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#1. RE: [E36M3] Handling of the M3, I agree with Pieter - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:01:42 GMT From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Handling of the M3, I agree with Pieter Do you think the fact that the M3 cost twice as much as the Jetta had anything to do with your state of mind while driving at the limit? ;-) -rb >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:01:24 -0400 >From: Paul Tsaliagos <ptsaliagos@mediamap.com> >Subject: RE: [E36M3] Handling of the M3, I agree with Pieter > >I had a Jetta VR6 with roughly the same setup as Pieter and I had no fear >driving that car to its limits and beyond. I've only had the M3/4 for about >two months(first rear wheel drive car) and I am still getting used to it. I >haven't pushed it to hard yet. I hope to get some track time this year to >practice safely. I might be like pieter, a front-wheel driver at heart! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any - from Seth Thomas
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:20:38 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any I would have to agree with Ron here. I have a 318ti that I bought this year. Very nice, slow car but man does this car handle great. It is one of the old TC Kline club racers. Does it out handle my M3? I think so but the M3 is faster because of its HP advantage. The ti is just fun as you can slide it around a little and embarrass M3s. I took it to Road Atlanta in March and I learned a lot in the car. It made me understand how to take a turn faster as you don't have the power to comensate for your mistake. You learn how to turn in, what a good speed is and how to finish a turn carrying the most speed you can. You don't have to do this with an M3 as the power just pulls you out and makes up for your mistakes. So if I could do it all over again and become a beginner again I would definately drive a 318ti. You will get passed but I will guarentee you that you will be a better driver if you learn in a car like that. Plus you should see the looks of M3 dirvers when they give you the pass signal and they see a shortened 3 series passing them. Not the best feeling I imagine. Seth Thomas www.m3ltw.com www.m3power.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:37:57 -0400 > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any > nominations? > > Andrew E. Kalman wrote; > > I thing the best car for a beginner to learn on is moderately fast, with > > good brakes, and squealy, not-very-grippy tires. Just about any Alfa comes > > to mind, but of course the newest ones are 7 years old (and convertibles -- > > a no-no that you already recognize). > > I second that. My first school was in a 318ti on all season radials. > That car is again on those tires and actually I've thought about taking > it to another school in that condition just for kicks... too bad I've > decided to sell it because it's a riot to slide around with those > squealing tires! You do learn a lot about car control with low grip > tires - sort of like your own private skid pad. A lot of people will > pass you, but you'll learn a lot more. > -- > Ron Katona > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* > >
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#3.ALMS Sears Point Tickets? - from Jay L.
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay L." <joong@yahoo.com> Subject: <wob> ALMS Sears Point Tickets? If anyone has weekend tickets for the race this sat/sun, please email me. Thanks, Jay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/
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#4. M3 Handling - from Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:27:30 -0400 From: Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com Subject: M3 Handling How many of us had VR6 VW's anyway? It sure seems like a bunch of us. Mine was a 95 GTI with Bilsteins and Neuspeed springs. And you know what? It never handled anywhere near as well as my wife's stock 325i, much less my M3. Sure, it had grip with sticky tires, but it never had the balance or the composure of the BMW. It may have felt "safer" to me because it was so much slower. The only thing I miss about it is the cargo hauling ability. I've probably done 12-15 autocrosses and 1 track event with my M3. I've hung the tail end out at autocross, but in general I've had no handling issues. I did have one incident at an autocross, but I've come to the conclusion that it was 70% driver error and 30% course design. I haven't been to that site since. Piete and I were at Sebring in January, and I can tell you not to let his appearance fool you. He is quite capable of hustling the car around the track pretty quickly. We're both pretty much beginners, but we weren't exactly out for a Sunday drive. I did not experience any scary behaviour from the car, even making some rookie mistakes. As Ron and others have said, the car is almost too good. It's easy to go fast. I think it is a matter of the M3 having such high limits that if you cross that line you're in for a ride, especially if you're inexperienced. I've found the car to be very communicative and easy to catch if it starts to get loose, except that one time. Like I said, once you cross the line... I stand by my position that seat time is the only fix for any percieved handling issues. Learn the limit and how not to cross it. And if you do, you'll have experience to help you get out of trouble. Eric 95 M3 95 325i
