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#1. RE:Sway bars. Anyone tried more than one brand? + more... - from shane.a.kleinpeter@accenture.com
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:19:39 -0500 From: shane.a.kleinpeter@accenture.com Subject: RE:Sway bars. Anyone tried more than one brand? + more... Rob wrote: Which brings me to my next question: On an M3 with stock suspension how much rougher is the ride with aftermarket bars? I know this is hard to qualify but if an H&R/Bilstein is 40% stiffer/rougher where would you rate the bars? I reply: Rob, I have the UUC bars and don't find them really any rougher riding than with the stock bars, but I do run on relatively smooth roads in NC. I have an otherwise stock suspension. My issue with the larger bars is that there is a lot more noise (crunching ugly sounds that my wife hates) coming from the car now. To test that it was the bars, I swapped them out and the noise went away. I replaced the sway bar end links on the front of the car and the noise went away for a while, but is back after about 3 driver's schools. What I think these aftermarket bars really need to come with (with appropriate price increase if necessary) is beefier end links. I have found this to be true with the Suspension Techniques bars on my 535is as well. It's worth noting that the UUC bars came with rear end links, but that doesn't help the front ones any. If anyone knows of better front anti-roll bar end links, I'd be interested in hearing about them. Cheers, Shane Kleinpeter '96 M3 '88 535is Accenture is the new name for Andersen Consulting as of January 1, 2001. Our web address is http://www.accenture.com This message is intended solely for the designated recipient, may contain privileged or confidential information and may be subject to confidentiality agreement(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy the original communication.
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was Shock life) - from Sean Hester
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:54:07 -0800 From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was Shock life) >Anyway, getting back to another part of my question, >how does changing the shock bump/compression Front and >Rear affect roll balance during turn entry vs turn >exit? Wow that's a lotta words.. Someone (Sean?) said >that adjusting the front rebound or rear bump affects >leaving a corner while the opposite settings affect >entry. Given that the linear weight transfer is only >a function of acceleration and not shock settings I >don't see how it works. I'd think that adjusting the >shocks in either bump or rebound would affect entry >and exit. Anyone care to expound? nothing here is absolute. to actually do the math here would take 100 pieces of paper. sometimes it pays to think about it in a more simple way. (though what i'm gonna say isn't really "simple") -------------- say you have two cars. one has no suspension. (shocks that are 100% stiff and allow no movement at all, bilstiens riding on the bump stops, etc...) the other car has a really loose suspension. they both are going 100 mph. and slam on the brakes. which has more weight on the front wheels? people keep saying "weight transfer is only effected by acceleration". well sort of... what happens to our two cars? the one with no suspension feels the effects of the weight transfer due to acceleration (deceleration). since the car has no suspension (we'll assume the car doesn't lift any wheels off the ground) the static center of gravity stays fixed (the car doesn't lean). so the only weight transfer is due to acceleration what happens to the one with a suspension? as the car leans (noses down) the static center of gravity changes. it moves forward a bit. this places a bit more weight on the front wheels then the other car had. it gets the weight due to acceleration, and it gets the weight due to the change in CG. therefore the one with a (looser) suspension has more weight on the front wheels ------------------- how does that apply to me saying that adjusting the rebound of the rears effects entry? well... the looser the rears are, the more the car is allowed to nose down. this means more weight on the front wheels, less on the back. so... let's loosen them up all the way right? too bad it's not that simple. (and why i say nothing is absolute) if they're too loose, then the weight will transfer fast enough that the springs will "rebound" and push the weight back again. that's bad. so you can only loosen them enough to allow the car to take a set (lean) and stay there. the same theory applies to the front on exits. the weight is going back. if you loosen the fronts, the car will lean back more and put more weight on the rear. if you stiffen the fronts the car will lean less and more weight will stay at the front. ---------------------- P.S. feel free to do the math on this. you'll discover that this "leaning" effect is pretty small. meaning that adjusting the shocks is a pretty small effect. but it's NOT ZERO. and it's enough that you can feel the difference (if you're an experienced driver) the real way to do car setup is springs, and sway bars and the like. but adjusting the shocks gives you little bit of control, in a small range, to do fine tuning. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Re: Shock Life - from Sean Hester
