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#1. Re: [E36M3] Re: M3 PING SURVEY - from NickG
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:24:17 -0500 From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: M3 PING SURVEY > What you hear is something like a sizzle/marble sound. I have searched the > archives for this and apparently this happens right at the edge between > knock and no knock. And trust me, if your car was > doing it, you would be able to hear it. It sounds like loose marbles inside > the engine. If the sizzle/marble sound occurs right at the threshold of detonation, does that mean that the sound is acceptable? Nick
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#2. Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging - from NickG
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:27:23 -0500 From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging > question is: Why don't the knock sensors detect this and prevent it? Does > the Conforti chip tunning defeat the knock sensors in any way...or does he > allow more pinging in his program? 1) the knock sensors do detect the detonation and eliminate it, eventually. Aftermarket chips have a more aggressive spark timing curve, hence, a higher propensity to detonate. Thus, the engine might detonate for a split second, then the detonation circuit in the DME kicks in and retards the timing, stopping the detonation. 2) The Conforti chip does not defeat the knock sensor functionality. 3) His program does not allow more pinging. NIck
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#3. Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging - from Jim Powell
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 06:46:09 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging What model year is the car? There are 2 knock sensors on recent cars. Maybe one of them is defective? The engine should be able to 'hear' (literally) the knock and start reacting well before you do. Jim LoweSeaton@aol.com wrote: > > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:31:16 EST > From: LoweSeaton@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging > > Roger and Paul ask about the knock sensors. > > Rats!! We need Jim Conforti to answer this one. To answer Roger's > question, > I know JimC has said his programming does not change or effect the knock > > sensors in anyway. > > As for why the knock sensors don't hear the knock before we do and the > DME > retard the timing? I'll speculate that the DME does not initially know > how > much to retard the timing when the knocking first starts. It goes > through an > iterative process. > > For example, maybe it pulls down the timing 1 degree, then checks to see > if > the knocking is still occurring. If yes, then it pulls down the timing > 1 > more degree. If that is not enough, then it pulls down the timing > another > degree. Then another degree, then another degree, then another degree, > then > another degree, etc...... Until the knocking finally stops. But by > this > time, you have heard the knocking. > > And the threshold for the knocking is constantly changing. If you ease > up on > the gas, the knocking probably will stop. Or if you give it more > throttle, > more knocking. The DME never knows how much to retard the timing so it > has > to guess. If it guesses wrong, then you hear the knocking. > > OK, that is my guess. Anybody else? > > Lowell Seaton > '95 M3/2 > Dallas, Texas > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > *************************************************************
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#4. window tinting in Atlanta - from Abe Marmer
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:39:13 -0800 (PST) From: Abe Marmer <abe99vette@yahoo.com> Subject: window tinting in Atlanta Does anyone have any good/bad experiences getting their windows tinted in Atlanta? Any recommendations would be nice. Thanks Abe '99 M3 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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#5. Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging - from Bora Akyol
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 07:39:15 -0800 From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging My opinion is that the marbles/sizzle sound that we hear is between full knock and normal operation and as such probably happens before the ECU takes over. I don't think it is as bad on the engine as full knock, in a previous email Jim C mentions that his car does the same and but he hasn't had any engine problems. The question that I have is: How bad is the engine sizzle/marble/ping sound that we hear for the engine in the long term. I don't think you can get an M3 engine replacement at Kragen's for 500 bucks, so I want to keep the one that I have for as long as possible. I wish someone made a chip that did not alter the stock timing as aggressively but still removed the top speed governor. Bora At 10:05 PM 11/3/2000, RogRacer@aol.com wrote: >Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:51:02 EST >From: RogRacer@aol.com >Subject: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging > >I just installed the JC Euro Intake set-up on my '95. Great kit and great >instructions...the fit of the parts is exceptional, and I enjoyed the install >process. Anyway, I was a little worried before the install about this issue >of "pinging". My car, in stock trim, would occasionally ping under heavy >throttle in the 3-4K rpm range. But it seemed to vary from tank-to-tank of >gas, so I didn't worry too much about it. When it did ping, it would only do >it for a second or so and then stop, which I assume was the knock sensors >kicking in. Now that I have the JC Euro Intake installed, the pinging seems >to be significantly worse. Of course, I've only had the kit on for about 3 >hours, so I haven't given it a fair chance. Soon, I'll fill up with another >brand of gas (I normally use Mobil) and see how that does. Anyway, my >question is: Why don't the knock sensors detect this and prevent it? Does >the Conforti chip tunning defeat the knock sensors in any way...or does he >allow more pinging in his program? > >TIA, >Roger W. Graves >RogRacer@aol.com >'95 M3, JC Euro Intake, but might have a pinging problem > > >************************************************************* >List Commands >UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. >*************************************************************
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#6. Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging - from Bora Akyol
