E36M3 #363

This digest contains the following messages:

-------------------- 1 --------------------

#1. For sale original factory EXHAUST out of  97 BMW M3 - from Cesar Omar
Top
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:45:37 -0400
From: "Cesar Omar" <cesar@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: For sale original factory EXHAUST out of  97 BMW M3

For sale original factory EXHAUST out of  97 BMW M3 (25, 000 miles) ,
Improve the performance and appearance of your 325 or 328 by installing a M3
muffler. I believe it will only bolt directly on to a 96-99 M3 or 328.  95 &
earlier E36 can be made to fit with some amount of work. For questions or
picture e-mail me at cesar@cfl.rr.com, no price in mind just make me a fair
offer. Digital pictures available.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	E36M3 [mailto:e36m3@bmwmpower.com]
Sent:	Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:14 PM
To:	E36M3
Subject:	[E36M3] E36M3 #361

This digest contains the following messages:

  1. Re: [E36M3] Coolant Level.....Thanks!
         by:  <JimShadow@aol.com>
  2. Re: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels
         by: Bob Larson <asp9111@home.com>
  3. RE: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels
         by: Zorine, Dmitri Y, CFSMD <dmitri@att.com>
  4. Re: Rear trailing arm bushings
         by: Rob Norwalk <rjnorw@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com>
  5. 96 M3 FOR SALE
         by: B Horlacher <Horlacher@CarrIndustries.Net>
  6. A note of thanks...
         by: Peter Guagenti <peter@guagenti.com>
  7. FS: E36 Coupe Car cover
         by: Michael Ting <lupin@purdue.edu>
  8. WTB: E36 Bentley Manual -got it-
         by: Michael Ting <lupin@purdue.edu>
  9. Re: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels
         by: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com>
  10. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada
         by: George M. Kofman <sdg2@execpc.com>

--------------------  1  --------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:57:35 EDT
From: JimShadow@aol.com
Subject: Re: [E36M3] Coolant Level.....Thanks!

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far.
 I spoke with the alt. service dude today who said that "This has happened
for no reason in the past and has turned out to be nothing....."  (NOT
impressed to say the least!!!)  So I put in 1 full Litre into the radiator
to
bring it to the cold level.  I haven't had a chance to even start the car as
I am frantically trying to finish drywalling my garage.  I'll keep ya'll
posted.......

JIM  (12K left on the warranty.......)



--------------------  2  --------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:47:02 -0700
From: "Bob Larson" <asp9111@home.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels

> I start out wanting to spend $1500 on auto-x/track tires and wheels...

I got the Yok A032R and factory take-off's at about that price.  Same
size, 235/40 F & R, on 7.5 & 8.5 rims...Rotating will entail mount&balance,
but nothing like the money you're talking about.  They are plenty quick,
probably the best you can find for cold or wet.  We love 'em here in
the NW

Bob L.



--------------------  3  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:03:45 -0400
From: "Zorine, Dmitri Y, CFSMD" <dmitri@att.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels

> > I start out wanting to spend $1500 on auto-x/track tires and wheels...
>
> I got the Yok A032R and factory take-off's at about that price.  Same
> size, 235/40 F & R, on 7.5 & 8.5 rims...Rotating will entail
mount&balance,
> but nothing like the money you're talking about.  They are plenty quick,
> probably the best you can find for cold or wet.  We love 'em here in
> the NW

Just another data point.

I've used both G-Forces R1's and Yoko A032R's in 235/40-17. They both fit
fine. R1's had a little bit of "polishing" action on strut housing, but
that's it. R1's where mounted on stock 10-spoke 7.5/8.5 F/R and Yoko's are
on M-contours 8.5 all around.
I also compared them to my stock 245/40-17 Michelin Pilot Sports. Both 235's
seemed just as wide as Pilots, granted with bigger contact patch, due to
more square carcass.
Yoko's have slightly lower sidewall than R1's, 24.4" vs. 24.7" overall
diameter. This might help just a tiny bit with acceleration, but most likely
won't be noticeable.

