-------------------- 1 --------------------
#1. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling - from Ken Robb
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:59:38 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling AMEN! Oh no, I must be preaching again. Ken Robb Donna Seeley wrote: > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:33:23 -0700 > From: Donna Seeley <dseeley@infoasis.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling > > Ron, > > I'll see if I can anticipate Ken Robb's answer. :) > > I'd guess driving style is the biggest reason you've never had the M3 snap > around. If you've driven a Miata in the rain and lived to tell about it <g>, > you're probably very smooth with the steering and throttle. > > How's that, Ken? > > Donna > ------- > 88 M3, track car > 95 330isA, super-commuter > http://www.stopyoucold.com > > > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > > > > I just never had anything approaching a "snap" oversteer in my '95. I'm > > scratching my head trying to figure out why my M3 is OK, while others' > > M3s are mean, nasty, ugly, ill handling beasts! > > > > Have you ever driven a Miata in the rain? Now that's a twitchy little > > b*tch! > > > > So what's causing the big differences in opinion on this? Car setup? > > Worn bushings and suspensions? Driving styles? Tire brands or pressures? > > All of the above? > > -- > > Ron Katona > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
-------------------- 2 --------------------
#2. Re: [E36M3] handling characteristics - from Ken Robb
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:23:49 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling characteristics I think A. Kalman just wrote some good thoughts about this. If you are a beginner, I do think that you would learn more driving the whee out of a lesser car with lower limits than in any M3. You could dance around the limits of traction and gain the car sense and skills that affords, while travelling at relatively low and unintimidating speeds. If you lose it the slower speed will allow you more time/room to gather it up before you leave the track. If you leave the track you are more likely to stop before you hit something and if you do hit something the impact will be less. Okay, but I don't want to drive a crappy car and I don't have to and neither do those of us on this list. Most of us have the best compromise between sport and utility [not suv utility] I can think of. My sedan seats 4 in cozy comfort, rides ok, pulls from 2,000rpm, goes pretty damn fast and has great brakes and handling and averages 20mpg overall. So what I was implying in the previous post[heck I thought I came right out and said it] is that if you have a stock m3 you have a fabulous car and if you are not using all of its inherent abilities you are wasting $ and giving up other benefits like ride comfort, load-carrying capacity, and clearance to perhaps raise the car's potential on a smooth race track even farther above your ability to utilize it. Driving a stock m3 to its limit on public roads is almost impossible and surely unadviseable---it is just so good. Keep in mind that the super-stiff suspension we love on a smooth track can have the car skittering over the bumps and ripples common on public roads and right off into the weeds. Thanks, advocate. Ken Robb "DiVincenti, A.J." wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:02:46 -0500 > From: "DiVincenti, A.J." <ADiVin@lsusd.lsuhsc.edu> > Subject: handling characteristics > > Kenn Robb said:. > "So I would say that until you are driving the perfect lap and using > everything your stock car can give, you are wasting your $ and giving up > comfort and clearance for nothing more than appearance and something to talk > about while bench racing...." > Well, where do we draw the line? Why don't we all drive Neons until our > abilities are up to stock M3 levels. I'm sure not everyone on this list is > using everything the stock M3 can give, so we wasted our money for nothing > more than appearance -right? After all, Neons are more predictable. > I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just playing devils advocate > aj. > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
-------------------- 3 --------------------
#3. m3 handling - from Michael Ting
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:29:31 -0500 From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu> Subject: m3 handling Just a comment, I'm sure that you guys are familiar with the British magazine BMW Car. Once they did a review comparing the E36 M3 and the EVO version. If I remember correctly, the writer did say that the M3 has a very high limit, and you have to be going really fast to push its limits. However, he also said that when you are over the limit, the car gives almost no warning, and it just snaps loose. By then, a race driver skill is needed to be able to recover the car. Michael Ting --------------------
-------------------- 4 --------------------
#4. Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any - from Ken Robb
