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#1. PTG and Euro Springs (was: RE: [E36M3] E36M3 #398) - from Ron Katona
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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 21:47:27 -0400 From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> Subject: PTG and Euro Springs (was: RE: [E36M3] E36M3 #398) NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! OK, sorry to shout but this is worthy of everyone's attention. I know Stephen is trying to help, but he's unaware of PTGs track record with Euro or LTW (or "CSL") springs. I've kept my mouth shut on this for some time, but it's time to let you know what kind of people really run BMW's factory GT race team. Rick at PTG as been pawning off BMW Motorsport RACE springs of unknown spring rate as "Lightweight" springs for some time. I say this in no uncertain terms; he's willing to tell people they are LTW springs when he knows damn well they aren't. A long time ago, they apparently did have some genuine LTW springs which they sold to some CCA'ers. Since then, they have been trying to sell these mystery Motorsport springs which Rick revealed in an e-mail to Ben Liaw some time ago (as a matter of record in the archives of this digest) that they had no idea of what the spring rates were. If you can't find these old messages in the archives, e-mail me; I've got them all. During the last NCC tour to PTG, Rick sold four sets of these springs to NCC members. On my bill, the words "Springs - Lightweight" are written. We discussed the amount of drop and increase in spring rate at length with Rick before purchasing the springs. All the time Rick assured us that these springs were a mild upgrade. We got a good deal, about 25% off retail, but the discount was not for unknown springs - it was for Lightweight springs. My car dropped 2-1/4 inches when I installed these springs. I've now gone to a coil over kit with 500# springs and I can't honestly say that the PTG springs were softer. If anything, I'd say the rates were higher. The only reason my shocks didn't blow out is that the car was basically riding on the bump stops which I left stock because I didn't expect this kind of drop. I've now trimmed them with the coil-overs. So Ron, you say, get a grip... Rick made a mistake and I'm sure Tom and the crew at PTG will be happy to return your money. Bull. We have tried many times unsuccessfully to get an refund or an audience with Tom Milner about this. Rick first claimed we installed the springs incorrectly (yeah, right). Then he claimed that he never told us that these were Lightweight springs and we only "heard" what we wanted to hear (so my bill with "Springs-Lightweight" on it means what?). Then he simply stated that they "aren't in the business of buying back springs." It pisses me off that I can't watch the PTG team race anymore without thinking of how we were taken. I used to have a very high regard for Tom and the boys. Now I know that they are strictly in the business of making money from racing and care little about their fans or BMW CCA members. Two of us who were taken are on the NCC staff. Veiled (and not so veiled) threats about not having future NCC tours to PTG were made... like we want to go back! Unfortunately, because the entire NCC shouldn't suffer from this, we will schedule another tour. I won't be there - F*%k Them! If I see them again it will be in court. The P/N on the springs does not match any US spring. The paint dots on the spring don't match any LTW M3 spring. Our best guess from talking to some SCCA racers is that these springs are intended for SCCA showroom stock racing. In fact, that's where one set ended up. It was sold privately when PTG refused for the umpteenth time to talk to us about this. Do NOT buy springs, or anything else from PTG. S Lafredo wrote: > Try PTG. > > They won't be the cheapest and they may be from 95? So make sure you > ask what you would get. > > --- Cesar Omar <cesar@cfl.rr.com> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 09:26:15 -0400 > > From: "Cesar Omar" <cesar@cfl.rr.com> > > Subject: RE: [E36M3] E36M3 #398 > > > > Can somebody help me in find out where I can buy the EURO springs for > > the > > 1997 M3 two doors. > > Thanks! > > Cesar Omar -- Ron Katona
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#2. RE:engine noises - from dbruce
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Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 22:01:33 -0400 From: dbruce <dbrucepoip@yahoo.com> Subject: RE:engine noises My M3 has 70,000 miles on it and..... On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:47:45 -0500, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:51:33 PDT >From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> >Subject: [E36M3] engine noises > snip >1. vanos gear grinding noise, at 3800rpm, and 1400rpm. pretty much the >same as my old car. No, don't hear anything like grinding. > >2. lifter noise at low rpms ALL the time. (idle to about 1600 rpm) my old >car made this noise only for the first minute before the engine was warmed >up. Nope > >3. classic "knocking". just like my 1984 dodge K-car did. heard mostly >under hard 2nd and 3rd gear acceleration, but it's VERY loud. and it >happens with almost ALL acceleration to some extent. my old car did not >make this noise. Definitely not..........bad knocking, as I am sure you already know, will kill your engine. > >4. a high pitched grind/rattle/gurgle under deceleraion. it happens when i >shift through gears. it happens ALOT LOUDER when i lift my foot off the gas >and coast while still in gear (so the engine is