Dmitri
'99 M3 Coupe - swapped strut hats (both tire wheel combos fit fine before
and after swapping hats)



--------------------  4  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:14:04 -0500
From: "Rob Norwalk" <rjnorw@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com>
Subject: Re: Rear trailing arm bushings


>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:41:26 -0400
>From: Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com
>Subject: Rear trailing arm bushings
>
>
>Here's my question:  I have a 95 M3.  I understand the bushings for the
96-99
>cars are different because they were redesigned and made more durable.  The
>price is the same for either.  Is there any reason I do NOT want to use the
>96-99 style bushings?  Fitment problems?  Geometry changes?

Here's my answer: There is now only one part number for all E36s. (92-99,
318 to M3). Part is now "split" for easier install. It's easiest if you
split the existing one prior to removal by drilling a 3/8" hole through the
rubber, and then hacksawing through the outer circumference of the aluminum
while it's still installed in the arm. You can then press it out easily
with your fingers.

Bob Tunnel has an excellent writeup of this procedure on his web-site

Rob
93 E36
_______________________________
Rob Norwalk
Raytheon Systems Company
Vc:219.429.4737 Fx:219.429.5004



--------------------  5  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:52:30 -0400
From: "B Horlacher" <Horlacher@CarrIndustries.Net>
Subject: 96 M3 FOR SALE

1996 BMW M3 for sale, Techno Violet w/ mulberry interior. Fully loaded,
luxury package, H/K sound, CD Changer, Sunroof, etc. etc. I am asking
$31,000.00 negotiable; book value is 33,765 it has 47,000 miles on it. I
have service records, mobil 1 15/50 synthetic oil changed every 3k with
OEM filter "Mahle." Please contact me if interested, Cell phone
(336)324-6343. Email me for pictures Horlacher@CarrIndustries.net
<mailto:Horlacher@CarrIndustries.net>

Thanks
Bill Horlacher
BMW CCA 172352




--------------------  6  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:54:04 -0700
From: Peter Guagenti <peter@guagenti.com>
Subject: A note of thanks...

I just wanted to drop a note of thanks to everyone on this list and
especially to Suzy for being our gracious host.

I joined the list a year ago when I started tuning my 328i.  I always kind
of felt like the odd man out being one of those list people _without_ an M.
Regardless, the information (and group purchases) passed around were (and
are) incredibly helpful.

Last night I finally took the next step and bought a used '95 M3 from a
fellow CCA member and driving school instructor here in SF.  I feel like
this list not only gave me the knowledge I needed to feel that I was getting
the right car, but also made me feel confident that, even though I haven't
owned the car yet, I know it like one I've been driving for years.

So thanks to all.  See you at the track. ;)

-peterg



--------------------  7  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:51:54 -0500
From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu>
Subject: FS: E36 Coupe Car cover

Sorry to some of you who contacted me previously, and I was unable to give
you details about the car cover.

I was finally able to get some information on the car cover.

It's made from Evolution 4 fabric.

Now with pictures!!!

http://24.4.161.169/forsale.htm

I'm selling it for $100 including shipping.

Michael Ting
--------------------





--------------------  8  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:55:13 -0500
From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu>
Subject: WTB: E36 Bentley Manual -got it-

Thanks for everyone who made the offer.

I went to local Barnes & Noble last night, and they have a copy of the book.
So I got one over there.