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:30:37 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any actually you have to do this in every car to be fast relative to others in similar cars, otherwise what would be the point of spec racing? Seth Thomas wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:20:38 -0400 > From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any > > I would have to agree with Ron here. I have a 318ti that I bought this > year. Very nice, slow car but man does this car handle great. It is one of > the old TC Kline club racers. Does it out handle my M3? I think so but the > M3 is faster because of its HP advantage. The ti is just fun as you can > slide it around a little and embarrass M3s. I took it to Road Atlanta in > March and I learned a lot in the car. It made me understand how to take a > turn faster as you don't have the power to comensate for your mistake. You > learn how to turn in, what a good speed is and how to finish a turn carrying > the most speed you can. You don't have to do this with an M3 as the power > just pulls you out and makes up for your mistakes. So if I could do it all > over again and become a beginner again I would definately drive a 318ti. > You will get passed but I will guarentee you that you will be a better > driver if you learn in a car like that. Plus you should see the looks of M3 > dirvers when they give you the pass signal and they see a shortened 3 series > passing them. Not the best feeling I imagine. > > Seth Thomas > www.m3ltw.com > www.m3power.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? > Any > > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:37:57 -0400 > > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car > then? Any > > nominations? > > > > Andrew E. Kalman wrote; > > > I thing the best car for a beginner to learn on is moderately fast, with > > > good brakes, and squealy, not-very-grippy tires. Just about any Alfa > comes > > > to mind, but of course the newest ones are 7 years old (and > convertibles -- > > > a no-no that you already recognize). > > > > I second that. My first school was in a 318ti on all season radials. > > That car is again on those tires and actually I've thought about taking > > it to another school in that condition just for kicks... too bad I've > > decided to sell it because it's a riot to slide around with those > > squealing tires! You do learn a lot about car control with low grip > > tires - sort of like your own private skid pad. A lot of people will > > pass you, but you'll learn a lot more. > > -- > > Ron Katona > > > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > ************************************************************* > > > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
-------------------- 5 --------------------
#5. Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti - from Sean Hester
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:39:14 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti >I would evaluate it afterwards and >increase the speed on each lap until I felt near the edge. Doing that >showed me how much speed was available at various corners. ....felt near the edge... how could you feel that? most people cannot feel that. at least not until they practice it and experience it. it took me three years of driver/racing schools to be able to "feel that" and i honestly didn't ever really "feel it" until i went and took a skid car class. (a car that's engineered to have a really really really really wide "edge" to feel) once i felt it, and knew what i was looking for, i went back to try all my normal cars. what did i find out? my rx7 race car has a pretty wide edge. the neon race cars at my local track have a pretty wide edge. my M3 has a narrow edge. would you rather learn how to "feel the edge" with a big fat edge (like in a 525, or better yet a skid car?) or with a razor thin edge (like in an M3) sure you can learn it on an M3. you could learn it on an F1 car too. (one of the few cars with a thinner edge then an M3) the fact is that we pretty much all own M3s and want to learn on our cars. but like it or not, there are better cars to learn how to "feel the edge" on. would you learn to walk a tightrope with the rope 1 foot off the ground? (skid car) or 10 feet off the ground? (525) or 100 feet? (M3) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------------- 6 --------------------
#6. Porsche's Cayenne - from Michael Ting
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:43:37 -0500 From: "Michael Ting" <lupin@purdue.edu> Subject: Porsche's Cayenne From Autoweek: According to a source, porsche's official estimate for its 449 hp turbo V8 cayenne SUV is 0-60 mph in 5.0 secs. The engine makes 442 lb-ft of torque. Uh oh. Doesn't really sound like a good news to me. I think there are more than enough bad drivers with their SUVs out there. A SUV that does 0-60 in 5.0 secs will make it even worse. What do we need a 449 hp SUV on the road for?? Bragging rights, at the most. Just my $.02. Michael Ting --------------------
-------------------- 7 --------------------
#7. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Ken Robb