dragging my down) my old >car made this noise, but not as loud. Slight gurgle from the exhaust....but not unpleasant at all. > >so... do M3 engines just make the noises? is it nothing to worry about? >is it just an excuse to get the damn stereo fixed as soon as possible so i >don't hear the racket? > >or... should i let someone fix it? I would say you have a few things to worry about. I do get a whining noise between 65 and 70 mph. Sound like the exhaust may be vibrating enough to create the kinda noise you hear when you run a wet finger over a glass. Either that or my diff likes to whine. Annoying....but not to worried about it. The engine in my car is music to my ears....I keep tabs on any abnormal noise my car makes. Considering the mileage on my car........I would have your checked quickly especially with the knocking (bent valves...maybe)
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#3. FS: 97 M3 Exhaust for $125 - from Lee
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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:32:09 -0400 From: "Lee" <jlee@boo.net> Subject: FS: 97 M3 Exhaust for $125 This comes off a 97 M3 coupe with 35K miles, will sell for $125 or best offer. Item located in Washington DC Metro area thanks Jeff
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#4. 100 Watt bulbs cracked fog lights - from Simon Lloyd
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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 00:13:22 -0400 From: "Simon Lloyd" <simon_j_lloyd@yahoo.com> Subject: 100 Watt bulbs cracked fog lights Just switched in some 100 Watt bulbs into the fog lights from BavAuto about a week ago, well its rained all week and it looks like "thermal" shock has caused both foglights to spider crack when the water has hit a very hot foglight...anyone have any experience running 85 watt bulbs or should I just revert to the 55 watt factory ones??? Thanks. Simon 99 M3 Cosmos Boston, MA > -----Original Message----- > From: E36M3 [mailto:e36m3@bmwmpower.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 9:38 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] E36M3 #401 > > > This digest contains the following messages: > > 1. RE: [E36M3] engine noises > by: Sean Hester <seanh_race@hotmail.com> > 2. [E36M3] E36M3 #400 > by: <TMauceri@aol.com> > 3. RE: [E36M3] engine noises > by: Dorffer, Rich <RDORFFER@CleIndians.com> > 4. Re: [E36M3] engine noises > by: NickG <nikog@MediaOne.net> > 5. Re: [E36M3] coil overs, rear shocks > by: Mike <mike@strictly-german.com> > 6. Re: [E36M3] coil overs, rear shocks > by: Seth Thomas <porsche993@mindspring.com> > 7. Swaybar GP ??? > by: <Robert_Manger@mastercard.com> > 8. how your dealership can PAY you to drive a car... > by: Ben Liaw <ben@shortshifter.com> > 9. Re: [E36M3] Swaybar GP ??? > by: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> > 10. Re: [E36M3] How do you adjust rear Konis (single adjustable) > by: Pieter Van Dien <pvd1@worldnet.att.net> > > -------------------- 1 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:47:13 PDT > From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] engine noises > > >JC Chip: Maybe there is a problem there. If the chip was > developed for an > >engine at one end of the tolerance band and your car is at the > other end,, > >whoosh. > > this was part of a private message, i hope i'm not in trouble for > posting it > publically... > > i would SWEAR a month ago (when i bought the car) these noises > (especially > the knocking) were not there. about 2 weeks after i bought the car, i > installed the JC chip. back then, the stereo was just completed > so i drove > around everywhere blasting it and wouldn't have noticed "new" > engine noises > if there were anyway. > > now, the stereo being broken, i hear the engine. and the noises. is it > concievable what the chip is doing it? i guess i could swap back, but i > don't want to waste the effort for nothing. > > what does everyone think? > > P.S. what do jc chips look like? i bought this chip used from a private > party and all it says on it is "eurosport". nothing about jim c > or sharks > and the like. is that what they look like? > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > -------------------- 2 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:08:20 EDT > From: TMauceri@aol.com > Subject: [E36M3] E36M3 #400 > > Suzy: > If anyone stays peeved after these last comments of yours they definitely > need to get a life ! > > > > -------------------- 3 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:18:55 -0400 > From: "Dorffer, Rich" <RDORFFER@CleIndians.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] engine noises > > Personally, my engine does not make any of the noises everyone else > (including Sean) often suggests. > > I would say something more like "my engine sings". Then again, this has > more to do with the JC Intake, JC Chip, and Euro HFM than anything else I > suppose. > > Best regards, > > Rich > > 95 M3 - ready to sign at Nelson Ledges and Mid Ohio later this > year (and not > soon enough). > > > > -------------------- 4 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:39:03 -0400 > From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] engine noises > > > P.S. what do jc chips look like? i bought this chip used from > a private > > party and all it says on it is "eurosport". nothing about jim > c or sharks > > and the like. is that what they look like? > > Eurosport is a dealer for JimC's chips. > > Nick > > > > > -------------------- 5 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:30:47 -0400 > From: "Mike" <mike@strictly-german.