a corner at a constant speed, but make that speed faster and faster and faster your car will experience understeer long before it experiences oversteer. so... they declare M3s "understeer". now... let's say you decrease the understeer and leave the oversteer the same. now you do the experiment again and this time your car experiences oversteer first. so you decalre your M3 "oversteers" (when the oversteer didn't even change.) now... i take your "oversteering" car and charge too fast into the corner. what happens? i get understeer. and you're confused because we declared your car an "oversteering" car. i hope that helped more then it confused. the point is that oversteer and understeer and adjusted independantly. and you probably want to decrease both (which is easy to do) long before you worry about the balance between them. one more example. (i can't help it) the easiest way to "balance" our M3 would be to put 1 inch wide tires on the rear. this would increase the oversteer to the point that it would match the understeer. is that what you really want? probably not. but your M3 would be "balanced" instead of "understeering" at that point. ;-) --------------------------- so... to the point... about this line: "but I'm not sure I can tell if my suspension setup is correct just by driving on the street." the key word there is "correct". what do you mean by that? if you mean that your car is as likely to experience understeer as oversteer, my first question is "why do you want that?". unless you're racing a good amount of understeer is a GOOD (safe) thing. and even if you are racing, a perfect balance isn't always what you want. again, it's probably better to decrease both then it is to balance them. ESPECIALLY for a street car. but more importantly... while doing these experiements is possible on the street, it's not a good idea. the only way to see how your suspension balance is, is to actually OVERSTEER and UNDERSTEER. and doing that on the street is probably gonna get you a ticket or an accident or both. if you are going to do these experiments, do it far from my house. ;-) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#4. RE: [E36M3] E36M3 #269 - from Paul Tsaliagos
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:25:32 -0400 From: Paul Tsaliagos <ptsaliagos@mediamap.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] E36M3 #269 Try www.easternmotorwerks.com Paul Tsaliagos MediaMap Technical Support 617-583-4258 -----Original Message----- From: Zez413@aol.com [mailto:Zez413@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 2:20 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #269 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:14:34 EDT From: Zez413@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #269 Looking to put a gauge kit in the empty space below the On board Compute. Suggestions? - It is important to me to keep a factory look. Thank you Patrick Mallon 98 M3/2 Cosmos Blk ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. *************************************************************
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#5. RE: [E36M3] understeer detection - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:28:09 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] understeer detection > > See above. If you want to take a trip to the east coast I (and > > many others) > > would gladly test the car with you. :-) > >And I'll extend the same invitation for here on the West Coast :-) no way! his car is mine! i've driven it already (though not fast enough for this kind of detection) so keep your hands off! ;-) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#6. Lowered 95 M3 and 8.5 inch BMW wheels on front - from Marc.S.Edwards@QuestDiagnostics.com
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:27:51 -0700 From: Marc.S.Edwards@QuestDiagnostics.com Subject: Lowered 95 M3 and 8.5 inch BMW wheels on front Jon Massengale asks: My 95 is lowered with Eibach sport springs and has Racing Dynamics bars. I'm afraid the 8.5's in front will hit/rub? Jon Massengale 95 M3 SC Austin, TX I answer: Jon; I bought some LTW wheels a while back and then later bought the M3 LTW to have something to put the wheels on and to keep the wheels on the ground rotating and I hope mostly parallel to each other <G> Hey honey, I bought these wheels and now I need the car that goes with them........ ;-)) I have a 95 M3 LTW with the BMW forged 17 x 8.5 inch LTW wheels on the front and rear. The wheels also have 245/40/17 Yokohama AVS sports. My (lowered and stiffened) suspension includes H and R sport springs, Koni adjustable shocks, KMAC camber plates, and the RD Sport swaybars. I do not have any problems with rim clearance or tire clearance with this specific setup in the front or the rear. I am not using spacers. The rear fender lips were rolled prior to my possession of the car however so on my specific car I can't tell you if there would be fender rubbing in the rear or not. There is no rubbing on the inside of the wheel or tire in the rear. Marc Edwards 1995 M3 LTW white wit dem flag thingies 1995 M3 regular red witout dem flag thinges
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Lowered 95 M3 and 8.5 inch BMW wheels on front - from Jim Powell
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:31:45 -0700 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Lowered 95 M3 and 8.5 inch BMW wheels on front No, they work fine. Jim Marc.S.Edwards@QuestDiagnostics.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:27:51 -0700 > From: Marc.S.Edwards@QuestDiagnostics.com > Subject: Lowered 95 M3 and 8.5 inch BMW wheels on front > > Jon Massengale asks: > > My 95 is lowered with Eibach sport springs and has Racing Dynamics bars. > I'm afraid the 8.5's in front will hit/rub? > > Jon Massengale > 95 M3 SC > Austin, TX > > I answer: > > Jon; > > I bought some LTW wheels a while back and then later bought the M3 LTW to have > something to put the wheels on and to keep the wheels on the ground rotating and > I hope mostly parallel to each other <G> Hey honey, I bought these wheels and > now I need the car that goes with them........ ;-)) > > I have a 95 M3 LTW with the BMW forged 17 x 8.5 inch LTW wheels on the front > and rear. The wheels also have 245/40/17 Yokohama AVS sports. My (lowered and > stiffened) suspension includes H and R sport springs, Koni adjustable shocks, > KMAC camber plates, and the RD Sport swaybars. I do not have any problems with > rim clearance or tire clearance with this specific setup in the front or the > rear. I am not using spacers. The rear fender lips were rolled prior to my > possession of the car however so on my specific car I can't tell you if there > would be fender rubbing in the rear or not. There is no rubbing on the inside of > the wheel or tire in the rear. > > Marc Edwards > 1995 M3 LTW white wit dem flag thingies > 1995 M3 regular red witout dem flag thinges > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > *************************************************************