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:38:10 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada I think the main point here is that when you lose a car with very high limits you lose it a very high speed and have to react at very high speed to catch it before you run out of time and real estate. Nothing wrong with the car it's just physics. Ken Robb Sean Hester wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:01:50 PDT > From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada > > >The first time I was on a skid pad with the M3 after being used to the > >ti, I couldn't get the M3's tail to kick out - I had to be what I > >considered brutally un-smooth with the throttle to make things happen. > >the lower powered ti would happily transition from power understeer to > >trailing throttle oversteer without much coaxing. Maybe it was learning > >performance driving in that car that gives me a different perspective on > >the M3? > > that's it! you said so many things in there that explain what i'm talking > about. > > i'm not trying to describe that M3s are hard to drive and want to come > around easily. i'm trying to describe that M3s handle so well that by the > time you get them "out of shape" there's almost no time to save it. > > you had to "force" your M3 to come around. while the ti would do it easily. > now... i bet (since the ti would come around so easily) that you could > happily go from "fine", to "getting wierd", back to "fine", then to "getting > wierd", to "almost spinning", to "kinda wierd", back to "fine", then to > "spinning" almost at will right? you could "control" you're "out of > controlness". > > but when you were "brutally un-smooth" with the M3 did you save it? i bet > you didn't. and THAT'S THE PROBLEM! > > joe student that i'm gonna be teaching on sunday at SIR in his M3 could be > going around the track all day "brutally un-smooth" and getting away with > it. the M3 would "cover" for him and he'll not even know he's doing it. > and as the day winds down and he's going faster and faster, one time he's > gonna be a TINY BIT TOO "brutally un-smooth" and spin his car. and then ask > me "what the heck happened? i did it just like last time." > > now... if joe student had a honda accord (or a 2002, or 525 to stay with > bmw) and was being brutally unsmooth, his car would be "getting wierd" and > he'd know it. he'd either spend the day "recovering" (since that car would > allow him too recover much easier) or he's STOP being brutally un-smooth. > the car would not "cover" his mistakes and he's be much easier to teach. > > is this making sense? > > P.S. congrats for all of you that think that M3s are easy to recover. > they're not. drive some other car at the track at the limits. you'll see > how much MORE ROOM FOR ERROR there is at the limits on almost any other car. > (even my race prepped, slammed down, stiffer then hell rx7 race car has a > larger area between "fine" and "spinning". > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
-------------------- 8 --------------------
#8. Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #365 - from wattba02@wfu.edu
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:51:45 +0000 From: wattba02@wfu.edu Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #365 Sean wrote: P.S. congrats for all of you that think that M3s are easy to recover. they're not. drive some other car at the track at the limits. you'll see how much MORE ROOM FOR ERROR there is at the limits on almost any other car. (even my race prepped, slammed down, stiffer then hell rx7 race car has a larger area between "fine" and "spinning". Sean, I see your point and I think the reason that I disagree with you is simply a matter of perception. As far as cars that I have driven on the track, the list is limted to: 95 M3 - Stock 95 M3 - Eibach/Bisteins 95 LTW - Coilovers, spring rates 1100#/1300# 95 Mustang Cobra R - full susp, 600 hp Panoz school car Of all the cars in the above list, I found the M3's to all be very easy to bring back under control once the rear end was out of shape. My father agrees with me, though though his track rides have also included a 911 Turbo Slantnose and an Acura NSX, both of which are known for spinning. The Mustang was definitely not very easy to control once the rear started coming around. The Panoz was fairly easy, but it was also riding on fairly light spring rates and high-perf street tires. I have never had a problem bringing my dad's extremely stiff (1100#/1300#) M3 back. In fact I like the car so much, I am putting the exact suspension under my new K-Prepared 325is...now if I could just get an extra 100hp, I might be able to run with him on the track. This is just a side comment, but I think its pretty funny hom many people consider the M3 a high horsepower car! Sure, in the BMW Club Racing world, an E36 M3 making 300hp can dominate a race. But have you guys ever seen any other form of racing?? In every professional series (ALMS, World Challenge, Motorola Cup, etc.) that I can think of, the M3 ranks at or very near the bottom of the list when it comes to horsepower. Only because the car handles so well is it able to compete in the "real" world of sportscar racing. -Bryan Watts 95 M3 92 325is K-Prepared P.S. Someone posted earlier that someone looking for a predictable car for the track should avoid an E36 M3. Within the same paragraph they suggested the same person get a Formula Ford. I hope they were kidding! I have spent all of 10-12 laps in a Formula car and can say that it is in NO way a predictable car at the limit, especially not the ones thay depend on downforce to increase their cornerning ability. Exceed the limit and you lose all downforce, then you are only left with mechanical grip of the tires which was exceeded way before you exceeded the limits of the car with downforce.