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] coil overs, rear shocks > > > > From: Bob Stommel <rstommel@iquest.net> > > > > The square metal plate at the bottom of the rear shock is > designed to keep > > the shock from popping off the rubber bushing under track use > > Make sure they are installed correctly. The shock can come off the bottom > mount and if it happens at the worst possible moment, it could > mean loss of > car control. > Happened on my LTW at road atlanta. In the car it felt as if > someone hit me > in the rear. watching the tape, the car jerks suddenly and rear > end slides > out. I counter steered to full lock but the car kept rotating and smash. > moved a concrete barrier 2 ft. Not a fun experiance but luckly > the car was > repairable. > I had 100s of miles of track time, been racing and knew the car > pretty well, > but that scared the shit out of me. Because of the toe out > change when the > car bottoms out, it basically steered itself around. so check those > whenever you have shocks installed. I should have caught it at the track > when i was doing my inspection but did not. will not happen again > > Michael Lawrence > > mike@strictly-german.com > www.strictly-german.com > 706-658-2458 > > > > > -------------------- 6 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:01:39 -0400 > From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] coil overs, rear shocks > > One good thing to do is to safety wire these bolts if the car > sees a lot of > track time. This will help to keep it from backing out. If you don't > safety wire them in then make sure you torque them correctly. > Overtorquing > these bolts will allow them to rip out. This could happen at the > wrong time > too. > > Seth Thomas > www.m3ltw.com > www.m3power.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike <mike@strictly-german.com> > To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmwmpower.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [E36M3] coil overs, rear shocks > > > > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:30:47 -0400 > > From: "Mike" <mike@strictly-german.com> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] coil overs, rear shocks > > > > > > > From: Bob Stommel <rstommel@iquest.net> > > > > > > > The square metal plate at the bottom of the rear shock is designed to > keep > > > the shock from popping off the rubber bushing under track use > > > > Make sure they are installed correctly. The shock can come off > the bottom > > mount and if it happens at the worst possible moment, it could mean loss > of > > car control. > > Happened on my LTW at road atlanta. In the car it felt as if > someone hit > me > > in the rear. watching the tape, the car jerks suddenly and rear end > slides > > out. I counter steered to full lock but the car kept rotating > and smash. > > moved a concrete barrier 2 ft. Not a fun experiance but luckly the car > was > > repairable. > > I had 100s of miles of track time, been racing and knew the car pretty > well, > > but that scared the shit out of me. Because of the toe out change when > the > > car bottoms out, it basically steered itself around. so check those > > whenever you have shocks installed. I should have caught it at > the track > > when i was doing my inspection but did not. will not happen again > > > > Michael Lawrence > > > > mike@strictly-german.com > > www.strictly-german.com > > 706-658-2458 > > > > > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > ************************************************************* > > > > > > > > -------------------- 7 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:24:12 -0400 > From: Robert_Manger@mastercard.com > Subject: Swaybar GP ??? > > > > With the great deals that are being offered for them. I would > like to know what > is better about one mfg over another? ie UUC or Eibach bars. what is the > general consensus? > > To Suzy, > > I am sure that this can not be heard enough so I will say it. > > I would like to thank you for all your hard work that has kept > this list up and > running. I have learned an enormous amount about my car from > this list and I > owe you a debt of gratitude for it existence. > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > > -------------------- 8 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:58:41 -0400 > From: "Ben Liaw" <ben@shortshifter.com> > Subject: how your dealership can PAY you to drive a car... > > i was at my favorite local BMW establishment (chester's new > favorite, too), Wide World of Cars. the people are great, > service is great, pricing is pretty good, too (in my experience). > > my salesman who sold me my first BMW (my former 96 M3) was > showing me around the back lot at a new 330Ci and i happened to > glance at the "other" side of the lot...the ferrari side. so, we > walk over there... > > 355 here, testarossa there, then...the interesting cars...360 modena. > > the dealership just bought BACK a used, 360 modena from a > customer. as a ferrari dealership, they cannot sell a new car > over sticker. however, as a USED car, they can do whatever they want. > > according to the new C&D, the 360 modena with F1 (which > double-clutches, btw), stickers at just over $154,000. the > customer who sold the car back to the dealer paid around $160,000 > as equipped, drove it for 6 months, and sold it BACK to the same > dealer for $210,000. they're asking for $225,000 for the car > (wait, lemme get my checkbook). > > herein lies the problem for ferrari dealership nowadays. there > is a 2 year waiting list for a 360 modena and a 3 year list for a > 360 spyder. so...you got