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#8. Damn rocks! - from Paul Agustin
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:35:07 -0500 From: Paul Agustin <agustin@iaxs.net> Subject: Damn rocks! While out on break this morning a small rock or something found its way to cracking my lens cover on my elliptical european headlights. So to those of you out there who have these. Where did you get them and do they sell just the lens cover? TIA. Paul Agustin
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#9. 95 M3 gets a 3.38 rear end - from Rob Hatrak
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:36:54 -0700 From: "Rob Hatrak" <Hatrak@ix.netcom.com> Subject: 95 M3 gets a 3.38 rear end A few weeks ago I asked the group for opinions about upgrading the rear end in my 95 M3 to a 3.38. I got a bunch of great emails and help from many people. I would like to throw a special "Thank You" out to Bob Tunnel, Skip Bogard, Sean Hester, Ben Liaw, and Mike Mount. Thank you, gentlemen, for helping me make this decision. I truly appreciate it. For those that are curious, I am very pleased with the results. The car really pulls a good bit harder. Some people warned me that I would be shifting a lot more with the new gears, but I have found the reverse to be true. Previously I would need to downshift into 4th on the freeway or 3rd on the street to make a pass, but now it seems like the car has great power in every gear. The car will still hit 60 in second gear with my slightly taller-than- stock 245/40 tires, and the loss of 350 RPM at redline is soon forgotten. I am not sure if it would be worth spending money on this upgrade if you are going from a 3.23 to the 3.38, but from my original 3.15, this is a very worthwhile upgrade. I highly recommend it for the 95 M3 crowd. Thanks again to those people listed above! Rob Sin City Chapter
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#10. Re: [E36M3] understeer detection - from nabli@attglobal.net
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:50:13 -0400 From: nabli@attglobal.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] understeer detection Jim Bassett wrote: > > "Detecting" a car's understeer/oversteer characteristics is not > > something you > > really "detect"; but rather something a driver induces. In other > > words, you > > have to take your car and push it to a higher limit at which > > point you can start > > to evaluate its characteristics. > > Hence "detect" understeer(?) :-) You see guys, I'm one of the "lower level Jim's" that need a little straightening out every so often. LOL! > > > > Here's the funny thing (sort of): Cars can have a combination of > > effects. What > > I mean by that is that a car can always understeer, can always > > oversteer, can go > > from understeer to oversteer or vice versa depending on what the > > driver does. > > Like in the same corner on a track, say Thunderhill? :-) (See UUC sway bar > impression post.) > > > 1. normal street driving - fogetabouit. > > True. > > > 2. aggressive street - not enough. Tires not heated up > > properly, brakes not > > heated properly, air pressure adjustment not made, and driver NOT > > in the right > > frame of mind. There are usually other people on the road, the > > roads are not > > wide enough, you might end up introducing your rims to Mr. Curb, > > you may piss > > off the local yokels and cops etc.... > > I'll disagree a bit (just a weensie bit, if I may :-). You can, in big > sweeping turns (on- and off-ramps, or just long freeway turns) induce/detect > understeer in our cars, especially those in stock or near-stock > configuration. It's actually quite easy, and doesn't necessarily involve the > cautions you mention (which SHOULD be heeding, BTW). In certain > circumstances, there are several portions of the freeway near me that can be > used in this manner, at speeds not that much above the legal limit. As my > car gets further from "stock", however, this is not a viable option for the > reasons you mention, plus the greater speed necessary to induce/detect > understeer. YMMV, IMO, etc. Actually I don't think we really really (even just a weensie bit) disagree. :-) Yes it can be done on the street as Jim B. correctly points out. On the other hand I don't think it gives you the level of accuracy that say a track run would give you. I'm referring to tire temp, brake temp (assuming we know how to trail brake to induce oversteer) etc.... Of course if you go for a ride with THE Jim P. then all bets are off because you WILL reach the limit very very expeditiously - like it or lump it! :-) > > > > 3. "Whipping around a corner" - this is more a measure of > > transient handling > > and is not the preferred measure. My car understeers slightly on > > the track but > > I can easily make it oversteer around a street corner (with ASC > > off of course). > > Agree. > > > 4. Track - It goes without saying that this is the ideal proving > > ground. So > > yes, this is the place to "determine the whole > > understeer/oversteer setup on a > > car." > > Completely, absolutely agree 100% :-) > > > See above. If you want to take a trip to the east coast I (and > > many others) > > would gladly test the car with you. :-) > > And I'll extend the same invitation for here on the West Coast :-) Watch what you say because I may just take you up on it! :-) Cheers, Jim E.