-------------------- 9 --------------------
#9. RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Sean Hester
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:52:20 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada >I'm no professional driver, but I do this all the time for fun at >autocrosses (and when I'm coming to work and there's no one in our parking >lot.) I've always felt very much in control and that recovery from a >tail-out turn was very easy. Perhaps since I've never owned another rear >wheel drive car or attempted to drive my previous cars as hard as my M3 >that >I think the M3 is forgiving. yeah i think we all need to compare... 3 years ago, when i started tracking/racing cars all i had was my M3. i drove it for 2 years and i drove it really well. i thought it was the best handling car ever, and that it was SO easy to drive fast. then i branched out. i drove several race cars, i drove a skid car, i drove other people's cars as an instructor. and you know what? they were all easier to drive at the limit, with much more room in the "sliding but not spinning" area then my M3. as i hadn't been in my M3 in a while, i figured i was just a better driver now. so i took the M3 out to "hang the tail out" for a few laps like i do in every other car i drive these days. but alas... it really was much harder to do. and definetly not as easy or fun as in the other cars. after one session i gave up. (not driving the car, just trying to drive it close to the edge) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------------- 10 --------------------
#10. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling - from Seth Thomas
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:03:03 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling > However, he also said that when you are over the limit, the car gives almost > no warning, and it just snaps loose. By then, a race driver skill is needed > to be able to recover the car. > > > > Michael Ting Exactly what we have been saying the whole time. To learn this skill level, this is not the ideal car. Especially for those beginners(first timers) who modify their cars and go to the track. That reminds me of when I let one of my freinds drive my LTW at the track once. This was his first time on the track and I was his instructor. This was a slow track and I was having a lazy day so we ran on street tires and stock pads. This guy was not smooth. The LTW with the modified suspension helped him out many times. He was fast around the track but he should have been considering the car he was in. I think if he had driven the ti he would have learned more. Why is that? Because some of the mistakes he was making would have slowed the ti down too much for the turns. He would have had to learn to be smoother in order to go faster. Don't get me wrong in that I think the M3 is a great track car. I love mine and would not trade it for anything not even an E46 M3. I love it that much. But I also think the ti is a fun car. I always did want a Neon ACR to run at the track. That would be fun as you could just go full throttle all the way around.... almost. It would be a fun, cheap car to run. Seth Thomas www.m3ltw.com www.m3power.com
-------------------- 11 --------------------
#11. handling characteristics - from Ed Tang
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:55:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Tang <etangf1@yahoo.com> Subject: handling characteristics Hi all, I believe I'm in the rear wheel drive school. I've only had one front driver and it was a Maxima. Prior to that a 240 SX and a 944. The first month with the Maxima was great. I didn't really drive it hard. I did my first autocross event in '98 and absolutely hated the car. I knew the car was heavy so I drove a friend's prepared Integra Type-R to see if it really was a front wheel drive thing that was throwing me off. It was a wonderful car and it just lacked the feel I probably got used to with a rear driver. I then tried another friend's MR2 Turbo during the fun runs. God, I knew I had to get a rear driver. Thus, the M3 was now in the stable. I autocrossed my stock M3 during '99 and I have never looked back. I haven't been autocrossing much this year but I have gone to non BMW events where the car was grouped in CSP running with those little front drivers. It wasn't easy walking away from lighter cars with shorter wheelbases but I managed. I've been to five track events, including some with the NSX club. The car is just grand on a track. No handling complaints. The point is, I was always used to a rear driver and drove the Maxima and other front drivers like one. If you've had your VW for years, it could be that you are driving the M3 like a front driver. It's just a theory based on my experience. Ed Tang 95 Cosmos M3 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/
-------------------- 12 --------------------
#12. Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti - from Ken Robb
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:50:44 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti some months ago I suggested that someone take his wife's 525i w/all-season tires to his first driving school instead of his modified m3, because I knew he would learn more. Sheesh, the flames I got then. It's nice to have some support of that advice now. Sean Hester wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:39:14 PDT > From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti > > >I would evaluate it afterwards and > >increase the speed on each lap until I felt near the edge. Doing that > >showed me how much speed was available at various corners. > > ...felt near the edge... how could you feel that? most people cannot feel > that. at least not until they practice it and experience it. it took me > three years of driver/racing schools to be able to "feel that" and i > honestly didn't ever really "feel it" until i went and took a skid car > class. (a car that's engineered to have a really really really really wide > "edge" to feel) once i felt it, and knew what i was looking for, i went > back to try all my normal cars. > > what did i find out? my rx7 race car has a pretty wide edge. the neon race > cars at my local track have a pretty wide edge. my M3 has a narrow edge. > > would you rather learn how to "feel the edge" with a big fat edge (like in a > 525, or better yet a skid car?) or with a razor thin edge (like in an M3) > > sure you can learn it on an M3. you could learn it on an F1 car too. (one > of the few cars with a thinner edge then an M3) the fact is that we pretty > much all own M3s and want to learn on our cars. but like it or not, there > are better cars to learn how to "feel the edge" on. > > would you learn to walk a tightrope with the rope 1 foot off the ground? > (skid car) or 10 feet off the ground? (525) or 100 feet? (M3) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
