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#1. Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:04:56 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] handling of the m3 vs 318ti >some months ago I suggested that someone take his wife's 525i w/all-season >tires >to his first driving school instead of his modified m3, because I knew he >would >learn more. Sheesh, the flames I got then. It's nice to have some support >of >that advice now. hey! i agreed with you then. ;-P it does matter though what the goal is. more learning in the 525 and more fun (short term) in the M3. ;-) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#2. Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from Ken Robb
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:17:15 -0700 From: Ken Robb <kenrobb@willisallen.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada well I think NASCAR guys say"push" or "loose" for understeer vs.oversteer when discussing car setup. Stock BMWs are setup for push,as are most stock street cars. The reasoning being if you go into a corner too fast or get on the gas too soon the car will plow straight ahead, you will say "Oh rats" and back off the gas or jump on the brakes, either of which will transfer weight to the front and help the car turn while losing speed. This way an untrained driver may escape disaster. A car with a "loose" setup that goes in too fast will have the back trying to come around with no further input from the driver. If he lifts or brakes the rotation will only increase and the car spins off. See "Unsafe at any Speed" by R. Nader or any stock early Porsche. To save a loose car in this situation requires judicious application of throttle to balance the car and that, being counterintuitive, requires lots of training and practice. The courts have decided that if a car goes off nose-first the driver was going too fast for conditions, but if it goes off ass first it was a design flaw so try and find a stock car that oversteers. I have driven modified M3's which had been set up on the loose side and they can be driven tail out easily. Anyone who has ridden w/ Dan Tackett in his M3 can attest to this. But if you are trying to force a car designed for understeer to drive loose you are not going to be very successful. I have been amazed at the wide variation in m3 handling I have experienced driving student cars with all kinds of mods. I first met Michael Lord at Laguna Seca in a rage. I was a group leader and one of my instructors had spun Lord's car on the warm up lap. He was a very experienced Camaro driver who was totaly unprepared for the somewhat loose set-up of Michael's car. It was a bone-head move and reinforced the importance of feeling out a car before you even think of going fast. Lord insisted on another instructor and he got me. I loved driving his car--it felt so lively and keen to turn on the track. I don't know if I would want it for a daily driver or not. When we get in different cars we just have to take it easy and see what each car "wants" in the way of driving style. I've done this so often I can work up to mediocre in any car in a very short time. Ken Robb Sean Hester wrote: > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:52:20 PDT > From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada > > >I'm no professional driver, but I do this all the time for fun at > >autocrosses (and when I'm coming to work and there's no one in our parking > >lot.) I've always felt very much in control and that recovery from a > >tail-out turn was very easy. Perhaps since I've never owned another rear > >wheel drive car or attempted to drive my previous cars as hard as my M3 > >that > >I think the M3 is forgiving. > > yeah i think we all need to compare... > > 3 years ago, when i started tracking/racing cars all i had was my M3. i > drove it for 2 years and i drove it really well. i thought it was the best > handling car ever, and that it was SO easy to drive fast. > > then i branched out. i drove several race cars, i drove a skid car, i drove > other people's cars as an instructor. > > and you know what? they were all easier to drive at the limit, with much > more room in the "sliding but not spinning" area then my M3. as i hadn't > been in my M3 in a while, i figured i was just a better driver now. so i > took the M3 out to "hang the tail out" for a few laps like i do in every > other car i drive these days. but alas... it really was much harder to do. > and definetly not as easy or fun as in the other cars. after one session > i gave up. (not driving the car, just trying to drive it close to the edge) > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
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#3. RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada - from MDadgar@handspring.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:35:58 -0700 From: MDadgar@handspring.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] m3 handling ... sedan vs coupe... yada yada yada Ken wrote: > The courts have decided that if a car goes off nose-first the > driver was going too fast for conditions, but if it goes off ass > first it was a design flaw so try and find a stock car that > oversteers. Example of this philosophy: E39 528i. Good luck getting this thing to spin or even step out, even on a skidpad. My wife had a HELL of a time learning to throttle-steer at the Car Control Clinic until she moved over to my E36 M3 (yes, the traction control was switched off on the 5-er). The 528i will not hang the tail out for anything - no way, no how. Now she'll happily spin my M3 at GGC autocrosses. :) - Mark '95 M3 '97 528i 5-spd '88 M3, Hennarot, new Recaro SPG's and 5-point belts - let's go racin'! ---- Mark Dadgar - Product Manager, Accessories (650) 230-5037 voice - (650) 230-2100 fax mdadgar@handspring.com - Handspring, Inc. "wide awake on the edge of the world" - Marillion Check out Visor at www.handspring.com!