some dot.com money and itchin' for a > ferrari...whacha gonna do? > > for those that absolutely HAVE to have a convertible, they did > have a beautiful 1998 355 spyder in yellow. > > make mine red. F40 red. just like the one on their showroom floor. > > [BMW content] looks like the 330Ci with sport package comes with > a real set of sneakers...225/45R17 front and 245/40R17 rear > Michelin Pilot Sport SXs. > > fwiw. > > ben > > > > -------------------- 9 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:53:43 -0700 > From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Swaybar GP ??? > > Sway bars need to be matched to your springs and somewhat to your > dampers. They will act much differently at the same setting between > stock/Eibach/H&R etc. Your best bet is to ask people with similar > suspensions in the other components. I've used both Eibach's and RD > Sport's. with both Eibach springs and H&Rs. All around, I think I like > the RD Sports just a pinch better. But not enough that I would pay > vastly more for them. > > Jim > > Robert_Manger@mastercard.com wrote: > > > > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 18:24:12 -0400 > > From: Robert_Manger@mastercard.com > > Subject: Swaybar GP ??? > > > > With the great deals that are being offered for them. I would > like to know what > > is better about one mfg over another? ie UUC or Eibach bars. > what is the > > general consensus? > > > > To Suzy, > > > > I am sure that this can not be heard enough so I will say it. > > > > I would like to thank you for all your hard work that has kept > this list up and > > running. I have learned an enormous amount about my car from > this list and I > > owe you a debt of gratitude for it existence. > > > > thanks, > > > > Rob > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > ************************************************************* > > > > -------------------- 10 -------------------- > Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:24:53 -0400 > From: "Pieter Van Dien" <pvd1@worldnet.att.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] How do you adjust rear Konis (single adjustable) > > I had no idea it was so difficult to adjust the rears. It sounds like you > really need to take out the rear shocks entirely to adjust them. They feel > ok so far, slightly stiffer than stock. I will try running them as is for > now and concentrate on adjusting the fronts to affect car balance. I > understand the fronts are somewhat of a PITA also as the standard KONI key > is useless because of the angle of the shocks in the upper strut bearings. > > I'm the guy who started the whole M3 beginner/handling thread so I guess I > look like a total hypocrite now that I'm putting in stiffer shocks in the > car increasing the speed at which the rear will come loose and making the > car even worse for a beginner. Oh well. > > Piete > > > > ************************************************************** > Digest Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE DIGEST - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the digest. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > ************************************************************** > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
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#5. lower rear shock bolts - torque spec? - from jbergstrom
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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 07:17:23 -0500 From: "jbergstrom" <john@intellectsys.com> Subject: lower rear shock bolts - torque spec? >>>If you don't safety wire them in then make sure you torque them correctly. Overtorquing these bolts will allow them to rip out.<<< I have the Bilstein sport shocks. I recently removed the rear shocks when I replaced my upper shock mount bushings and wanted to make sure I torqued the lower bolt correctly. Does anyone know what the correct torque is for the lower bolts? John (suddenly a little worried with all this talk of the lower bolts coming off . . . ) '95 M3
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#6. rear shock mount bushing replacement - from jbergstrom
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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 09:05:55 -0500 From: "jbergstrom" <john@intellectsys.com> Subject: rear shock mount bushing replacement Found a great writeup with pictures on rear shock mount bushing replacement. Helped me quite a bit when I did it last night. Thanks, David! www.racepad.com in the "Tech" section John '95 M3
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#7. RE: [E36M3] lower rear shock bolts - torque spec? - from Robert Chay
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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:06:01 -0700 From: "Robert Chay" <rchay@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] lower rear shock bolts - torque spec? When I installed my Bilsteins, I installed them the wrong way. There's a plate that's supposed to be on the outside to prevent the shock from sliding off. I caught mine in time and flipped them. Luckily it was during a tech inspection I was doing for a track event. I kept an eye on it for the weekend and haven't had problems since. The lower bolt should be torqued to about 54ft/lbs I believe (I could be totally off since it was a while ago) -Bobby '98 M3 > -----Original Message----- > From: jbergstrom [mailto:john@intellectsys.com] > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 5:18 AM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] lower rear shock bolts - torque spec? > > > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 07:17:23 -0500 > From: "jbergstrom" <john@intellectsys.com> > Subject: lower rear shock bolts - torque spec? > > >>>If you don't safety wire them in then make sure you torque them > correctly. Overtorquing these bolts will allow them to rip out.<<< > > I have the Bilstein sport shocks. I recently removed the rear > shocks when I > replaced my upper shock mount bushings and wanted to make sure I > torqued the > lower bolt correctly. Does anyone know what the correct torque is for the > lower bolts? > > John (suddenly a little worried with all this talk of the lower > bolts coming > off . . . ) > '95 M3 > > >