However, the car cover is still available. :)

Michael Ting
--------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu>
To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmwmpower.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 6:13 PM
Subject: [E36M3] WTB: E36 Bentley Manual


> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:04:22 -0500
> From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu>
> Subject: WTB: E36 Bentley Manual
>
> Anyone has an E36 Bentley Manual that they want to sell??
>
> Possible trade with E36 coupe BMW car cover.
>
> Michael Ting
> --------------------
>
>
>
>
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--------------------  9  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:10:38 -0700
From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels

yoko and Toyo home pages have size info so you can see how the height of
225/45
compares with 245/40 for example. If you are going to use the same size
front
and back the traction control won't know or care what that size is. If you
are
talking about track tires you won't care because you would have the traction
control off anyway. Ken Robb

Andy Korczynski wrote:

> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:13:19 -0500
> From: Andy Korczynski <Andy@casskor.com>
> Subject: RE: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels
>
> So what's best? Going with a 245/45 or a 235/40 or a 245/40?  It seems
that
> the 245/45 may mess with traction control, speedo, and odometer because
its
> a bit larger in diameter.  I'm starting to think the best solution is to
> just get 17 X 8s or 8.5s and put Hoosier 245/40's on them?  What the heck
is
> another $40 a tire?  This is a typical problem when it comes to this damn
> car.  I start out wanting to spend $1500 on auto-x/track tires and wheels
> and I'll end up spending $3000.
>
> Andy K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reed nicholson [mailto:reedthis48@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 6:04 PM
> To: E36M3
> Subject: Re: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:00:07 GMT
> From: "reed nicholson" <reedthis48@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [E36M3] - AutoX Tires & Wheels
>
> >Well this is good news.  Somebody should tell Tire Rack because they
> >strongly advised me that the 245/45 would be too tall and rub.  Guess
> >they were wrong.
>
> My impression of The Tire Rack is that they are very conservative when
> advising what will or won't fit.  They guarantee that what they say will
> fit, will, so they don't take any chances on suggesting something that
might
>
> not.  If they say it will fit, it almost certainly will, but if they say
it
> won't, it might.  Say what?
>
> Reed/Seattle
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--------------------  10  --------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:08:39 -0500
From: "George M. Kofman" <sdg2@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada

>          by:  <Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com>
Eric, Piete & the Gang ---

I've experienced this first hand as well.  Also, browsing a few Auuuuuuuuudi
RS4 web sites, I found a UK article comparing a Euro M3 to the S4.  on the
track.  and the writer did say that the M3 has the following traits:
understeer with a tendency to snap into oversteet.  REPEAT: snap.

now, my personal experience:  a few months ago, I was at BFR (2M road coarse
in Rockton IL/Beloit WI). Turn #5 is a fast left hander (3rd or 4th).  FAST.
you are essentially accelerating all the way from #3-3a, and can carry a
fair amount of speed into 5.  I've had a few close calls there last year,
but on that day everything felt right. turn in, throttle... up until the
rear started sliding to the right.  10-15 degrees.  I immediately flicked
the steering wheel to the right and eased a little out of the throttle.  the
car came back very nicely and very smoothly.  I bet it was not very
noticeable from outside the cockpit.

a little about my car:  1997 M3, no mods other than: A032R tires mounted on
7.5x17 rims; PF90 pads, lower X-brace. [ installed Schroth Rallye-3's two
weeks ago :-) ]

now, the fun part - I had a camcorder recording this little "slide."  I
played it back a dozen or so times and showed it to a few track junkies like
myself.  as they see it, they usually comment something like "wow..." or
"holy shit... "  a few theries they provided -

1) tires lost grip
2) slippery pavement
3) shit happens

I didn;t buy any of them, except maybe 20% of #1 and 2.  I figured that I
must have done the following:

1) going faster than the prev lap
2) turn-in
3) a little too much power [reduce the amount of grip tire has to turn. ie:
remember the friction circle?]
4) and .... pinch the turn a little too tight and not track out as wide as I
should have [reducing even more of the tire's ability to grip]

result - start of a slide.  this is what happens when tire looses traction.