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#4. waz ... M3 handling.... yada yada yada... now iz xcuze me...... - from George M. Kofman
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:09:38 -0500 From: "George M. Kofman" <sdg2@execpc.com> Subject: waz ... M3 handling.... yada yada yada... now iz xcuze me...... Dear Bryan (& Co.); I guess it be me who started this G-d forsaken thread.... >-Bryan Watts >95 M3 >92 325is K-Prepared > >P.S. Someone posted earlier that someone looking for a predictable car for the >track should avoid an E36 M3. I suppose with all this M3 handling stuff going back and forth, it's hard to keep track as to who said what. Therefore, I shall restate my position:. I said that if you want more predictable handlng, get an S4 (AWD... AWD!!!!!!). Realizing that the folks on this digest also may have a p-car preference, I suggested a 996 (EZ to drive vs. old 911's) or a 993. Why S4 ? this car will make a pork chop look like Kosher salami. I quote a sales rep at the Audi Exchange two days ago, "it compensates for your mistakes and you can go faster through corners. and if you get in trouble, the AWD takes care of you." But it is a softer-sprung car, and with street tires you should find the limit w/o going overboard. laws of physics still apply though. the big issue is WEIGHT. these cars (including M3's) are PIGS... 3600# for an S4 ? 3200-3400# for the M3 ? now compare this to teh 1200# Formula Dodge or Lotus Caterham 7. which is easier to toss into a turn ? > Within the same paragraph they suggested the same person get a Formula Ford. I hope they were kidding! you missed that I said "or get the FF and a copy of the book by the great Carl Lopez titled GOING FASTER." a must for all of us to read. REALLY. > I have spent all of 10-12 laps in a Formula car and can say that it is in NO way a predictable car >at the limit, especially not the ones thay depend on downforce to increase >their cornerning ability. Exceed the limit and you lose all downforce, then >you are only left with mechanical grip of the tires which was exceeded way >before you exceeded the limits of the car with downforce. practice more car control. I've done a hundred+ of laps in a Skip Barber Formula Dodge @ Laguna Seca (neon 2L motor, raynard frame, intrepid brakes, STREET tires, no abs :) and can tell you that after one lap at Laguna Seca I told myself "this thing is better than my M3 anytime." I was able to bring it back from a 45% slide; 90%+ slides are called spins. 10-20 degree slides are fun. I've done a 360 and kept going in the right direction. do that in your or my M3... Sean, please jump in anytime you feel like it... I've done a car control clinic and we used a Neon, Dodge Dakota, and a Viper GTS ACR. I really liked the NEON. very predictable. VERY. the GTS ACR scared the absolute shit out of me. probably because I would have been liable for some of the damages if I would have bent it. I've done a lapping day at Road America in the new Formula Dodge RT/2000 car with wings and slicks, and it obviously handles better. better how ? MORE GRIP. thus much higher limit. and while I found the limit in the old car on street tires, I have not done so in the new car. but have seen three unlucky guys who did, and it cost them a rear wing plus much more. but I digress. GET the book. LEARN from it. PRACTICE what you have learned in a control entironment. SEAT TIME. there is no substitute. SUMMARY: And oh, yeah, the point I was making was that your or my M3 is a STREET car and not a TRACK car. hence, the book and a real race car. BTW - did anyone see Zonta spin after attempting to recover from a spin the way Vellenue did in qualifying at A1 ? car control ! GMK '97 M3 sedan; bone stock +crossbrace +A032R +PF90's +schroth rallye-3 harnesses '00 Skip Barger Formula Dodge RT/2000 - $795/lapping day :-) '91 Wife who is going to kill me if I don't get home in 10 min. BFN. '00 Skip Barber Competition Lic# (heck, the wallet is in the M3. the laptop isn't)
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#5. Re: m3 handling ... yada yada yada - from Roger Baker
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:37:36 -0700 From: Roger Baker <rbaker@velodyne.com> Subject: Re: m3 handling ... yada yada yada No offense to the driving skill of any other people, but I find the M3's handling characteristics VERY benign, communicative & easy to modulate. Yes, I have slid my car in track conditions and kept it fully controlled. No, it's not my desire to "hang it out" but when you push it, this inevitably happens. Maybe the way I learned to drive or the vehicles I have owned/tracked have seriously slanted my view of what "snap oversteer" is. I learned in slower cars & muscle cars, then moved on to Corvette's and the like so I learned to drive smooth early on. I also learned what it was like to drive some cars that really teach you the meaning of "snap oversteer" (high torque short wheelbase stuff, Mustangs, Cobra's, Vettes). After those, the M3 is so benign it's not an issue to me. What I definitely agree with is the number of "novice" drivers showing up with a heavily modified M3 that's so far beyond their abilities, that when they do exceed the limits they have no hope of catching it. Learn to learn with a stock car and they would be much better off. Unfortunately, most people don't listen when you tell them that. That's my take on it. Roger Baker
