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#1. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:32:47 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada >I just never had anything approaching a "snap" oversteer in my '95. I'm >scratching my head trying to figure out why my M3 is OK, while others' >M3s are mean, nasty, ugly, ill handling beasts! maybe i'll try to describe what i mean another way. think dukes of hazzard... think most any car chase scene in a movie... think dirt track cars... what are those cars doing? they are sliding, tires screeching, around corners. they usually even go past 90 degrees, then come back around in the direction the driver wants. when they are doing that they are in the zone of traction between "fine" and "spinning". that's the zone of an M3 that's so narrow that it's almost non existant. at coned excercises at our schools you see (and hear) 525s, 2002s and almost any car (exceot M3s) sliding around. they overcook a corner, the tail comes out, they slide around it and everyone claps and says "woo hoo wan't that fun?!" do you see M3s do that? no. never. nada. nuh-uh. have any of you ever done that in an M3? if not, go try. you won't be able to do it. i'll pay $100 to anyone that can do that for me in an M3. but i'll only pay you the $100 if after you do it in an M3, you admit that EVERY OTHER CAR ON THE PLANET would be easier to perform that stunt in. why? because of the "way they handle". they just don't do that. and that's what i'm calling "bad" behaviour, because it means that you have almost no warning between "fine" and "spinning". again am i making sense? maybe i'll try some graphs. as you go to the right you're pushing the car harder and harder. the number 1 represents the transition from "fine" to "getting wierd". the number 2 represents the transition into "spinning". here's some random car: [------1-----2------] here's an M3 [-----------1--2----] let's examine. the "normal" car will indeed "get loose" and even "spin" before the M3. but... you had lots of warning. it takes much more effort (stupidity) to make the M3 spin, but! you dind't have much warning that you were being stupid. if you're at the stage of driving where you're learning, you try to stay below the #1 point. in that case, the M3 sure is alot funner! and better handling! just look how much faster you can get through corners! ;-) if you're at the next stage of driving, (the one were you're trying to be at #2 on the scale) things change. with a huge gap between #1 and #2 the first car will be easier to drive near #2. the M3 with #2 being so near #1 will be bard to judge. maybe that's our disconnect? for people trying for spot #1 in the scale. M3s are much much better. it's only for people trying for spot #2 on the scale (racers, you shouldn't be at #2 at a driver school) that the story changes. which car would i rather drive? the first one. even though the overall traction is lower, with so much time between 1 and 2, you could get used to it and spend most of your time at the 2. in the M3, with so little warning, i'd be afraid to "push it" and would spend most of my time at or below the 1. (which is slower then the other car's 2 point) here's some other handy graphs, jsut because i like drawing them. [------1-----2------] random car [-----------1--2----] M3 [--------------12---] M3 with r compound tires [----------1-----2--] my rx7 race car [1--------2---------] the skid car i'm gonna be driving in monday P.S. notice that my race car when driven "below the limit" is not as good handling as an M3. but once you get the tail out and that 7 degree slip angle it'll go through corners faster. and that skid car. it handles like crap, but the "middle range" is huge. the point there is to practive being in the middle range. and it works very well for that... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#2. Re: [E36M3] handling characteristics - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:40:09 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling characteristics >Kenn Robb said:. >"So I would say that until you are driving the perfect lap and using >everything your stock car can give, you are wasting your $ and giving up >comfort and clearance for nothing more than appearance and something to >talk >about while bench racing...." >Well, where do we draw the line? Why don't we all drive Neons until our >abilities are up to stock M3 levels. I'm sure not everyone on this list is >using everything the stock M3 can give, so we wasted our money for nothing >more than appearance -right? After all, Neons are more predictable. >I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just playing devils advocate my first racing school used neons for school cars. i learned more in those then anything in ym M3. people buy M3s for driving around town. and for that they are very good. "making errors" is a DAMN GOOD thing if you ask me, since 99% of drivers are idiots. i wish everyone would buy M3s. the brakes would almost eliminate rear enders, and the "cover your mistakes" handling would reduce accidents greatly. for the track, i guess it depends on your goals. if you wanna go fast M3s are great. not many cars get around a track faster. you can probably learn 85% of what you need to know in an M3 but if you want to learn that last 15% you sould get a different car. i sold my M3 track car, bought a pampered stock M3, and am getting something else for the track. the top two on my list now are 2002 or 1st gen rx7. both are cheap, rear drive, lots of that "middle ground" handling you need to get used to... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Brake rotors - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:43:05 -0700 From: "Jim Bassett" <jbassett@mayannetworks.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Brake rotors > What's the group's opinion on the various rotor options available? Personally, I've had good success using, on street & track, Brembo rotors. They are significantly less costly that BMW rotors ($90/pair locally - SF Bay Area), and for the use I put them through they perform fine. Another good option are the Balo rotors from Steve D'G - $120/pair. Either of these options should work for any application just short of all-out racing. I tried a set of Euro floating rotors as track rotors, and warped them (mainly due to my poor braking technique). But at ~$250/pair, using them just doesn't make economic sense for me. I've not used cross-drilled rotors, but IMO, unless you're racing, they don't provide any benefit. You didn't mention the type of use you'll put them through, but my opinion is to go with the Brembos or Balos. Cheers, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 - with new set of Brembos for the track, cryo'd by: http://www.stopyoucold.com/
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#4. handling of the m3 vs 318ti - from Scott Smith
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:43:59 -0700 From: Scott Smith <ssmith@akamai.com> Subject: handling of the m3 vs 318ti just because you have a "high" horsepower (I never considered 240hp high) car doesn't mean that you have to drive it like an idiot. it *is* possible to learn to drive an M3 fast without driving other slower cars. I went to Thunderhill on a Friday test and tune session and put 160 miles on my car. Because of the miles and the 90+ degree weather, I took it easy on speed for most of the sessions (I didn't want to wear down brakes or fatigue myself). So instead on each turn I would pick a speed and enter the turn at that speed. I would go down the straight just a little faster, brake a little for better turn in, then practice the turn at that speed. I would evaluate it afterwards and increase the speed on each lap until I felt near the edge. Doing that showed me how much speed was available at various corners. But then of course at the end of the day I put it all together and drove flat out! can't resist for too long... driving on the track isn't necessarily about always driving at the edge, lap after lap. you don't necessarily learn well that way. Take time out to just practice new things. Like they always say, "when you go out, pick something to work on and focus on it the entire session." Scott '97 M3 '96 911TT (recent purchase... now that's power!)
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#5. Re: Brake rotors - from tsalva@ix.netcom.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:10:26 -0400 (EDT) From: tsalva@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Brake rotors Marcus, I have had very good experience with the euro floating rotors on my 98 M3/4. After warping the orig. front rotors at the track last year, I put on the floaters ($108./each incl. shipping from Nick Alexander Imports @ 800-800-6425 - contact Joe Chavez) on and have driven 2x driving schools with stock pads since with no problems. Thomas 98 M3/4 - euro floaters, VDO's, shark injected, Schroth Rallye 4s Porterfield R4S F&R going on tomorrow Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:15:55 -0500 From: "Marcus Groenig - SAS(Yield)" <MGroenig@SAS.Samsung.com> Subject: Brake rotors Listers, Thanks to the E36M3 list I have a new stainless brake line (to replace the one I sheared the fitting off of) on its way as we speak. This list really is a great resource! Now, I've got another question for the group. I replaced the pads on my old rotors and noticed they were getting a little thin (there is a significant lip of unworn material around the edge of the rotor). On top of that, the new pads are dragging on some raised surfaces (I think) on the old rotors, making some interesting sounds. I'm going to need new rotors. What's the group's opinion on the various rotor options available? I've heard good things about the euro M3 floating rotors, as they are quite resistant to warpage. How about cross drilled or slotted rotors? I have heard that typical cross drilled rotors can fracture around the drill holes due to micro-cracks from the drilling process. I doubt that I drive my car hard enough to cause this kind of fracture, but I'm concerned nonetheless. The dissipation of gas buildup allowed by the drilled or slotted rotors sounds like a big bonus though... Thanks for your opinions, Marcus '95 M3 needs new rotors
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#6. Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti - from Seth Thomas
