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#1. Re: [E36M3] Dinan labor units - from Ben Liaw - UUC Motorwerks
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:18:38 -0500 From: "Ben Liaw - UUC Motorwerks" <ben@shortshifter.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Dinan labor units each unit represents 15 minutes. ben ------------------------------------------- ben liaw - ben@shortshifter.com http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Powell" <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 7:01 PM Subject: [E36M3] Dinan labor units > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:55:44 -0800 > From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> > Subject: Dinan labor units > > What time period does Dinan use as a 'unit' on their labor quotes. Is > it 6 mins, 10 mins, 3 weeks? > > Jim > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > ************************************************************* > >
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Dinan labor units - from Jim Powell
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:21:22 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Dinan labor units If that's true they want over two man-days (woman-days last for freakin' ever) to change a clutch. At that rate they should follow the lead of these cheesy film developers and give the parts away for free if you'll pay them to install them. Jim Hoping its really 6 minutes so its only 50% more than it really takes. Ben Liaw - UUC Motorwerks wrote: > each unit represents 15 minutes. > > ben > ------------------------------------------- > ben liaw - ben@shortshifter.com > http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Powell" <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> > To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 7:01 PM > Subject: [E36M3] Dinan labor units > > > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:55:44 -0800 > > From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> > > Subject: Dinan labor units > > > > What time period does Dinan use as a 'unit' on their labor quotes. Is > > it 6 mins, 10 mins, 3 weeks? > > > > Jim > > > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > > > To issue a command/request to the server: > > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > > subject of the message. > > ************************************************************* > > > >
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#3. Re: [E36M3] e36 dinan stage 3 susp questions - from Ron Katona
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:29:04 -0500 From: Ron Katona <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] e36 dinan stage 3 susp questions Matt Henson wrote: > One thing to keep in mind is that the M3 was > designed with the stock ride height in mind. Changing > the ride height will affect geometry. Obviously > Camber and toe will change (fixable) but doesn't > lowering the car also affect bump steer and stuff like > that? Or Roll Centers? Bump steer won't really change. Changes in toe caused by suspension deflection is the definition of bump steer. The amount and direction of toe change per unit of suspension deflection won't change with lowering. You'll end up with changes in the static toe alignment, but not the amount of bump steer built in to the suspension's geometry. As you say, the static toe change that results from bump steer as the car is lowered is easily dealt with. Roll centers are another story. There are two basic problems with lowering an E36: The front suspension is very different than the rear, and that front suspension loses roll center height very quickly with lowering. Roll centers, BTW, are the virtual points around which the car rolls at each end and are determined entirely by suspension geometry. The roll center of a strut type suspension (as opposed to a double wishbone or multi-link setup) is very dependent on the alignment of the lower control arm. When you lower an E36, the lower control arm can drop to horizontal with the pavement, or even point downhill from the hub towards the center of the car when lowered to extremes. This can put the roll center very close to the pavement, or even below it. The roll center also drops much more quickly than the CG. Out back, the more sophisticated milti-link rear suspension has less of a roll center drop per given change in ride height. That means if you lower an E36 equally front and rear, you'll always lower the front roll center more than the rear. When you lower roll centers more than CG, you give the weight of the car at that end a longer lever arm to act around the virtual roll point causing more body roll. Yes, I said lowering an E36 *increases* body roll if all else is equal. The result is increased lateral weight transfer. So, with equal drops front and rear and no changes in the ratio of the spring stiffness, you'll increase understeer in an M3. There are some things in this case that work in your favor like the fact that the roll axis--a line drawn from the front to rear roll centers--will tilt downwards towards the front of the car and that usually results in less understeer. There will also be a benefit from the lower CG that should increase grip making the understeer perhaps less noticeable. However, the understeer problem still exists. To solve that, you have to tweak sway bars, spring rates, and ride heights to dial in a more neutral result. You can see now why Dinan's approach of slight lowering, a reduction in front roll bar stiffness, and slightly more lowering in the rear, makes sense. There's another big thing to consider though and that's the fact that the roll center might oscillate above and below the road surface if it starts too low and the car is not sprung stiffly enough. When this happens, the load on the tires