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#1. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Chester Wong
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:39:38 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters Ok....you guys think I'm whacked or something. Sure, I didn't know exactly how the mechanics are, but I do know that valve float is caused by the oscillations of the spring. You reach a certain frequency where it resonates and goes into a standing wave, right? That's why you have double or triple valve springs. Different spring rates have different frequencies at which the valve enters a standing wave so when one valve would have failed at a specific RPM, the other valve(s) take over. Chester --- NickG <nikog@mediaone.net> wrote: > It's the spring's inability to control the valve movement that causes valve > float, not the lifter. A properly functioning lifter, whether hydraulic or > solid, doesn't affect the valve's closing. Opening yes, but closing no. The > valve spring has to pull the valve closed, but it doesn't have to compress > the lifter. Thus, the hydraulic lifters don't play a role in valve float. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from NickG
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 23:00:45 -0500 From: "NickG" <nikog@MediaOne.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters I see it in a couple of ways, both of which attribute valve float to the springs: A) the spring is designed to close the valve. The higher the RPM, the faster the valve's opening and closing rate. Eventually, a certain RPM is reached where the valve closes so fast that the spring can't provide enough tension and it ends up bouncing off of the seat. Now, the valve is off the seat while the piston is coming up. Smack! B) As the RPMs increase, the valve's opening and closing rate increases. Above a certain speed, the valve tip is no longer in contact with the camshaft follower (and/or lifter), as the valve's momentum 'throws' the valve open further than intended. At this point, the spring is no longer controlling the valve as it should, and the valve is 'floating'. The valve is in the wrong place at the wrong time and ends up hitting the piston. One thing that's for sure is that as the springs age, they become more susceptible to valve float (because they get weaker). Stressing the springs more than they were designed to handle (like faster opening and closing rates or more valve lift) will affect their lifespan. So the question becomes what valve lift and rate were the factory M3 springs designed to handle? Nick > Ok....you guys think I'm whacked or something. Sure, I didn't know exactly how > the mechanics are, but I do know that valve float is caused by the oscillations > of the spring. You reach a certain frequency where it resonates and goes into > a standing wave, right? That's why you have double or triple valve springs. > Different spring rates have different frequencies at which the valve enters a > standing wave so when one valve would have failed at a specific RPM, the other > valve(s) take over. > > Chester
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Jim Powell
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:59:25 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters I'm going to stare intently at my shoes and not say a thing. :) Jim Chester Wong wrote: > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:39:38 -0800 (PST) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters > > Ok....you guys think I'm whacked or something. Sure, I didn't know exactly how > the mechanics are, but I do know that valve float is caused by the oscillations > of the spring. You reach a certain frequency where it resonates and goes into > a standing wave, right? That's why you have double or triple valve springs. > Different spring rates have different frequencies at which the valve enters a > standing wave so when one valve would have failed at a specific RPM, the other > valve(s) take over. > > Chester > > --- NickG <nikog@mediaone.net> wrote: > > It's the spring's inability to control the valve movement that causes valve > > float, not the lifter. A properly functioning lifter, whether hydraulic or > > solid, doesn't affect the valve's closing. Opening yes, but closing no. The > > valve spring has to pull the valve closed, but it doesn't have to compress > > the lifter. Thus, the hydraulic lifters don't play a role in valve float. > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > *************************************************************
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Jim Powell
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:11:58 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters Now that you're done wondering if you are crazy Chester, read this: http://www.type2.com/~keen/west/valvesprings1 Its mostly right, at least as right as it needs to be. I still haven't found a good pictorial. All of my engine books are back in Wisconsin in storage. J'A'P Jim Powell wrote: > > > I'm going to stare intently at my shoes and not say a thing. :) > > Jim >
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Jim Powell
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Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:19:39 -0800 From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters Check this out too. http://www.auto-ware.com/shoptalk/hyd_sol.htm Its a long involved explanation as to all the problems with hydraulic lifters and high rpms. But read this and then think about how a hydraulic lifter equiped engine would have to have a higher open time to make up for lift. Solid lifters are superior to hydraulic lifter in every aspect except two in my crippled little mind. Hydraulic lifters are quieter and they do not require adjustment. Other than that, they suck eggs. But there's enough in this article to get you going. And now Young Chester, the web searches are your own responsibility, I have beer to drink. Jim Jim Powell wrote: > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:11:58 -0800 > From: Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters > > Now that you're done wondering if you are crazy Chester, read this: > > http://www.type2.com/~keen/west/valvesprings1 > > Its mostly right, at least as right as it needs to be. I still haven't found a good > pictorial. All of my engine books are back in Wisconsin in storage. > > J'A'P > > Jim Powell wrote: > > > > > > > I'm going to stare intently at my shoes and not say a thing. :) > > > > Jim > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > *************************************************************
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#6. 95' M3 Parts f/s (Anaheim,CA 92808) - from RacerxJLing@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 02:38:18 EST From: RacerxJLing@aol.com Subject: 95' M3 Parts f/s (Anaheim,CA 92808) I have the following parts for sale (all parts still on car and in perfect working order) Off a 5 speed 95'M3: All prices don't include shipping/can be picked up locally RMS Stage I Supercharger (Vortech) 20k miles w/Euro HFM & ITG filter & chip (Custom Conforti chip for Euro HFM)-$4000 Euro ellipsoid lights (covered w/ 3M protective light film) modified to fit REAL HID Phillips bulbs and Bosch ballasts-$725 SSR Integral GT1 wheels 18x9 rears/18x8 fronts w/ Yoko AVS Sports 235/40/18(20% tread) and 225/40/18 (50% tread) respectively- $1550 X-brace-$100 Email privately please.