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 07:41:43 -0800 From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging If one of the knock sensors is defective, the check engine light comes on and you see a fault code. If he doesn't have a check engine light, then this should not be a problem. Bora At 07:35 AM 11/4/2000, Jim Powell wrote: >Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 06:46:09 -0800 >From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging > >What model year is the car? There are 2 knock sensors on recent cars. >Maybe one of them is defective? The engine should be able to 'hear' >(literally) the knock and start reacting well before you do. > >Jim > >LoweSeaton@aol.com wrote: > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:31:16 EST > > From: LoweSeaton@aol.com > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging > > > > Roger and Paul ask about the knock sensors. > > > > Rats!! We need Jim Conforti to answer this one. To answer Roger's > > question, > > I know JimC has said his programming does not change or effect the knock > > > > sensors in anyway. > > > > As for why the knock sensors don't hear the knock before we do and the > > DME > > retard the timing? I'll speculate that the DME does not initially know > > how > > much to retard the timing when the knocking first starts. It goes > > through an > > iterative process. > > > > For example, maybe it pulls down the timing 1 degree, then checks to see > > if > > the knocking is still occurring. If yes, then it pulls down the timing > > 1 > > more degree. If that is not enough, then it pulls down the timing > > another > > degree. Then another degree, then another degree, then another degree, > > then > > another degree, etc...... Until the knocking finally stops. But by > > this > > time, you have heard the knocking. > > > > And the threshold for the knocking is constantly changing. If you ease > > up on > > the gas, the knocking probably will stop. Or if you give it more > > throttle, > > more knocking. The DME never knows how much to retard the timing so it > > has > > to guess. If it guesses wrong, then you hear the knocking. > > > > OK, that is my guess. Anybody else? > > > > Lowell Seaton > > '95 M3/2 > > Dallas, Texas > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > ************************************************************* > > >************************************************************* >List Commands >UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. >*************************************************************
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Re: M3 PING SURVEY - from Bora Akyol
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 07:42:12 -0800 From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: M3 PING SURVEY I would love to have an answer for this. Bora At 07:35 AM 11/4/2000, NickG wrote: >Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:24:17 -0500 >From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: M3 PING SURVEY > > > What you hear is something like a sizzle/marble sound. I have searched the > > archives for this and apparently this happens right at the edge between > > knock and no knock. And trust me, if your car was > > doing it, you would be able to hear it. It sounds like loose marbles >inside > > the engine. > >If the sizzle/marble sound occurs right at the threshold of detonation, does >that mean that the sound is acceptable? > >Nick > > > >************************************************************* >List Commands >UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. >*************************************************************
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#8. Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging - from Jim Powell
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 07:42:05 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging Well.... If the car has knock sensors AND this is really pinging or knock, then something sure appears to be broken. Jim Bora Akyol wrote: > > If one of the knock sensors is defective, the check engine light comes on > and you see > a fault code. > > If he doesn't have a check engine light, then this should not be a problem. > > Bora
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#9. M3 PING SURVEY - from Lew Becker
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:50:49 -0800 From: "Lew Becker" <lmbeckercfls@earthlink.net> Subject: M3 PING SURVEY I have had Jim C's OBD II software since it became available, as well as his/Josh's intake since it became available in my 97 M3 (same as Bora's), both obtained through the E36 M3 List at significant savings thanks to Josh's generous group offers. And, I use SF Bay Area gas (same as Bora) -- Chevron Premium. I have NEVER experienced any pinging; BUT I never run the car at 2000 rpm (except in 1st), nor do I floor it at 2000 rpm (except on my way up through 1st) -- if you're running the car at 2000 rpm and/or hitting 2000 rpm when shifting, I submit that the software is not the problem but rather your driving habits -- you're running and/or shifting at too low an engine speed. Lew Becker > -------------------- 6 -------------------- > Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 20:54:58 -0800 > From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> > Subject: Re: M3 PING SURVEY > > What you hear is something like a sizzle/marble sound. I have searched the > archives for this and apparently this happens right at the edge between > knock and no knock. And trust me, if your car was > doing it, you would be able to hear it. It sounds like loose marbles inside > the engine. > > You can hear it by turning off the radio, driving by a walled freeway, > opening your windows and flooring the gas when the engine is only turning > 2K RPMs or so in 5th gear. > > Bora >
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#10. Re: M3 PING SURVEY - from Bora Akyol