how do I know this is what caused it ?
1) on subsequent laps, given proper trackout line and throttle modulation,
no slides.
2) same tires/temps/surface
3) the fact that by SLIGHTLY reducing throttle input and with minimal
steeting correction the car spabilized as though nothing happened.  the
throttle issue leads me to believe the slide was a power/throttle oversteer.
sort of when you are doing a skidpad excersize and first you are
understeering, and all of the "sudden" it's oversteer ?

so, as you can see, all this is easily explainable. at least in my case.
and ONLY because I had the luxury of video to go back to a doz times.
without it, it would have been "tires gave... slippery surface - musta been
oil/water/gas/debree... shit happens"

this still though does not explain the WHOLE picture:

our M3 cars are great cars, but they are ROAD CARS and NOT race cars.  if
one has a modified car, expect strange handling characteristics.  mine was
bone stock except for the ///M crossbrace.  PTG cars most likely are not
using the same suspension components or maybe same moutining points, thus
having different susp geometry (just a hunch).

wanna have a car with more predictable handling characteristics ?

1) Auuuuuuuudi S4 Quattro
2) P996
3) P996

or get a Formula car and buy a copy of Carl Lopez's book "Going Faster"

gotta get back to work and actually do something other than looking busy :-)

Best regards,
GMK

'97 M3 sedan w/ no mods[other that tires, pads and harnesses]; $$$ spent
[and spending] on the Skiop Barber racing program & club "drivers ed" events

> --------------------  9  --------------------
> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:08:28 -0400
> From: Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com
> Subject: M3 handling traits-sedan vs. coupe
>
>
>
> Piete,
>
> I can't imagine there are any big differences between the sedan and the
coupe,
> but I'm sure there are some small ones.  I understand where you're coming
from,
> you know about my incident a while back, it was a similar situation.  The
tail
> snapped around before I knew what happened.  I think it's an M3 trait -
the car
> has very high limits, even in stock form, and when it lets go it lets go
in a
> big way.  I think the only real cure is seat time, but how often are you
in that
> situation?  I'd love to find a place where I could safely test the cars
limits
> at 50-60-70 mph, pushing it until it spins and learning to catch it, but I
don't
> think one exists.  Also, a third gear slalom is pretty fast.  Maybe your
course
> designer is causing the oversteer. :)
>
> As far as adjustments go, maybe some more toe-in at the rear?  Wouldn't
help
> those lower speed turns any.
>
> Eric
>
> btw - Are you going to Sebring in Sept?  App is online at
www.sunshinebeemer.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>
>
> I've heard a lot about the understeering of the M3 and have experienced
that
> on slow autocross courses and slower track turns. However, I've also
> experienced tail wagging and oversteer during high speed transitions (one
of
> which sent me through a fence). This usually comes when transitioning too
> quickly at high speed. For example, when going through a slalom at speed
> (third gear), turn too quickly and the back end will start to step out,
> usually very quickly.
>
> Is this a common experience for everyone? I have a '97/4, if this is not
> common, is it possible the sedans are stiffer in the rear causing more
> pronounced oversteer vs. the coupes?
>
> What would be the best steps to counteract this stomach-sinking maneuver
> (besides slowing down)? More air in the rear tires, less air in the front?
> Soften the rear suspension? Stiffen the front suspension? Currently I have
> the maximum camber possible in the rear without crash bolts.
>
> Thanks for any comments/suggestions.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------  10  --------------------
> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:55:52 -0400
> From: vernon@sprynet.com
> Subject: Ground Control coil-over suspension
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the coil-over kit from Ground Control?
Their package that I'm considering is a full coil-over in the front and a
"coil-next-to" in the rear (but still adjustable).  They use Eibach springs
and Koni single-adjustable shocks.  I'd also use their adjustable
camber/caster plates and rear shock mounts.  They let you pick the spring
rate (linear Eibach springs) for both front and rear.  Has anyone had any
experience with this setup or with Ground Control in general?  I don't know
much about them.  Thanks!
>
> Vern Anderson
> 98 M3/2
> bone stock for only a few more weeks....
>
>
>
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-------------------- 2 --------------------

#2. Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear trailing arm bushings - from Rex Tener
Top
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:52:19 -0700
From: Rex Tener <rex_tener@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear trailing arm bushings

At 07:13 AM 7/20/2000 -0500, Rob Norwalk wrote:

Hi Rob,

>Here's my answer: There is now only one part number for all E36s. (92-99, 
>318 to M3). Part is now "split" for easier install.