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#7. Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:56:30 -0500 From: Eric.C.Dotson@travelers.com Subject: Re: Solid Valve Lifters I agree completely, if the solid lifter is in fact lighter, the valvetrain should be able to take more rpm. I just think there is more to it than just dropping in a set of solid lifters then going out and burying the tach. A lot of the forces at work increase exponetially with rpm, so you have to take into account more than just lifters. The least of which is the new cams you would need - solid cams are different than hydro. You'd also probably want to upgrade springs and retainers, and take a good look at the bottom end of the motor. Just for fun I looked at the latest BMP catalog at their solid valvetrain conversion kit. It's kind of an odd design, it uses little lash caps to adjust clearance instead of the shims of the Euro M engines. Doesn't look factory. However, the lifter is practically hollow, certainly lighter than stock. Also the kit comes with some BIG cams, 270+ degree monsters. Definitely not something you'd want on the street. All of this talk started with Eurosport's 300hp cam kit, so maybe Josh can give us the simple answer: What is the rev limiter in the software that comes with the kit? Jim C. set it at 7200 for the "normal" chip, right? If the cam kit only bumps it to 73-7400, it's probably not a big deal. I can't imagine Josh would sell the kit without any necessary parts. Eric 95 M3 00 Passat Wagon "Skip Bogard" <Skip.Bogard@ALUMni.DUKE.edu> on 03/22/2001 05:50:45 PM Please respond to Skip.Bogard@ALUMni.DUKE.edu To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> cc: Eric C Dotson/CL/Travelers Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters > I don't know if a lighter lifter is necessarily the key to 8k rpm, > but I think a solid lifter should be lighter than a hydraulic one. Think about this, which you probably know more intimately: a lot of the design points for valve trains parallel that of speaker driver design. Consider/compare how a tweeter is made vs. a valve: <snip> - Skip
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:45:38 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters >Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:50:45 -0500 >From: Skip Bogard <Skip.Bogard@ALUMni.DUKE.edu> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters > > > I don't know if a lighter lifter is necessarily the key to 8k rpm, > > but I think a solid lifter should be lighter than a hydraulic one. > >Think about this, which you probably know more intimately: a lot of >the design points for valve trains parallel that of speaker driver >design. Consider/compare how a tweeter is made vs. a valve: > <snip> > >2. You reverse direction, accelerate again, go through the reference >point and then decelerate, stopping at a negative (-) peak value. Like >valves again. While both a speaker cone and a valve travel in two directions (forward/backward, up/down, positive/negative; whatever you want to call it), a speaker cone can occupy both a positive and negative position with respect to it's reference (where it's suspension holds it when no signal is applied to the coil). A valve can only be located in a positive position with respect to it's reference (the valve seat). -rb _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#9. FS: Redline motor oil 10W40 $6/qt - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:22:07 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: FS: Redline motor oil 10W40 $6/qt Ok...case of 12. $6/qt. Local pickup only...sorry. Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:51:53 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Solid Valve Lifters Alright smarty-pants. Direct from the link you provided: ". The same thing holds true for a car engine, for a given spring load, lift and rate of compression (cam ramp and RPM) will cause the harmonics and oscillation to come into play. When this happens, the valve doesn't fully get the seating pressure it needs since one force is expanding the spring and the oscillation is causing the spring to want to vibrate. This causes the valve to float or stay partially open. This happens with cams with fast ramps or high RPM. " Unless this is the part you're saying is not part of the "mostly right" part =) Chester --- Jim Powell <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> wrote: > Now that you're done wondering if you are crazy Chester, read this: > > http://www.type2.com/~keen/west/valvesprings1 > > Its mostly right, at least as right as it needs to be. I still haven't found > a good > pictorial. All of my engine books are back in Wisconsin in storage. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/