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#5.2002 daily driver - from Michael Turgeon
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Turgeon <turgeon1@yahoo.com> Subject: <WTB> 2002 daily driver Subject line pretty much says it all. I would prefer a relatively inexpensive car with a solid body, no rust if possible over everything else. OK if not running perfectly. No basketcases please. Chicagoland or upper to middle midwest preferred. Please respond privately as this may be OT. Thanks, Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/
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#6. Rocks & airbags - from Jzy308@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:43:11 EDT From: Jzy308@aol.com Subject: Rocks & airbags Driving ('98 M3/4) north on the Blue Ridge Parkway (VA), Tuesday, 18 July, about 50+mph following, closely, a Range Rover (so twisty you couldn't pass a golf cart!), down hill, sharp left turn: Range Rover easily clears a good sized fallen rock in the middle of the road (about mile post 4). I don't (although my wife said,"Where's all that panic avoidance stuff you learned at driving school?"). Pretty good crunch and loud report as passenger side as door air bag deploys: so quick my wife didn't know what happened, slight bruise on right arm from air bag cover panel. Car continues to run w/no warning lights on dash. I pulled over as soon as I could (10 sec), got out and looked for damage: front splitter untouched (!!), no visible liquid leaks, large bundled wire dangling from mid-rear with what looked like a snap connector hanging from front. Checked oil and fuel pressure: OK. Proceeded, slowly, to Chevron Station at Parkway entrance, Afton Mountain, and called BMW roadside. They came w/flatbed and hauled to Pegasus Motors in Charlottesville (my dealer as I live in C'ville). Closer inspection revealed a severely dented oil pan, but no cracks and a severed electrical cable to the passenger side door airbag: may be some kind of "fail safe" system so that sudden loss of power, w/ignition on, triggers the bag. Any comments? (There was no impact on the passenger side and the rock hit almost on the center-line.) And, if the ground clearance of the splitter is lower than the rest of the underside, how did it escape? (Turning left, weight shift right??) Total repairs: $3,020.61, including replacement of muffler assembly, fender airbag sensor (2), oil pan, airbag, oxygen sensors (2), and misc bits and pieces. Damn dear rock! (Travelers very responsive and agreed w/dealer's numbers.) Carl Sewell '98 M3/4 CCA: 151298
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#7. RE: [E36M3] handling characteristics - from John Payne
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:48:56 -0600 From: "John Payne" <jpayne@peakss.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] handling characteristics I second your Dinan suspension praise. I've got the complete Dinan stage III suspension and it is really good. It rips on the track, and still fairly comfortable on the drive home. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Robb [mailto:kenrobb@willisallen.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 2:04 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] handling characteristics > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:56:12 -0700 > From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> > Subject: handling characteristics > > I guess it is time to make a brief comment again. I've instructed at > over 100 2 day schools and driven many different cars and about every > type of M3 you can think of from stock to Bob Perry's race car. A stock > e36 is a very forgiving and benign-handling car with moderate understeer > under power and very controllable line-tightening under trailing > throttle. It is almost an overstatement to call it oversteer. You > really have to work to get the tail to come around. > As owners modify their cars, often in a quest to reduce understeer, the > cars become less forgiving and move toward twitchy, with rapid change > from push to "here comes my ass around to meet me" oversteer. Street > tires tend to have more rounded profiles which, along with other > features, make their breakaway fairly gradual. Race tires are designed > to keep a larger, flatter patch on the ground, but when they let go it > is more abrupt. This is especially so on cars with relatively soft > suspensions that do not keep the tires as flat as a stiff race style > suspension and the breakaway of a stock car with race tires can be very > dramatic. > So I would say that until you are driving the perfect lap and using > everthing your stock car can give, you are wasting your $ and giving up > comfort and clearance for nothing more than appearance and something to > talk about while bench racing. > To generalize I would say that the mst successfully modified cars I have > been in were those where the owner had bought the new components from > one designer. We read people complaining that xyz