Can you describe this "split" that makes it easier to install?  I am having 
a hard time visualizing it.

Thanks,

--
Rex Tener
rex_tener@yahoo.com
1995 BMW M3, SCCA SFR Solo II A-Stock #139



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-------------------- 3 --------------------

#3. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Michael Ting
Top
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:06:23 -0500
From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada

Sean Hester said:

> the M3 is designed to not slide.  and it's really good at it.  so good at
> it, that by the time things are bad enough to be "bad" you go from
> "everything's perfect" to "i'm spinning" with little to no warning.

Just curious, do the other 3 series behaves similarly?

And how about the M Coupe?

Michael Ting
--------------------

Top

-------------------- 4 --------------------

#4. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Bryan Watts
Top
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:14:54 -0400
From: "Bryan Watts" <wattba02@wfu.edu>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada

Sean wrote:

> if you want a car that'll give you some warning before you're spinning,
the
> M3 is not it.  no matter how you set it up.

I've never felt this way about the M3.

I drive a 95 M3, only modifications are Eibach springs, Bilstein sports,
Porterfield R4's and Hoosier 245/40's all round.  Obviously with this
set-up, my car has a tremendous amount of understeer.  There just isn't
enough camber up front to allow the tire to work properly.

Multiple times I have exceeded the limits of the car as it moved from
understeer to oversteer.  While it did happen quickly, I found the car to be
very easy to catch.  So far I have yet to ever spin a car while on track.

I have had the same experience in my father's LTW.  The car is extremely
modified as an H-Prepared Club Racer and consistently competed with Modified
cars with its previous owner at the wheel.  Even in a highly modified car,
with much higher limits, I have never found the car to be hard to catch once
those limits were exceeded, and most times, I could feel the car beginning
to go on me.

Most people I talk to at the track, BMW and non-BMW owners alike, all
comment on how the E36 M3 tends to correct itself whenever it gets out of
shape.

Any others with the same experience?  Maybe my perception is simply off, as
I have only driven a few cars on track.   Besides the E36 M3, my only other
track driving has been in a 600+ hp Mustang...talk about going from
understeer (pushes like a pig) to oversteer (yee-haaa, hang on) quickly!!!!!

-Bryan Watts
95 M3
92 325 K-Prepared...coming soon to a track near you

Top

-------------------- 5 --------------------

#5. Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any nominations? - from Pieter Van Dien
Top
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:44:55 -0400
From: "Pieter Van Dien" <pvd1@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any nominations?

As to the handling characteristics of the M3, I think the consensus is that
this is not a car for beginners. While I wouldn't say I'm a beginner per se,
I have a lot to learn and I look forward to doing so with a reasonably safe
platform. If the M3 is too fast and transitions too quickly, what are
everone's suggestions for a good (read safe, predictable AND fun) driving
school car, auto-x and future Solo I STREETABLE vehicle: one suggestion from
within the BMW family and one from without with a preference for rear-wheel
drive.

My nominations would be:    BMW-- 1995-99 318ti
                                            OTHER-- 2000+ turbo VW GTI (may
become very competitive in Solo II)
                                                             1999+
Miata--for slow auto-xs only, too dangerous for track even with roll bar

Piete

Top

-------------------- 6 --------------------

#6. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Ron Katona
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:14:07 -0400
From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada

Sean Hester wrote:
> the M3 is designed to not slide.  and it's really good at it.  so good at 
> it, that by the time things are bad enough to be "bad" you go from 
> "everything's perfect" to "i'm spinning" with little to no warning.  less 
> warning then every other car (street car or race car) i've ever driven.