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:04:42 -0800 From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Shock Life >I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this. >Dampers can only affect the rate of suspension motions >and body roll/pitch. Weight transfer is always >directly controlled by those physical properties you >mentioned. The only way to slow it down is to turn in >slower. Newton didn't give us any time variable in >F=MA except, of course that in the A. > >Dampers can affect the rate of body roll but, for the >most part, body roll does not cause weight transfer, >it's the other way around. I think that the solution >keeps coming back to F/R relative roll stiffness. The >dampers can control the dynamic roll stiffnesses and, >hence, understeer vs. oversteer. ah... i think i know why we're not connecting here... i think we're (including me) are throwing the phrase "weight transfer" around too loosely. what we're really saying is "force in the -Y direction". meaning anything that pushes the wheel down into the ground. lots of things cause it. 1. forces from acceleration of the car. (this is the biggest one, and it's the one we CAN'T change (except by going slower)) 2. gravity. the gravitation force on the wheels isn't constant either, it's effected by the attitude (how much roll the car is experiencing) at the moment) 3. forces on the wheels from the springs pushing (or lifting) them. it's #2 and #3 that we can control. and only in TINY amounts compared to #1. when i'm talking about these things in terms of suspension tuning i'm ignoring #1. i can't change it, so why talk about it? i know i can change #1 by going slower. and alot of times, that's the answer. but if you're doing incremental suspension tuning (meaning you want a little less understeer here, or a little more there) ignoring #1 will mkae your life easier. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Re: Shock Life - from Sean Hester
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:12:13 -0800 From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Shock Life > > I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this. > > Dampers can only affect the rate of suspension motions > > and body roll/pitch. Weight transfer is always > > directly controlled by those physical properties you > > mentioned. The only way to slow it down is to turn in > > slower. Newton didn't give us any time variable in > > F=MA except, of course that in the A. > >Right... however, > >Imagine replacing the shock with a solid steel rod. Upon turn in 100% of >the weight transfer is felt on the control arm and therefore the wheel. >That tire immediately gets loaded up. Now remove the steel bar (shock) >completely. Upon turn in the weight now transfers through the *spring* >to the control arm to the wheel. The spring compresses until equilibrium >is achieved. During that compression, energy is stored in the spring and >therefore the physics cops are happy. The tire doesn't see an immediate >jump in load, but a more gradual ramping up of load as the spring >compresses. What this simulates is the difference between a shock set on >full stiff, and full soft... just taken to extremes. > >If we accept the fact that the stiff end of the car will always lose >traction first, then you can see how the transient handling of the car >can be influenced greatly by the shocks. If all else is equal, the end >of the car with stiffer shocks will lose traction first in transient >maneuvers. > > > Dampers can affect the rate of body roll but, for the > > most part, body roll does not cause weight transfer, > > it's the other way around. I think that the solution > > keeps coming back to F/R relative roll stiffness. The > > dampers can control the dynamic roll stiffnesses and, > > hence, understeer vs. oversteer. > > -Matt > >Right, but again it's understeer/oversteer in transitions that the >shocks influence most. Taking this one step further remember that >relative stiffness can be in *either* bump or rebound. The stiff end (in >roll resistance) of the car loses traction first (all else equal). >Whether you stiffen one end of the car in bump or rebound becomes a >matter of whether that end is doing something you don't like under >braking or acceleration - now we've introduced pitching moments! That's >what Sean was explaining about corner entry/exit understeer/oversteer. >-- >Ron Katona woo hoo! ron described what i tried to in my last couple long posts, but in a pretty different way. if you didn't understand mine, maybe this'll be clearer. or... if you didn't understand his, maybe mine will be clearer. hopefully we can get it explained before people's heard hurt. ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#5. leatherique - from Kit Wetzler
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:53:37 -0800 From: Kit Wetzler <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> Subject: leatherique > Although I am told by Duane C. nothing beats the Leather Master (it did > appear to be a very good product), I felt the Leatherique was the superior > choice. It does appear to feed the leather best and retain the natural > patina to the leather. The only thing that bugs me about Leatherique is that my seats ended up greasy for a little while afterwards. Maybe I put too much on? But, I'd wipe off the top and it kept kinda oozing out. Made the leather look much nicer, though. If you order the BMW starter kit, share it with a few buddies... I've done 3 cars and used maybe 1/20th of the bottles. -kit 97 m3
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#6. Re: Brake Upgrades - from Neil Maller
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:37:20 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Brake Upgrades on 1/25/01 9:34, "Steve D'Gerolamo" <steved3@idt.net> wrote: > I know E46 parts are a direct bolt on and I suspect the E46 M3's 325mm > brakes will probably work here too. Still, they are only a single piston > floating caliper setup. SD And while we don't yet know how much E46 M3 calipers would cost, it's a fair guess that they'll be pricey. I've been told that E36 M3 front calipers run over $500 each, so the E46 will surely be at least that much, plus the mounting brackets, and of course the rotors themselves. So worst case it could add up to not far short of $1500 for what might be just a modest improvement. Might as well bite the bullet and go for those P-brakes... Neil 96 M3
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#7. WTB: stock shifter lever - from drwillb
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:58:48 -0500 From: "drwillb" <drwillb@msn.com> Subject: WTB: stock shifter lever With all the aftermarket shifters installed out there I was wondering if anyone had a stock shifter for sale. I am posting this for a friend so please respond directly to Ralph at aquadoc@usamailbox.com Thanks, Bill Molina
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was Shock life) - from Matt Henson