changes frequently and handling can get unpredictable. Sometimes you'll see lowered cars bouncing up and down in heavy cornering; that's usually an indication that the roll center is oscillating from below the road surface to above. Because a lower CG and increased levels of grip are extremely important in racing, however, lowering to extremes is still viable for competition. To reduce or eliminate the problems with roll centers you must keep the chassis very low and under tight control. You're also running out of suspension travel and bottoming, riding the bump stops, or coil-binding the springs become issues. Those factors all mean you must go to very heavy spring rates to make extreme levels of lowering work. Now some people think 500+ lb springs are OK on the street, but most do not... and there's the problem. What you end up with are three options for the M3: 1. Leave it stock. 2. Lower it a little (1/4"-3/4") and tweak spring rates and sway bars to taste. 3. Slam it and make it stiff as hell. Where you run into trouble is between #2 and #3. If you lower the car for looks or to get that edge in the occasional autocross but refuse to stiffen the car enough to control the movement of roll centers and prevent suspension bottoming or bind, you can get some really ugly handling. Some people will disagree and claim that that is exactly their setup and it works for them, but I think what's probably happening is that they focus on the increased grip while ignoring the ugly bite-you-in-the-ass characteristics they've put in the car. They either get used to them and forget how sweet the car was before the mods, never really drive the car at the very limit, or the cost of the mods clouds their opinions. If they are very good drivers they might be able to make it work, but with far more effort than is really necessary. Again, this is all IMHO and I'm neither an engineer or a world class chassis designer. I have put a lot of effort into studying the E36 suspension over the last year and these opinions represent only the conclusions I've drawn from that experience. -- Ron Katona
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#4. wheel weight removal - from j.demartino@us.qiagen.com
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:31:30 +0100 From: j.demartino@us.qiagen.com Subject: wheel weight removal Hi Listers Regarding the thread about the wheel damage during removal of wheel weights. The same thing happened to me at Big O Tires in Valencia, CA... removal by screwdriver resulting in considerable gouging. However, I was not treated with nearly the level of good will that Chester was. The Manager, Art Gayton, inspected the rims, agreed to fix 3 of 4 of them, asked me to come back in a week as he was leaving for vacation in an hour. After not returning my calls for a week, I returned back two weeks later and he basically told me to stick the rims up my A$%! This is greatly simplified and the actual situation was much more infuriating but I will spare you the details. The message is caveat emptor and this particular problem does not seem uncommon. My advise is to have tires mounted at a dealer that mounts tires themselves, that way if something happens you are likely to have recourse. The only reason I didn't use a dealer is because the first two dealers I called told me they send their tires to a local tire shop, so I figured that must be what they all do. I finally found a dealer, New Century in Alhambra, that does their own tire mounting for the price of your first born. > John >
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#5. Dinan labor rates - from Jim Powell
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:48:35 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Subject: Dinan labor rates Just so I don't spread the wrong idea, I'm not thinking of having Dinan install a clutch for me. I was just researching new clutches, looked at one on their site, and saw their labor rate. Stunned temporarily out of my senses, I inadvertantly looked at the price of the clutch itself. Gaaaackkkk! Jim
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Kuhmo Tire user tells his opinion - from JSDONE@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:49:47 EST From: JSDONE@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Kuhmo Tire user tells his opinion I own a 98 M3 convertable, The car came the Dunlop tires and I was pretty happy with them. Around 22,000 miles came around and the rear's were really bad and the front's were 3/32" maybe.. When I checked out the Yok's, Mich, Dunlop's and others I was blown away with $200-275 prices per tire..... The staggered set-up also hurt on the rotation side as well.. I saw a small add in Car& Driver on Kuhmo, looked them up on the net and got the price... Awesome.. Actually, ordered the tires thru Tirerack and had them shipped to my local tire store that I do business with. They came in with one week and the owner was so impressed he wanted to have the address so he could inventory them for a lower pricepoint product.. I have had these tire on for 3000 miles and actually think they hold more than the Dunlop's. Running in the rain and in a lot of water simply is no problem. I have been running it hard and really like the tires. I will for sure replace them with more Kuhmo's...I'm afraid they will get too popular and raise there prices.. My dealer said they simply wanted some of the american marketshare and dropped the prices to get some inital marketshare... Enjoy them while you can...Love Them....John
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#7. RE: Dinan Labor units - from Jonathan Caldito