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:28:19 -0800 From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> Subject: Re: M3 PING SURVEY One minor difference: My car is a 95 M3 and not an OBDII 97 M3. And I usually don't floor it at 2K rpm even though my car seems to pull pretty strongly even at that RPM range. What I wrote was a way to check whether your engine had pinging potential or not. Bora At 07:50 AM 11/4/2000, Lew Becker wrote: >I have had Jim C's OBD II software since it became available, as well as >his/Josh's intake since it became available in my 97 M3 (same as Bora's), >both obtained through the E36 M3 List at significant savings thanks to >Josh's generous group offers. And, I use SF Bay Area gas (same as Bora) -- >Chevron Premium. I have NEVER experienced any pinging; BUT I never run the >car at 2000 rpm (except in 1st), nor do I floor it at 2000 rpm (except on my >way up through 1st) -- if you're running the car at 2000 rpm and/or hitting >2000 rpm when shifting, I submit that the software is not the problem but >rather your driving habits -- you're running and/or shifting at too low an >engine speed. > >Lew Becker > > -------------------- 6 -------------------- > > Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 20:54:58 -0800 > > From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> > > Subject: Re: M3 PING SURVEY > > > > What you hear is something like a sizzle/marble sound. I have searched the > > archives for this and apparently this happens right at the edge between > > knock and no knock. And trust me, if your car was > > doing it, you would be able to hear it. It sounds like loose marbles >inside > > the engine. > > > > You can hear it by turning off the radio, driving by a walled freeway, > > opening your windows and flooring the gas when the engine is only turning > > 2K RPMs or so in 5th gear. > > > > Bora > >
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#11. M3 Ping Survey comments - from Bora Akyol
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:31:13 -0800 From: Bora Akyol <akyol@pluris.com> Subject: M3 Ping Survey comments So far it looks like only 95 M3s with manual transmission and ONLY in areas where the gas is RFG or RFGII have a pinging problem with aftermarket chips. No problems with stock chip. The brand of the aftermarket chip does not matter either. 96 and up cars with OBD-II don't seem to have any problems. I will keep on tabulating the results so please send your surveys in. Thanks to all who sent me their results (close to 20). Bora
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#12. plugs... - from Kit Wetzler
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:43:10 -0800 From: "Kit Wetzler" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> Subject: plugs... ok. Steve G has informed me that I have the right plugs for my car, someone must've put in the 95 plugs at some point or another. Oh, well. That's what I get for buying a used car, I suppose. ;) Anyway, here's a question. For those of you running forced induction on 96+ cars, what spark plugs are you using? Did you go a range colder or did you stick with the stock '8's? -kit, starting turbo project with a TEC-II install... (anyone have a ball bearing 60 trim t3/T04E for sale? Turbo manifold? IC? ) 97 M3/4 http://www.mindspring.com/~kitwetzler
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#13. Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging - from Matt Henson
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging My understanding is that the DME uses adaptive spark timing. So it should know where to start to remove the knock. But.. the DME can only retard the timing so much and so quickly. If you only hear a couple pings and then it stops then maybe it just takes a second. If it continues for a while then that's not so good. I'd wonder what was going on. Nick, maybe you can help these folks.. Shoot, my car gets a CE light for spark knock sensor when I don't hear knock. -Matt --- LoweSeaton@aol.com wrote: > Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:31:16 EST > From: LoweSeaton@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] JC Euro Intake and Pinging > > Roger and Paul ask about the knock sensors. > > Rats!! We need Jim Conforti to answer this one. To > answer Roger's > question, > I know JimC has said his programming does not change > or effect the knock > > sensors in anyway. > > As for why the knock sensors don't hear the knock > before we do and the > DME > retard the timing? I'll speculate that the DME does > not initially know > how > much to retard the timing when the knocking first > starts. It goes > through an > iterative process. > > For example, maybe it pulls down the timing 1 > degree, then checks to see > if > the knocking is still occurring. If yes, then it > pulls down the timing > 1 > more degree. If that is not enough, then it pulls > down the timing > another > degree. Then another degree, then another degree, > then another degree, > then > another degree, etc...... Until the knocking > finally stops. But by > this > time, you have heard the knocking. > > And the threshold for the knocking is constantly > changing. If you ease > up on > the gas, the knocking probably will stop. Or if you > give it more > throttle, > more knocking. The DME never knows how much to > retard the timing so it > has > to guess. If it guesses wrong, then you hear the > knocking. > > OK, that is my guess. Anybody else? > > Lowell Seaton > '95 M3/2 > Dallas, Texas > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you > from the mailing list. > ************************************************************* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
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#14. [E36M3] JC Intakes, Pings, and Throttle Plates - from RogRacer@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:18:50 EST From: RogRacer@aol.com Subject: [E36M3] JC Intakes, Pings, and Throttle Plates On this ping thing....I'm guessing now, after hearing from some others, that "ping" is not the same as "knock"....and the knock sensor control allows "ping" but prevents that from going to the next level and becoming destructive "knock". I'm gonna call Josh and ask him about this. Maybe a set of colder plugs would help....at this point I'm only a little concerned about it and am pretty happy with my intake set-up. But I am very interested in the Survey about this ping thing... Another subject.....I remember from a long time ago on Richard Welty's digest, Jim Conforti mentioning that M3 throttle plates go "over center" when full throttle application is applied, and that they could be adjusted to go to "true" center to pick up a few horsepower. When I was installing my JC intake I noticed that, sure enough, my throttle went over-center. I then centered it using a set of calipers. But, when I mentioned this to Josh ay Eurosport he indicated that BMW specs call for a certain amount of overcenter by design and maybe I should leave it there. In any case, does anybody know anything about this. The "normal" overcenter position looks needlessly restrictive.... Roger W. Graves RogRacer@aol.com '95 M3, JC Intake, some (normal?) pinging, and a centered throttle plate.