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:20:29 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti I agree with being able to learn to drive an M3 fast but it is easier to master. There is one thing to consider here and that is first time students are showing up in M3s prepped out like all of ours are. They are wanting to learn to go fast and we are stuck in the passenger seat trying to tell Mr. Unsmooth here what he is doing wrong when the car is covering that up. Plus at this point in the game they don't have a clue how to go about learning to drive fast like you did. If you are a beginner, then you are an exception to the rule. I for one would rather be in a 318ti with this guy going 115 at Road Atlanta vs 130+ in an M3. It is just a little more relaxing. But the slower car I feel teaches these guys more patience. You learn to drive this slow car fast and when you get into a faster car it is night and day. Take one of my freinds who used to race a 2002. Here is a slow car and he drove the piss out of it. He then gets an 1988 M5 and the difference is night and day. Him driving the M5 is purely amazing. He is very smooth and very fast. How did he learn to be smooth? It was from driving the 2002 and knowing that every little movement of the wheel costs you exit speed. He now has an E30 with an E36 325 motor in it. This car eats E36s for lunch at the track. But all of this is my opinion. I for one love the E36 and have learned to drive it very fast. I have only taken the 318ti out once and can tell you this is a better beginner car. Seth Thomas www.m3ltw.com www.m3power.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Smith <ssmith@akamai.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 2:53 PM Subject: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:43:59 -0700 > From: Scott Smith <ssmith@akamai.com> > Subject: handling of the m3 vs 318ti > > just because you have a "high" horsepower (I never considered 240hp > high) car doesn't mean that you have to drive it like an idiot. it > *is* possible to learn to drive an M3 fast without driving other > slower cars. > > I went to Thunderhill on a Friday test and tune session and put 160 > miles on my car. Because of the miles and the 90+ degree weather, I > took it easy on speed for most of the sessions (I didn't want to wear > down brakes or fatigue myself). So instead on each turn I would pick > a speed and enter the turn at that speed. I would go down the > straight just a little faster, brake a little for better turn in, then > practice the turn at that speed. I would evaluate it afterwards and > increase the speed on each lap until I felt near the edge. Doing that > showed me how much speed was available at various corners. > > But then of course at the end of the day I put it all together and > drove flat out! can't resist for too long... > > > driving on the track isn't necessarily about always driving at the > edge, lap after lap. you don't necessarily learn well that way. Take > time out to just practice new things. Like they always say, "when you > go out, pick something to work on and focus on it the entire session." > > Scott > > '97 M3 > '96 911TT (recent purchase... now that's power!) > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* > >
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#7. RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from David Ngo
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:19:57 -0400 From: David Ngo <dngo@commvault.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada I'm no professional driver, but I do this all the time for fun at autocrosses (and when I'm coming to work and there's no one in our parking lot.) I've always felt very much in control and that recovery from a tail-out turn was very easy. Perhaps since I've never owned another rear wheel drive car or attempted to drive my previous cars as hard as my M3 that I think the M3 is forgiving. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Hester [mailto:seanh_race@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 2:34 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada <snip> > at coned excercises at our schools you see (and hear) 525s, > 2002s and almost > any car (exceot M3s) sliding around. they overcook a corner, > the tail comes > out, they slide around it and everyone claps and says "woo > hoo wan't that > fun?!" > > do you see M3s do that? no. never. nada. nuh-uh. > > have any of you ever done that in an M3? if not, go try. > you won't be able > to do it. i'll pay $100 to anyone that can do that for me in > an M3. but > i'll only pay you the $100 if after you do it in an M3, you > admit that EVERY > OTHER CAR ON THE PLANET would be easier to perform that stunt in. >
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#8. Re: [E36M3] M3 On-Limit Handling - from Roy Kao
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:36:41 EDT From: "Roy Kao" <bimmerphile@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] M3 On-Limit Handling I'll throw my $0.02 in... The E36 M3 is an extremely forgiving car with high limits, but there are limits. However, with such high limits comes a high price and that price is when a driver breaches those high limits, it usually ends in tears. I've seen a few E36 M3s now having gone on off-road excursions and the results are usually not pretty. If one's lucky, it's a control arm ripped from the car; on the other end of the spectrum, the cars are written off. I remember reading in the magazine Bimmer last year or the year before and Jay Jones wrote an article are instructing at Laguna Seca. It seems that the number of students who bring very prepared E36 M3s armed to the teeth with R-compounds and the various suspension and engine modifications have meant an alarming rise in the demand for Gravol by the instructors. Let's not kid ourselves, these cars are very tolerant of our driver errors on the track, errors that will likely have us going backwards into a barrier in other so-called "sports or performance" cars. I certainly don't believe for a second that I am where the car is at in terms of abilities because if I was, I'd be nailing all the apexes and with consistent exit and entry speeds in corners all over the track... I know I can...I know I can... Roy '99 M3/2 (Still a much better car than my limited abilities can appreciate...) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any - from Ken Robb