-------------------- 13 --------------------
#13. Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any - from Seth Thomas
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:07:28 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any I agree with you once again but I don't think you would learn to do this as quickly in the M3 as you would in something slower. Not necassarily a 318ti but something like that is what I would want to learn in. I guess I will find out as I am going to the Skip Barber school at Mid Ohio next week. Can't wait for that. Then I get to see how good I really am. Seth Thomas www.m3ltw.com www.m3power.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:30:37 -0700 > From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any > > actually you have to do this in every car to be fast relative to others in similar > cars, otherwise what would be the point of spec racing? > > Seth Thomas wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:20:38 -0400 > > From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? Any > > > > I would have to agree with Ron here. I have a 318ti that I bought this > > year. Very nice, slow car but man does this car handle great. It is one of > > the old TC Kline club racers. Does it out handle my M3? I think so but the > > M3 is faster because of its HP advantage. The ti is just fun as you can > > slide it around a little and embarrass M3s. I took it to Road Atlanta in > > March and I learned a lot in the car. It made me understand how to take a > > turn faster as you don't have the power to comensate for your mistake. You > > learn how to turn in, what a good speed is and how to finish a turn carrying > > the most speed you can. You don't have to do this with an M3 as the power > > just pulls you out and makes up for your mistakes. So if I could do it all > > over again and become a beginner again I would definately drive a 318ti. > > You will get passed but I will guarentee you that you will be a better > > driver if you learn in a car like that. Plus you should see the looks of M3 > > dirvers when they give you the pass signal and they see a shortened 3 series > > passing them. Not the best feeling I imagine. > > > > Seth Thomas > > www.m3ltw.com > > www.m3power.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > > To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> > > Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:43 AM > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car then? > > Any > > > > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:37:57 -0400 > > > From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> > > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Driving Schools/Auto-xing-If not an M3, what car > > then? Any > > > nominations? > > > > > > Andrew E. Kalman wrote; > > > > I thing the best car for a beginner to learn on is moderately fast, with > > > > good brakes, and squealy, not-very-grippy tires. Just about any Alfa > > comes > > > > to mind, but of course the newest ones are 7 years old (and > > convertibles -- > > > > a no-no that you already recognize). > > > > > > I second that. My first school was in a 318ti on all season radials. > > > That car is again on those tires and actually I've thought about taking > > > it to another school in that condition just for kicks... too bad I've > > > decided to sell it because it's a riot to slide around with those > > > squealing tires! You do learn a lot about car control with low grip > > > tires - sort of like your own private skid pad. A lot of people will > > > pass you, but you'll learn a lot more. > > > -- > > > Ron Katona > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************* > > > List Commands > > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > > ************************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > ************************************************************* > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------- > Click here for Free Video!! > http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* > >
-------------------- 14 --------------------
#14. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Sean Hester
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:59:32 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada >I think the main point here is that when you lose a car with very high >limits >you lose it a very high speed and have to react at very high speed to catch >it >before you run out of time and real estate. Nothing wrong with the car it's >just >physics. Ken Robb hmmm... that's probably a large part of it. (physics) compared to my racing rx7, my M3 weighs 2 times as much, has a better suspension, and has tires twice as wide. so... when the tires on an M3 "let go" you're going faster, you've got more weight going in the wrong direction, and you've got 2 times as much mass to "correct". all that adds up to "harder to fix". even comapred to a vormula v (which has higher limits then an M3) you're in worse trouble, physics wise, because of all the additional weight, and a center of gravity 2 times higher. this again makes the formula v easier to "reel in" than an M3. maybe the M3 handles too well for it's own good. ;-) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
-------------------- 15 --------------------
#15. Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #365 - from Sean Hester
Top
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:02:38 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 #365 >P.S. congrats for all of you that think that M3s are easy to recover. >they're not. drive some other car at the track at the limits. you'll see >how much MORE ROOM FOR ERROR there is at the limits on almost any other >car. > (even my race prepped, slammed down, stiffer then hell rx7 race car has >a >larger area between "fine" and "spinning". > >Sean, I see your point and I think the reason that I disagree with you is >simply a matter of perception. As far as cars that I have driven on the >track, >the list is limted to: > >95 M3 - Stock >95 M3 - Eibach/Bisteins >95 LTW - Coilovers, spring rates 1100#/1300# >95 Mustang Cobra R - full susp, 600 hp >Panoz school car > >Of all the cars in the above list, I found the M3's to all be very easy to >bring back under control once the rear end was out of shape. i'd expect a mustang to be a bit easier to deal with. maybe not a race prepped one. but i'd bet a stock mustang is easier to deal with then a stock M3. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com