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#1. Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track - from Jim Powell
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:02:25 -0700 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track I promise you if he keeps doing 6-7K cluch drops, 1 or 2 more trips to the strip will break something, maybe LOTS of somethings. And if he's using *his* own money, I doubt there are that many 17 year olds prepared to deal with the consequences financially. Drag racing an M3 is inherently a dipshit thing to do. Its the wrong tool for the job. For the price of a major driveline rebuild you can buy an 80's Mustang and have the time of your life at the strip. The stock M3 is capable of pulling low 14s, maybe high 13s on the strip. Whoop-De-Do. Thats a yawner. By the time you perfect your technique to be able to take a Cobra across an intersection you'll be spending money. Then of course we can look to the future when Milos gets sick of his rattle trap piece of crap he can't afford to fix and it gets sold. You looking for a car like that? Me neither. BTW, what you've done to your car isn't exactly a reassurance, is it? Jim Sean Hester wrote: > > > eep! so much doom and gloom! > > i did that very thing to my 95 M3s clutch two times. though i never took it > to a drag strip, i just messed up two times when i was in a hurry, and > overslipped it. > > but... despite those two times, the cluth on my 95 (the same car, that if > you know my history, was at the track 50 times, warped a head, killed 3 > vanos gears, killed the entire suspension, killed lots of other parts) > lasted the entire life of the car. 89,000 miles on the original clutch. > with 50 track days. that's pretty good i though. EVEN though i did that > "box of nails" things twice. > > i suppose if you keep dragging it you're asking for trouble. but one or two > times does not spell the end of yout clucth. if you use it properly for the > other 88,998 miles of it's life. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > *************************************************************
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? - from Jim Powell
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:05:16 -0700 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? Usually warped rotors pulse under light braking and not under heavier braking. Are you using PF-90s etc? Maybe you have some pad material build up that will wear off. If you have the time and inclination you could try having them resurfaced lightly for about $7 a piece. That would clear any crud off of them. If they are warped, the pulsing will return quickly as the temper is out of the steel. If not, you saved some jingle. Jim twisty M3 wrote: > > Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 11:47:31 PDT > From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> > Subject: [E36M3] Warped or... ? > > (sorry if I sent out a blank post before this one) > > Ok, I have to be honest. In the past, I hadn't paid all that much attention > to the post regarding warped rotors because I didn't think I'd have to worry > about that for a looooong time. Unfortunately, that loooong time turned out > to be pretty short. I *think* I warped 'em at Willowsprings yesterday but > thought I'd check with the list first... > > When I brake lightly, there's no sounds or strange feelings but there's > definitely not as much bite as before so the car's a bit harder to stop > (especially cold at 3 a.m.) When I use more breaking force there's a > pulsating sensation (not at all like ABS) and a very obvious "thb, thb, thb, > thb" sound. When visually inspection them, the *appear* to be in "shape" > but they are discolored (black streaks) in spots (looks like the black marks > I ended up with all over the car from flying, melted chunks of rubber at the > track). Also, when I got off the track, the rotors looked "slimy," like > melted rubber somewhat. I did the requisite cool down laps, didn't use the > parking brake and made it a point to drive around the paddock for a few > minutes after getting off (at least after the last two sessions anyway). > The temp was in the high 90s so I suppose that would have some effect on the > cooling down > process. > > I know warped rotors is pretty common so I'm sure that's probably it but I > do recall someone mentioning before that there can sometimes be "build up" > of some sorts on the rotors and that can eventually be scrubbed off. > > Based on my symptoms, what's the consensus? If warped, aside from the extra > breaking distance I should give myself just incase, how safe/unsafe is it to > drive with them in this condition? Is it generally just the fronts that > would need to be replaced? > > As an aside, if a tire were unbalanced, would that be noticeable under > braking or just at speed? (I noticed some wheel weights near my car in the > pits but it didn't look like they came of mine). > > Thanks! > Jonathan L. > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > *************************************************************
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#3. Crispy Clutches and Drag Strips - from MDadgar@handspring.com
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:24:14 -0700 From: MDadgar@handspring.com Subject: Crispy Clutches and Drag Strips Jim wrote: > But I still say what you learned that was most useful was > from me. You are going to be out serious money in no time > at all. Start saving unless your daddy feeds your need for > speed. Milo, you are screwing the car up bad. I'm not kidding. > This is true. Milo, keep in mind that most BMW CCA chapters will allow licensed drivers below the age of 18 provided that a parent signs an age waiver. Golden Gate Chapter does this. I *highly* recommend a BMW CCA driving school. Your life will never be the same (read: it's a slippery slope :) ). - Mark "0 to Dedicated Track Car in 14 months" Dadgar '95 M3 '97 528i 5-spd '88 M3, Hennarot ---- Mark Dadgar - Product Manager, Accessories (650) 230-5037 voice - (650) 230-2100 fax mdadgar@handspring.com - Handspring, Inc. "wide awake on the edge of the world" - Marillion Check out Visor at www.handspring.com!