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:55:56 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any nominations? a stock e36 325i or 325is would be good and relatively cheap and available. Pieter Van Dien wrote: > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:44:55 -0400 > From: "Pieter Van Dien" <pvd1@worldnet.att.net> > Subject: Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any nominations? > > As to the handling characteristics of the M3, I think the consensus is that > this is not a car for beginners. While I wouldn't say I'm a beginner per se, > I have a lot to learn and I look forward to doing so with a reasonably safe > platform. If the M3 is too fast and transitions too quickly, what are > everone's suggestions for a good (read safe, predictable AND fun) driving > school car, auto-x and future Solo I STREETABLE vehicle: one suggestion from > within the BMW family and one from without with a preference for rear-wheel > drive. > > My nominations would be: BMW-- 1995-99 318ti > OTHER-- 2000+ turbo VW GTI (may > become very competitive in Solo II) > 1999+ > Miata--for slow auto-xs only, too dangerous for track even with roll bar > > Piete > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
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#10. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Ken Robb
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:57:44 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada I agree with Ron. Ken Robb Ron Katona wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:14:07 -0400 > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada > > Sean Hester wrote: > > the M3 is designed to not slide. and it's really good at it. so good at > > it, that by the time things are bad enough to be "bad" you go from > > "everything's perfect" to "i'm spinning" with little to no warning. less > > warning then every other car (street car or race car) i've ever driven. > > I'm almost shocked to hear this! My impression of the E36 M3's handling > is that it's so benign and communicative that it's almost boring to > drive it near the limits. Yes, I've tracked the car on R1s more than > once, did the skid pad exercises, and do a ton of autocross. It's > interesting that there can be such a gulf in opinion on the car's > handling. I'm not Schumacher (not even Ralph), but neither am I slow and > I just never had anything approaching a "snap" oversteer in my '95. I'm > scratching my head trying to figure out why my M3 is OK, while others' > M3s are mean, nasty, ugly, ill handling beasts! > > I've got more autocross experience than track time with the M3, but I've > just never found the car remotely twitchy or difficult to recover. I've > had the rear end step out at Summit Point in the moderately fast (I > guess ~85) turn 10 and require only a small correction. I've had bigger > slides in slower corners there without drama. I've had big 45 degree > tail out slides resulting from stupidity on autocross courses recovered > despite my best efforts to jab at the controls. Are we driving the same > car? > > Have you ever driven a Miata in the rain? Now that's a twitchy little > b*tch! I recently drove a C5 Vette at an autocross and although it's > very benign as well (and damn fast), the instant and massive torque > combined with a poor view of the outside world makes it more difficult > to drive than the M3 also. I've never driven an RX-7 TT, but I've heard > that when the second turbo kicks in, you better know what exactly you're > doing. My 318ti was more tricky at speed due to the old E30 style rear > suspension. They lose camber after a certain amount of suspension travel > because of the geometry of the semi-trailing arm setup. They can be fun > rides despite the lack of power because they have both good grip, and > the twitchy rear end - more "personality" than the E36 M3. > > The first time I was on a skid pad with the M3 after being used to the > ti, I couldn't get the M3's tail to kick out - I had to be what I > considered brutally un-smooth with the throttle to make things happen. > the lower powered ti would happily transition from power understeer to > trailing throttle oversteer without much coaxing. Maybe it was learning > performance driving in that car that gives me a different perspective on > the M3? > > For the record, I've had my car on the track on street tires with stock > suspension, R1s with stock suspension, in an autocross with both those > setups, and autocrossed with all of Conforti's tricks and a greatly > stiffened and lowered suspension and Hoosiers. Haven't tracked that last > setup yet. > > If someone who I knew had a significant amount of track experience > complained to me about snap oversteer in an M3, I'd immediately suggest > that they check tire pressure, then alignments, then shocks, then > bushings, then control arms and ball joints, then a frame shop to see if > the car's straight. I know Sean has a lot of track experience, more than > me probably. > > So what's causing the big differences in opinion on this? Car setup? > Worn bushings and suspensions? Driving styles? Tire brands or pressures? > All of the above? > -- > Ron Katona > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/