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#6. Re: [E36M3] waz ... M3 handling.... yada yada yada... now iz xcuze me...... - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:20:37 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] waz ... M3 handling.... yada yada yada... now iz xcuze me...... >I suppose with all this M3 handling stuff going back and forth, it's hard >to >keep track as to who said what. Therefore, I shall restate my position:. >I >said that if you want more predictable handlng, get an S4 (AWD... >AWD!!!!!!) i'd hope that if you have a computer "helping" you drive that it would be easier. ;-) i dunno if the computer could get the car around the track FASTER then i could, but i'm sure it could do it safer. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#7. Rotor groove? - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:52:28 -0400 From: "Paul Elliott" <pelliott@rcn.com> Subject: Rotor groove? As I was gassing up tonight, I took my usual examination walk around, and noticed something which caught my attention..I dont think it requires any immediate action, but still , I wanted to ask about it...I noticed all my rotors looked smooth and good...But, my front left has managed to acquire a circular groove about a half inch from the outside lip. Its not all that deep, but it Is deep enough to grab a finger nail. I dont imagine one concentric groove in one rotor is enough to have to replace a pair of rotors is it? There's no perceivable braking impact. The rotors only have 15K miles on them, and theyre the stock rotors. The pads are aftermarket Rotex semi metallics, which I like alot. Rotex is a company started by the guys who used to run Frictiontech, a Raybestos subsidiary in Canada which uses a similar friction material to that in Frictiontech, and after having used Frictiontech, these are even better. I dont know what would cause one groove like this...I mean, no pebble trapped between the pad and rotor would be strong enough to score the rotor, would it? So, what then? One groove isnt enough to replace, is it, after so few miles? _____________________________ Paul Elliott '99 Alpine White M3; <20000 mi; Forged M dbl-spokes; Rotex pads; Dinan Stage II Supercharger
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#8. 95 Dinan SC Dyno #'s - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:16:50 -0400 From: "Paul Elliott" <pelliott@rcn.com> Subject: 95 Dinan SC Dyno #'s Jon, >until 6100 @ 275HP > TQ peak was 241 @ 5500 Let's see...multiply by 1.21 and you get a crank equivalent of about 330 hp and torque peak of 290 ft lbs...As I recall, that's real close to Dinan's advertised peaks for that unit on that car. Excellent. Dinan does tend to be somewhat conservative in their tuning, opting for longevity and reliability over high peaks and wow type numbers. I think your appraisal of what's going on is right on. Tuning for safety and strength. Also, I bet Matt is right also...Try it again on a 60 degree day and I bet you'll come real close to that 290 number. Do you have the powerdyne or the Vortech...Have you tried any air ducting to bring cooler air to the filter? may help some. _____________________________ Paul Elliott '99 Alpine White M3; <20000 mi; Forged M dbl-spokes; Rotex pads; Dinan Stage II Supercharger
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#9. Interior rattle - from david tow
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:56:57 PDT From: "david tow" <david_tow@hotmail.com> Subject: Interior rattle Jeff, I've got a couple of suggestions from the list. This is what one can try for interior rattles: Use talcum powder for leather creaks. Use Gummi Pfledge (part # 82 149 407 015) for window creaks. Use silicon spray for plastic rattles. Good luck! David Tow >From: "Jeff James" <jdgtrski@hotmail.com> >To: david_tow@hotmail.com >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 07:09:11 PDT > >David - I have the same problem with my '95 M3 and it drives me nuts! I >heard about the talcum powder trick, too, but haven't tried it yet. If you >come up with a good solution, please let me know. > >Thanks, >Jeff James >Seattle ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#10. M3 for track, auto-x and learning-->can the M3 be brought down a notch? - from Pieter Van Dien
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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:32:52 -0400 From: "Pieter Van Dien" <pvd1@worldnet.att.net> Subject: M3 for track, auto-x and learning-->can the M3 be brought down a notch? I don't want to mislead anyone here, I love my M3. I find it to be the best road car I have ever driven, bar none, and feel extremely safe on the street. You can dodge a thumbtack in the road if you have to let alone a tipping Excursion. I don't want to trade in the M3 for a ti, Neon, 2002, etc. and I also don't want more cars than necessary at this point, the boat is already collecting cobwebs. Is it possible to bring the M3 down to a lower level of handling for learning purposes? I'm already using street tires and cannot stress enough how beneficial this has been on auto-practice days. Going from RE71s to Khumos is dramatic. With the RE71s, I'm forced to focus on each corner, each transition, before the car goes out of control. With the Khumos, "just go down to the end and turn" mentality takes over. What else could be done to slow the transitions, for training purposes only, to bring the car into ti/325 territory (no way to lower horsepower obviously, just don't push the pedal so far)? Lower tire pressure? Softer shock settings? Remove sway bars? Piete