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? - from twisty M3
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:52:36 PDT From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? No, still running stock pads. Hopefully it's just crud built up. Would that explain the extra force/distance needed to stop now or is that a typical post heavy-track-day situation? (all stock brake components) Jonathan L. > >Usually warped rotors pulse under light braking and not under heavier >braking. Are you using PF-90s etc? Maybe you have some pad material >build up that will wear off. If you have the time and inclination you >could try having them resurfaced lightly for about $7 a piece. That >would clear any crud off of them. If they are warped, the pulsing will >return quickly as the temper is out of the steel. If not, you saved >some jingle. > >Jim > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? - from Jim Powell
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:56:55 -0700 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? The extra force is possibly air in the lines. It would be normal to need to bleed them after a heavy track day. jim twisty M3 wrote: > > No, still running stock pads. Hopefully it's just crud built up. Would > that explain the extra force/distance needed to stop now or is that a > typical post heavy-track-day situation? (all stock brake components) > > Jonathan L. > > > > >Usually warped rotors pulse under light braking and not under heavier > >braking. Are you using PF-90s etc? Maybe you have some pad material > >build up that will wear off. If you have the time and inclination you > >could try having them resurfaced lightly for about $7 a piece. That > >would clear any crud off of them. If they are warped, the pulsing will > >return quickly as the temper is out of the steel. If not, you saved > >some jingle. > > > >Jim > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com.
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? - from Sean Hester
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:15:20 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? congrats. you've graduated from novice to intermediate status. once you're breaking your car at the track, (boiling fluid, warping rotors, throwing wheel weights, etc...) you know you're getting pretty fast. ;-P now you get to experience buying stronger parts for your car to keep it "track worthy". >When I brake lightly, there's no sounds or strange feelings but there's >definitely not as much bite as before so the car's a bit harder to stop >(especially cold at 3 a.m.) that means you need new (preferrably high temp) brake fluid. yours is shot, probably boiled. >When I use more breaking force there's a >pulsating sensation (not at all like ABS) and a very obvious "thb, thb, >thb, thb" sound. probably warped. >When visually inspection them, the *appear* to be in "shape" you can't see warping. a couple thousandths is all it takes to be "warped". if you really wanna measure it you can buy a many hundred dollar runout guage. (or pay a mechanic to measure them for you) >but they are discolored (black streaks) in spots (looks like the black >marks >I ended up with all over the car from flying, melted chunks of rubber at >the >track). Also, when I got off the track, the rotors looked "slimy," like >melted rubber somewhat. that could be carbon deposits. but i get the impression you're using stock pads. that usually only happens with race pads. >I did the requisite cool down laps, didn't use the >parking brake and made it a point to drive around the paddock for a few >minutes after getting off (at least after the last two sessions anyway). >The temp was in the high 90s so I suppose that would have some effect on >the >cooling down >process. yeah, ambient temp does make a little difference. but 90% of it is how hard you're using the brakes (heavily track dependant). 9.98% is cooldown. the other 0.02% are things like air temp, humidity, etc. >I know warped rotors is pretty common so I'm sure that's probably it but I >do recall someone mentioning before that there can sometimes be "build up" >of some sorts on the rotors and that can eventually be scrubbed off. if you're using different (race compound) pads for the the track that can happen. i've never heard of it happenning if you're using stock pads. >Based on my symptoms, what's the consensus? i can tell the difference between carbon buildup and warping by driving the car. there's a TINY difference in the feel. and if you're warped as many rotors as i have you can tell. but you definetly can't tell over e-mail. ;-( without a runout guage the only way i can think to tell is: if it goes away it's probably carbon buildup. if it stays it's probably warping. >If warped, aside from the extra >breaking distance I should give myself just incase, how safe/unsafe is it >to drive with them in this condition? the shaking is bad for just about every part of your front suspension/driveline. (steering rack, bushings, shocks, calipers, pads, and on and on.) if they're warped, change them, and DEFINETLY before you go to the track again. >Is it generally just the fronts that would need to be replaced? yes. i've warped 50 fronts and 0 rears. but... i do know someone (who's harder on brakes then me if you can believe it) that has warped a rear or two. it's trial and error. i say change the fronts. if that fixes it you're good. ;-) >As an aside, if a tire were unbalanced, would that be noticeable under >braking or just at speed? (I noticed some wheel weights near my car in the >pits but it didn't look like they came of mine). i generally don't notice out of balance tires until i'm at 45mph or higher. and usually at constant speed. braking, if anything, masks out of balance problems because of all the other "forces at work" during braking. P.S. you really need to put tape over your wheel weights at the track. metal film tape works best. duct tape is ok. and yes, both of them leave goo on your wheels. that's reason #6 why you need seperate wheels for the track, if you go alot. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track - from Sean Hester