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:59:24 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was Shock life) Thanks Sean, I think that this explains it. Adjusting the shocks only really affects the dynamic roll/pitch actions. In the steady state it doesn't matter and the weight transfer change is minimal (and it only affects the transitional part). So you can slow down the roll/pitch with shocks but that's about it. I wouldn't be surprised if people got into more trouble by adjusting the shocks too stiff and picking wheels off the road than anything else. Increasing the rear rebound stiffness too high, for example, could "reduce understeer" in transients by lifting the inside wheel off the ground. Too much bump and the roll stiffness of that end is increased as the outside wheel gets overloaded. I guess that adjusting the bump is a lot like having adjustable bars/springs, except that it only works in transients. I would think that one would be best off just setting them for critical dampening and calling it a day. Any more and you're removing weight from or overloading a wheel, any less and the springs aren't controlled. -Matt --- Sean Hester <seanh_race@hotmail.com> wrote: > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:54:07 -0800 > From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was > Shock life) > > nothing here is absolute. to actually do the math > here would take 100 > pieces of paper. sometimes it pays to think about > it in a more simple way. > (though what i'm gonna say isn't really "simple") > > -------------- > > say you have two cars. one has no suspension. > (shocks that are 100% stiff > and allow no movement at all, bilstiens riding on > the bump stops, etc...) > the other car has a really loose suspension. > > they both are going 100 mph. and slam on the > brakes. which has more weight > on the front wheels? people keep saying "weight > transfer is only effected > by acceleration". well sort of... what happens to > our two cars? > > the one with no suspension feels the effects of the > weight transfer due to > acceleration (deceleration). since the car has no > suspension (we'll assume > the car doesn't lift any wheels off the ground) the > static center of gravity > stays fixed (the car doesn't lean). so the only > weight transfer is due to > acceleration > > what happens to the one with a suspension? as the > car leans (noses down) > the static center of gravity changes. it moves > forward a bit. this places > a bit more weight on the front wheels then the other > car had. it gets the > weight due to acceleration, and it gets the weight > due to the change in CG. > > therefore the one with a (looser) suspension has > more weight on the front > wheels > > ------------------- > > how does that apply to me saying that adjusting the > rebound of the rears > effects entry? well... the looser the rears are, > the more the car is > allowed to nose down. this means more weight on the > front wheels, less on > the back. > > so... let's loosen them up all the way right? too > bad it's not that > simple. (and why i say nothing is absolute) if > they're too loose, then the > weight will transfer fast enough that the springs > will "rebound" and push > the weight back again. that's bad. so you can only > loosen them enough to > allow the car to take a set (lean) and stay there. > > the same theory applies to the front on exits. the > weight is going back. > if you loosen the fronts, the car will lean back > more and put more weight on > the rear. if you stiffen the fronts the car will > lean less and more weight > will stay at the front. > > ---------------------- > > P.S. feel free to do the math on this. you'll > discover that this "leaning" > effect is pretty small. meaning that adjusting the > shocks is a pretty small > effect. but it's NOT ZERO. and it's enough that > you can feel the > difference (if you're an experienced driver) > > the real way to do car setup is springs, and sway > bars and the like. but > adjusting the shocks gives you little bit of > control, in a small range, to > do fine tuning. > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you > from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the > list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the > requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as > the > subject of the message. > ************************************************************* > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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#9. Seat bolster wear - from NickG
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:10:28 -0500 From: "NickG" <nikog@mediaone.net> Subject: Seat bolster wear The driver's side seat bolster in the E36 M3 is prone to premature wear due to the basic design of the seat. It is possible to have the leather replaced under warranty under certain conditions though. One of the major reasons for the leather wearing through is because the seat foam underneath tears. When the seat foam tears, the metal framework of the seat begins to rub on the leather. At first, this wear will start tearing the thread apart. Given enough time, the leather will develop a hole. This kind of wear is completely covered under the standard BMW 4yr/50K warranty. The key is for the foam to be split. If the leather is worn through, but the foam is still intact, then that's just normal wear and tear (or maybe even lack of care). But if the foam is torn, the dealer should have no problems replacing both the foam and the leather. Been there, done that. If you detect that the seat foam is torn, do yourself a favor and wait till the leather and/or stitching is also showing signs of wear. That way, you'll get the leather replaced also. Nick
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was Shock life) - from Sean Hester
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:53:10 -0800 From: "Sean Hester" <seanh_race@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Rebound/Bump vs entry/exit (was Shock life) >I wouldn't be surprised if people got into more trouble >by adjusting the shocks too stiff and picking wheels >off the road than anything else. yeah. that's what koni's warning on their site is about. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com