I'm almost shocked to hear this! My impression of the E36 M3's handling
is that it's so benign and communicative that it's almost boring to
drive it near the limits. Yes, I've tracked the car on R1s more than
once, did the skid pad exercises, and do a ton of autocross. It's
interesting that there can be such a gulf in opinion on the car's
handling. I'm not Schumacher (not even Ralph), but neither am I slow and
I just never had anything approaching a "snap" oversteer in my '95. I'm
scratching my head trying to figure out why my M3 is OK, while others'
M3s are mean, nasty, ugly, ill handling beasts!

I've got more autocross experience than track time with the M3, but I've
just never found the car remotely twitchy or difficult to recover. I've
had the rear end step out at Summit Point in the moderately fast (I
guess ~85) turn 10 and require only a small correction. I've had bigger
slides in slower corners there without drama. I've had big 45 degree
tail out slides resulting from stupidity on autocross courses recovered
despite my best efforts to jab at the controls. Are we driving the same
car?

Have you ever driven a Miata in the rain? Now that's a twitchy little
b*tch! I recently drove a C5 Vette at an autocross and although it's
very benign as well (and damn fast), the instant and massive torque
combined with a poor view of the outside world makes it more difficult
to drive than the M3 also. I've never driven an RX-7 TT, but I've heard
that when the second turbo kicks in, you better know what exactly you're
doing. My 318ti was more tricky at speed due to the old E30 style rear
suspension. They lose camber after a certain amount of suspension travel
because of the geometry of the semi-trailing arm setup. They can be fun
rides despite the lack of power because they have both good grip, and
the twitchy rear end - more "personality" than the E36 M3.

The first time I was on a skid pad with the M3 after being used to the
ti, I couldn't get the M3's tail to kick out - I had to be what I
considered brutally un-smooth with the throttle to make things happen.
the lower powered ti would happily transition from power understeer to
trailing throttle oversteer without much coaxing. Maybe it was learning
performance driving in that car that gives me a different perspective on
the M3?

For the record, I've had my car on the track on street tires with stock
suspension, R1s with stock suspension, in an autocross with both those
setups, and autocrossed with all of Conforti's tricks and a greatly
stiffened and lowered suspension and Hoosiers. Haven't tracked that last
setup yet.

If someone who I knew had a significant amount of track experience
complained to me about snap oversteer in an M3, I'd immediately suggest
that they check tire pressure, then alignments, then shocks, then
bushings, then control arms and ball joints, then a frame shop to see if
the car's straight. I know Sean has a lot of track experience, more than
me probably.

So what's causing the big differences in opinion on this? Car setup?
Worn bushings and suspensions? Driving styles? Tire brands or pressures?
All of the above?
--
Ron Katona

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-------------------- 7 --------------------

#7. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling - from Donna Seeley
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:23:41 -0700
From: Donna Seeley <dseeley@infoasis.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling

At my first safety school, an instructor was looking at the sea of ~30 E36
M3s and grumbling, "I hate to teach people to drive in M3s. They're so
forgiving that you don't know you're in trouble until you're in a _lot_ of
trouble." 

 Donna
 -------
 88 M3, track car, converted yesterday to snap-oversteer stiffness with a
mixed-vendor suspension
 95 330isA, super-commuter
 http://www.stopyoucold.com

> From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com>
> 
> the M3 is designed to not slide.  and it's really good at it.  so good at
> it, that by the time things are bad enough to be "bad" you go from
> "everything's perfect" to "i'm spinning" with little to no warning.