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:19:23 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track >I promise you if he keeps doing 6-7K cluch drops, 1 or 2 more trips to >the strip will break something, maybe LOTS of somethings. yeah. it's gotta stop... now... (poor car) i thought you meant he'd already sealed it's fate and it was time to get a new clutch and flywheel or more... my point was only that if it's ok now, (no slipping on the 4th gear uphill test) and it isn't subjected to more bad treatment, it will be ok. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track - from Joe Dyer
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:21:36 -0700 From: "Joe Dyer" <joedyer@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track Matt, I don't know where you autocross, but I'm glad the west coast events do not have drag starts. There's always a turn before the start timers. Joe SF Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track > > Ouch! Well.. the M3 clutch is pretty tough. And > nowhere near as expensive as a Porsche unit. You'll > probably get the best 1/4 mile time with a > 2900-3200RPM launch, at least with street tires. Just > drop the clutch. If you start to slip the clutch on > the launch it will usually slip all the way through > the gear, causing excessive wear and high times. A > good launch shouldn't be all that bad. Just look at > it this way.. all us crazy autocrossers do it 6 times > an event. I learned most of this by trial and error. > Once I was armed with a G-tech and cartest it was much > less painful. My car has 50k on the origional clutch, > about 8k with a turbo and a lead foot. > > -Matt
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? - from Sean Hester
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:32:21 PDT From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped or... ? >No, still running stock pads. Hopefully it's just crud built up. i sent am answer to thism but was only guesing that you were using stock pads. here's more info now that i know for sure. stock pads don't do the buildup thing. they're designed not to. the stuff you see on the rotors is probably from the pads getting so hot they BURNED. this'll leave black streaks on the rotors and a white ashlike (not really ashlike i guess... it IS ash) buildup on the calipers and other spots. have someone look at the calipers and especially the boots to make sure you didn't melt/burn/harm these parts. race pads, on the other hand, DO deposit gunk onto the rotors that can cause shaking. it's not really on purpose, but it's something you live with race pads. for racing it's not an issue. the main reason being that the gunk gets scraped off in one lap of a race. it's only an "issue" if you take your race car out on the town for some easy driving. noone's yet invented a pad that will work for what we want it to. which is: great for weekend racing, back to quiet, smooth operation for the monday morning drive to work. >Would that explain the extra force/distance needed to stop now or is that a >typical post heavy-track-day situation? (all stock brake components) no that wouldn't explain it. the extra force/stopping distance thing? that's brake fluid. you need a new batch. i guess i WOULD call it typical of a post heavy-track-day. if i drove a stock M3 all day it would have that sympton for sure. BUT! that's not going to get better over time. (even if your shaking turns out not to be warping) you gotta get it changed. i'd get high temp stuff if i were you. when i ran my M3 at the track i had to change fluid every 2 events. (3-4 if i was lazy, but performance WOULD diminish after 2 events) you're starting to see why people call racing expensive. on top of the things we "figure" cost alot of money, (engines, tires) new rotors every couple races, new brake fluid every couple races, new calipers twice a year, etc... it adds up in a hurry. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track - from Matt Henson
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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:33:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track I'm in Austin. Not all of the events have clutch-drop starts but many do. I guess I shouldn't apply chutch drop as a blanket requirement of AutoX. But it happens a lot. Shoot, even Bob Tunnell talks about using clutch drops to heat his tires in Solo2. It's in his web page under the "Myth of the Underprepared M3" section. -Matt --- Joe Dyer <joedyer@home.com> wrote: > Matt, > > I don't know where you autocross, but I'm glad the > west coast events do not > have drag starts. There's always a turn before the > start timers. > > Joe > SF Bay Area > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Issues at the track > > > > Ouch! Well.. the M3 clutch is pretty tough. And > > nowhere near as expensive as a Porsche unit. > You'll > > probably get the best 1/4 mile time with a > > 2900-3200RPM launch, at least with street tires. > Just > > drop the clutch. If you start to slip the clutch > on > > the launch it will usually slip all the way > through > > the gear, causing excessive wear and high times. > A > > good launch shouldn't be all that bad. Just look > at > > it this way.. all us crazy autocrossers do it 6 > times > > an event. I learned most of this by trial and > error. > > Once I was armed with a G-tech and cartest it was > much > > less painful. My car has 50k on the origional > clutch, > > about 8k with a turbo and a lead foot. > > > > -Matt > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/