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#8. Re: [E36M3] How do you adjust rear Konis (single adjustable) - from Sean Hester
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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 10:19:45 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How do you adjust rear Konis (single adjustable) >I had no idea it was so difficult to adjust the rears. It sounds like you >really need to take out the rear shocks entirely to adjust them. They feel >ok so far, slightly stiffer than stock. I will try running them as is for >now and concentrate on adjusting the fronts to affect car balance. once the rears match the car, there's really no reason to mess with them. even if i could adjust the rears easily, i'd probably not bother after i had them dialed in. when i put them on my car, i messed with the rears 5-6 times over the course of that first week. i got practiced enough that i could do it in half an hour. (the whole job... take em off, dial them in, put them back on) after that first week, i never touched them again. >I understand the fronts are somewhat of a PITA also as the standard KONI >key >is useless because of the angle of the shocks in the upper strut bearings. maybe it's different with 96+ cars, but i had no problem using the koni key on my 95. even with aftermarket camber plates, and as much neg camber as i could get out of them. >I'm the guy who started the whole M3 beginner/handling thread so I guess I >look like a total hypocrite now that I'm putting in stiffer shocks in the >car increasing the speed at which the rear will come loose and making the >car even worse for a beginner. Oh well. you don't HAVE TOO adjust them that way. sometimes i used crank up the fronts to really-really stiff. this would make the back end EASIER to get coming around. because no weight would transfer back there coming out of corners. i called it my "mini skid car" excercise... and it worked better in the rain. with my car set up that way, on a wet track, i could actually practice getting loose and catching it at an (almost) comfortable speed. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Stock Ride Height? - from Wen Liew
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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:44:26 GMT From: "Wen Liew" <wwliew@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Stock Ride Height? Just another ride height data point from a stock 96M3 with 1/2 tank of gas. FL: 14-1/8 FR: 13-7/8 RL: 13 RR: 12-3/4 Looks like the left is 1/4 in higher, the front is 1-1/8 in higher. YMMV. Wen >Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:28:07 -0700 (PDT)From: S Lafredo ><slafredo@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Stock Ride Height? >Finally! :) This explains why people are always asking if my car is >lowered! My stock height is ~12.x as I posted.Thanks, for the info.S >>--- vernon@sprynet.com wrote: >>My data is below, before and after my Ground Control coil-over >>install last weekend:> > Stock (no driver and 1/2 tank gas):> LF 14 7/16 >>RF 14 1/4> LR 13 3/16> RR 13 1/8> > Coil-overs:> LF 13 1/4> RF 13> LR >> 12 >>RR 12 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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#10. Stock Ride Height Results - from Ron Katona
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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:56:47 -0400 From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> Subject: Stock Ride Height Results Keep those cards and letters coming, but here are some preliminary results from the ride height question... I received 5 replies. It was stated that the measurement was sans driver and with 1/2 tank (although I failed to ask) in four replies. No driver or fuel info was specified in one case. I'll assume the driver was not in the car in that case as well. The cars varied from 95 through 98 and were all 2 doors except one 4 door. The 4 door fell squarely in the middle of the 2-doors height wise, so there seems to be no difference coupe to sedan. The lowest car in front was not the lowest car in the rear. There seemed to be no correlation of ride height to model year. Lastly, everyone started by giving me the left front first and moved around to the right rear... I don't know what that means. <g> Average: LF - 14.151 RF - 13.975 LR - 13.126 RR - 12.913 Median: LF - 14.208 RF - 14.013 LR - 13.219 RR - 13.063 Std Dev: LF - .296 RF - .282 LR - .300 RR - .346 Range: LF - .688 RF - .625 LR - .685 RR - .725 Average difference Left to Right: F - Left +.176 R - Left +.213 (no measurement on the right was higher than the left on the same car... so it's true, the car sits higher to the left without the driver) Basically, as measured from the middle of the wheel up to the fender arch with no driver and about 1/2 tank of gas, if your M3 is about 14-1/8" in front and 13-1/8" in the rear +/- 5/16", and about 3/16" higher left than right, you're normal. -- Ron Katona