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-------------------- 8 --------------------

#8. Being keyed and nicked. Found a great fix. (long) - from David Oath
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:27:41 GMT
From: "David Oath" <oath1@hotmail.com>
Subject: Being keyed and nicked. Found a great fix. (long)

Ok folks after being as loyal reader for about a year I have finally come up 
with a good tip for you guys.My last BMW was a 325I and was keyed very badly 
.. Tried to use the BMW paint stick and just made it look worse. My new car 
was keyed and I just left it. I live in Colorado and get all kinds of nicks 
from rocks and stuff. So I grabbed my paint stick to touch up the nicks on 
the front grill. I open up the drawer and see a permanent Magic Maker and 
figure since the body kit needs to get a good paint job pretty soon I'll try 
the MM on the front. It looks pretty good so I figure what the hell try on 
the key marks. I very lightly went over the key marks and then followed up 
with a soft wet cloth and pretty much buffed it off . Turned it and spit on 
the cloth and kept buffing it hard. Came out 10 times better than any paint 
stick I've ever user. Waxwed and it looks great. YMMV. But I think not. See 
ya



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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-------------------- 9 --------------------

#9. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling - from Donna Seeley
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:33:23 -0700
From: Donna Seeley <dseeley@infoasis.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling

Ron,

I'll see if I can anticipate Ken Robb's answer.  :)

I'd guess driving style is the biggest reason you've never had the M3 snap
around. If you've driven a Miata in the rain and lived to tell about it <g>,
you're probably very smooth with the steering and throttle.

How's that, Ken?

 Donna
 -------
 88 M3, track car
 95 330isA, super-commuter
 http://www.stopyoucold.com

> From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net>
> 
> I just never had anything approaching a "snap" oversteer in my '95. I'm
> scratching my head trying to figure out why my M3 is OK, while others'
> M3s are mean, nasty, ugly, ill handling beasts!
> 
> Have you ever driven a Miata in the rain? Now that's a twitchy little
> b*tch! 
> 
> So what's causing the big differences in opinion on this? Car setup?
> Worn bushings and suspensions? Driving styles? Tire brands or pressures?
> All of the above?
> --
> Ron Katona
> 

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-------------------- 10 --------------------

#10. Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, - from Andrew E. Kalman
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:36:52 -0700
From: "Andrew E. Kalman" <aek@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3,
 what car then? Any nominations?

Peter wrote:

>As to the handling characteristics of the M3, I think the consensus is that
>this is not a car for beginners. While I wouldn't say I'm a beginner per se,
>I have a lot to learn and I look forward to doing so with a reasonably safe
>platform. If the M3 is too fast and transitions too quickly, what are
>everone's suggestions for a good ...

Um, I find the reasoning for the statement above ("is not a car for
beginners") a little odd. The consensus I'm aware of is that the M3 is too
good, and too forgiving, for a beginner to learn much -- a beginner can
make HUGE mistakes and the car will still stay on track. As a result, it's
hard for a beginner to learn what is right (e.g. smooth turn-in) and what
is wrong. The M3 masks the driver's faults.

As an example, a couple of years ago I drove Thunderhill in my M3, and was
back the next weekend in my 914-4 2.0. I (fool that I was :-) ) drove the
914 like I drove the M3, and promptly found myself flying off the track at
the turn-in to the steep rise (whatever it's called). The lesson I learned
is that the 914, with its excellent mid-enghine handling, is nonetheless
much less forgiving and requires greater driver skill to drive fast.

I thing the best car for a beginner to learn on is moderately fast, with
good brakes, and squealy, not-very-grippy tires. Just about any Alfa comes
to mind, but of course the newest ones are 7 years old (and convertibles --
a no-no that you already recognize).

The crappier the car, the more you will learn. I learned in a rental
Renault Alliance with an automatic. Once you come in with bald tires,
smoking brakes, and all the while you're keeping it on the track and making
a good show of yourself, then it's time to move up to some more capable
machinery. It's also a whole lot cheaper than balling up a nice, expensive,
fast car.

Regards,


 ______________________________________
  Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.   aek@netcom.com

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