company charges $xxxx > for a set of bars or springs---what a rip-off. The best results come > after much research and development which is exspensive and must be > included in the price of the parts. Some of the worst handling cars have > been equiped with abc springs, xyz bars, and someone elses shocks. > My car is stock, but I can say that I have never been in a car with one > of Dinan's suspension kits from stage 1 up that I didn't think was > really good. I know there are other good suppliers and I just wish folks > would pick one and get the whole integrated package from the same > outfit. I can't believe I said this would be brief! Ken Robb > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------- > Click here for Free Video!! > http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* >
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#8. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:01:50 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada >The first time I was on a skid pad with the M3 after being used to the >ti, I couldn't get the M3's tail to kick out - I had to be what I >considered brutally un-smooth with the throttle to make things happen. >the lower powered ti would happily transition from power understeer to >trailing throttle oversteer without much coaxing. Maybe it was learning >performance driving in that car that gives me a different perspective on >the M3? that's it! you said so many things in there that explain what i'm talking about. i'm not trying to describe that M3s are hard to drive and want to come around easily. i'm trying to describe that M3s handle so well that by the time you get them "out of shape" there's almost no time to save it. you had to "force" your M3 to come around. while the ti would do it easily. now... i bet (since the ti would come around so easily) that you could happily go from "fine", to "getting wierd", back to "fine", then to "getting wierd", to "almost spinning", to "kinda wierd", back to "fine", then to "spinning" almost at will right? you could "control" you're "out of controlness". but when you were "brutally un-smooth" with the M3 did you save it? i bet you didn't. and THAT'S THE PROBLEM! joe student that i'm gonna be teaching on sunday at SIR in his M3 could be going around the track all day "brutally un-smooth" and getting away with it. the M3 would "cover" for him and he'll not even know he's doing it. and as the day winds down and he's going faster and faster, one time he's gonna be a TINY BIT TOO "brutally un-smooth" and spin his car. and then ask me "what the heck happened? i did it just like last time." now... if joe student had a honda accord (or a 2002, or 525 to stay with bmw) and was being brutally unsmooth, his car would be "getting wierd" and he'd know it. he'd either spend the day "recovering" (since that car would allow him too recover much easier) or he's STOP being brutally un-smooth. the car would not "cover" his mistakes and he's be much easier to teach. is this making sense? P.S. congrats for all of you that think that M3s are easy to recover. they're not. drive some other car at the track at the limits. you'll see how much MORE ROOM FOR ERROR there is at the limits on almost any other car. (even my race prepped, slammed down, stiffer then hell rx7 race car has a larger area between "fine" and "spinning". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#9. Brake rotors - from Marcus Groenig - SAS(Yield)
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:15:55 -0500 From: "Marcus Groenig - SAS(Yield)" <MGroenig@SAS.Samsung.com> Subject: Brake rotors Listers, Thanks to the E36M3 list I have a new stainless brake line (to replace the one I sheared the fitting off of) on its way as we speak. This list really is a great resource! Now, I've got another question for the group. I replaced the pads on my old rotors and noticed they were getting a little thin (there is a significant lip of unworn material around the edge of the rotor). On top of that, the new pads are dragging on some raised surfaces (I think) on the old rotors, making some interesting sounds. I'm going to need new rotors. What's the group's opinion on the various rotor options available? I've heard good things about the euro M3 floating rotors, as they are quite resistant to warpage. How about cross drilled or slotted rotors? I have heard that typical cross drilled rotors can fracture around the drill holes due to micro-cracks from the drilling process. I doubt that I drive my car hard enough to cause this kind of fracture, but I'm concerned nonetheless. The dissipation of gas buildup allowed by the drilled or slotted rotors sounds like a big bonus though... Thanks for your opinions, Marcus '95 M3 needs new rotors
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:25:33 -0700 From: "Jim Bassett" <jbassett@mayannetworks.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, > Ok, let me beat Bassett and Seeley to this one. Well, it's good you did. You really wouldn't want either of us to mention it, would you? ;-) > Ask me how I know. :) > > - Mark "Turn 10, Turn 11" Dadgar > '95 M3 Just ask him what the license plate is for this car :-) Cheers, Jim Bassett - playing "instigator" today :-) 1998 M3/4 - packed up & ready for Buttonwillow