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:52:56 -0500 From: "Jonathan Caldito" <jonnym3@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Dinan Labor units If Dinan is following BMWs labor rate, then one unit equals to 6 mins. BMW calls them FRUs (Flat Rate Units) So 10 units or 1.0 units = 1 hour _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#8. Re: [E36M3] e36 dinan stage 3 susp questions - from Matt Henson
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:01:46 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] e36 dinan stage 3 susp questions Ron, I follow and agree with everything you said except the part about the downward pointing roll axis decreasing understeer. This is from Puhn's "How to Make Your Car Handle," pg 34. I'm not an expert on this stuff, though. This would be even more understeer in the lowered cars.. What do you think? -Matt > > There are some things in this case that work in your > favor like the fact > that the roll axis--a line drawn from the front to > rear roll > centers--will tilt downwards towards the front of > the car and that > usually results in less understeer. There will also > be a benefit from > the lower CG that should increase grip making the > understeer perhaps > less noticeable. However, the understeer problem > still exists. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#9. Re: [E36M3] no HFM (was Shop Recommendation - from Matt Henson
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:09:01 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] no HFM (was Shop Recommendation I drove for like a week once with the HFM disconnected. It was a little weak but drivable. Once I figured out that it was not hooked up I started it up and it ran like crap. Then I figured out that it was in backwards. Fixed that and it ran better. I think that the DME must calculate the fuel based on RPM, Throttle Position and the data in it's adaption tables. Of course it runs in closed loop most of the time anyway, when is can use the O2 to set the fuel amount. It was probably pulling out a bunch of timing to make sure it didn't blow up during WOT. The post below makes it sound like that software didn't pull out as much timing.. -Matt --- Ron Buchalski <rbuchals@hotmail.com> wrote: > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:51:39 > From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shop Recommendation > > Huh? No HFM? What was telling the DME about intake > airflow? > > I don't see how it's possible for the DME to > determine how much fuel to > inject if it doesn't know about airflow into the > engine, unless it can make > an assumption based on RPM, O2 level, throttle > position, etc. > > Please explain... > > -rb > > >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 14:37:49 -0800 (PST) > >From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shop Recommendation > > > >I agree 100% with Jim. Don's shop is where Steve D > hosted the dyno session > >last Winter. The only quib I have with him is that > he's an E30 kinda guy > >=) > >But he is an avid BMW enthusiast and knows his > stuff. He had a hunch about > >the whole HFM thing when dyno testing the cars and > asked for my permission > >to entirely disconnect the flexible tubing (from > the throttle body) from > >the HFM. I agreed. He did it and then we dynoed my > car again. So with no > >HFM, no airbox, no nothing (I know...double > negative, but I'm from > >Brooklyn, ya know?), my car pumped out more power > (equivalent to the JimC > >intake on Wayne Miller's car). He was truly > pleased to see the results and > >cheered. > > > >He'll get my business when my warranty expires. > > > >Chester > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you > from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the > list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the > requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as > the > subject of the message. > ************************************************************* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#10. Re: [E36M3] GT3 Brakes on M3 - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:42:17 EST From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] GT3 Brakes on M3 In a message dated 1/16/01 1:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, steved3@idt.net writes: Just installed a set of 380mm brakes (with 996 turbo/GT3 calipers) on an M3 this morning Steve, This just isn't any M3...it's a e46M3!!!!!!!!! Where, how, who.....geeezzz;-)) Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA AS Champion 1997 & 2000 13 BSP 2001
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#11. Re: [E36M3] Dinan labor units - from Chris Casey
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:49:26 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Casey <ccasey1@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Dinan labor units At the risk of once again spreading disinformation, I quote the Dinan website: Labor "units" are provided as a reference for determining your retail installation price for each Dinan Performance Product. Each labor unit represents 1/10 of an hour. Labor units indicated for suspension systems include alignment. Labor units indicated for individual suspension components are for the product indicated only, assuming that the item is being installed separately. Labor units indicated for individual suspension components do not include an alignment, although it may be advised after installing some products. Labor units indicated for shocks, struts and bushings are for each item, even though the products may typically be installed in pairs. -Chris > -------------------- 8 -------------------- > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:55:44 -0800 > From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> > Subject: Dinan labor units > > What time period does Dinan use as a 'unit' on their > labor quotes. Is > it 6 mins, 10 mins, 3 weeks? > > Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/