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#1. Re: Strut Braces - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:43:07 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Strut Braces Ron Katona writes: >-------------------- 6 -------------------- >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:16:48 -0400 >From: "Ron Katona" <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> >Subject: GRM Tunnell Article and Dreaded Understeer > >So speaking of the dreaded understeer and car setup vs. driver ability, has >anyone read the "Sultans of Solo" article in the June Grass Roots >Motorsports? <snip> >Also, <gasp again> no strut tower brace! <snip> >sway bar settings than Bob's car. He's gone "outside the box" in order to >get a jump on the competition, but it shows what can be done when you drive >the car with it's strengths and weaknesses in mind instead of trying to >force the car to adapt to your driving style... not a knock on anyone's >driving, just an observation on how a successful racer is getting it done >and what we can learn from that. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Lew Becker writes: >-------------------- 9 -------------------- >Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:37:23 -0700 >From: "Lew Becker" <lmbeckercfls@earthlink.net> >Subject: JTD Rear Shock Tower Brace <snip> >I don't know that I want to coordinate a group buy personally (although, I >might -- I'd sure like to get a brace between the rear shock towers that >matches my JTD front strut brace). = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Can you say "Eye Candy"? While a strut tower brace adds a nice look to the car, I think that Bob Tunnell and others have shown that it's not a necessity. -Ron (my money is going to VIR, Summit Point and Nurburgring schools) Buchalski _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#2. Re: Dreaded Understeer (long) - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:57:30 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Dreaded Understeer (long) There are too many factors at work here for simplistic answers. Some things to think about. Swaybars ======== It's plain silly to say that the RD bars "suck" (John Robison on 4/23). First, plenty of people use these with success, as Ron Katona pointed out (4/24 post). Second, the 27mm RD front bar is only about 16% stiffer than the 26mm bars, not very much in the scheme of things. I do observe that there seem to be two fundamental schools of thought on E36 M3 bar sizing: Dinan's and everyone else. And both of them work, for different reasons. Dinan follows the classic practice of softening the front bar relative to the rear to reduce understeer. By all accounts the Dinan cars handle very well. However Dinan only sells complete suspension systems which include matched custom springs, shocks and in some cases other parts, so you can't consider his bars in isolation from the rest (see springs item). Everyone else basically sells a much larger front bar and a slightly stiffer rear. Since the stiffness of a swaybar varies with the 4th power of its diameter, my 27mm RD bar is some 90% stiffer than the stock 23mm, and the 26mm Eibach bar would be 63% stiffer. (See the camber item below for why these both work.) It's quite possible that one is a slightly better compromise than the other, but you'd have to drive them back to back under controlled conditions to find out (I think Jim El Nabli may have done that at some point). Experience shows that both are in the same ballpark. Camber ====== Some track tires (e.g. Hoosiers) require quite a lot of of static negative camber (3-4 degrees) to perform well on the E36 M3, and all benefit from some amount. This may partly be due to the tire design. However a major contributing factor is the E36 front suspension design using MacPherson struts, which give only modest camber gain as they compress. (Kit Wetzler pointed this out on in his 4/23 post.) Camber gain is the increase in negative camber while moving through its travel, due to the suspension's design geometry. Imagine the car rolling on to the outside wheel during cornering and compressing the suspension. If there were no camber gain, then the wheel would always lean at the same angle relative to the car body, and the outer tire's tread would tend to lift at its inside edge, reducing grip. To counteract this, some camber gain is designed into the suspension. Double wishbone geometry allows as much camber gain as wanted, but struts don't. However you don't want too much camber gain, because hitting bumps in a straight line also compresses the suspension, and large camber changes would make the car feel unstable. One way to minimize the effect of lack of front camber gain when cornering is simply to limit the car's ability to roll; the less it rolls, the less camber gain is required. You can achieve this with a bigger front bar (like RD/UUC/Eibach) or with stiffer front springs (see springs item), or both. The other way is to dial in a bunch of static negative camber, so that even though you lose some in roll you still end up with enough to work the tires right. Of course this also affects straight line characteristics. So once again it's a compromise. Springs ======= Kit Wetzler referenced some E36 M3 spring rates: - Stock front spring rate 105 rear 335 - HR Sport 200 380 and Ron Katona pointed out that Bob Tunnell is now using 505F/390R for his Auto-X car. I wish I knew what the Dinan rates are, but they don't publish that info. We do know that stock M3 front springs are really very soft for track or competitive use. In hard cornering they basically let the front flop over. Although a soft front should be good for grip that's only true up to a point, and in practice the camber gain problem becomes the key factor. Using stiffer front springs helps control things by limiting roll, and I suspect that to be the rationale behind Bob's choice. Really stiff springs also improve transitional response, and while I'm not an autocrosser, I assume that to be a factor for Bob too. (Shock damping also plays some part, but since most of us don't have double adjustable shocks I'm leaving this one alone. Besides, I don't know anything about it!) Bottom line =========== In his book "Driving to Win", Carroll Smith explains why some corner entry understeer is a *necessity* in order to be able to accelerate effectively out of the corner ("Fundamental Truth #4" on page 2-37; go buy the book, it's worth it). So assuming that you've already sorted out the spring, shock, swaybar, camber and tire pressure issues to some reasonable level of compromise, you're still going to have corner entry understeer to deal with. How much depends on how you drive. Neil 96 M3
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#3. Steering Racks, etc - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:01:16 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Steering Racks, etc Well, I'm finally preparing to part company with my first BMW, a 1985 E30 318i (*sniff*). The car hasn't seen much use over the past two years, when I purchased it's replacement (1993 525iT). Anyhow, I've been driving it to work this week to get my last bit of use from it, and it really dawned on me how much better the steering feels on this car versus my 1995 E36 M3. I haven't been able to quantify the differences, other than the M3 seems to have a variable ratio, while the 318i does not. Around town, the M3 ratio seems to be too slow (too much turning required), while on the road, the M3 raio seems to be a little too quick (too little turning required). By contrast, the E30's ratio seems to be just right (to me) for all situations. Now, it could have something to do with the fact that I've driven the M3 a total of 30k miles in three years, while I drove the 318i a total of 236k miles over the course of 13 years, so the 318i feels familiar. Another thing...the steering feel in the E30 is much better than in the M3. The E30 communicates much better through the steering wheel. One more thing...the feel of the E30 on the road...much more "fun"...like a go-kart (Eibach, Bilstein Sports, Suspension Techniques bars probably helps here), the driving position is great, the lower dashboard is more appealing, the driving view is broader, taller... If the E30 has the power and braking capabilities of the M3, I'd probably be in heaven. Damn, I'm gonna miss this car.... :-( Has any other E30 + E36 owner had similar thoughts when comparing the two models? -rb _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#4. Re: Euro Door Mirror - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:39:41 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Euro Door Mirror on 4/24/01 9:05 PM, Andrej Dolenc <adolenc@erols.com> wrote: > The Euro (E36) M3 came with a convex drivers side mirror. I replaced the flat > glass with this mirror. This replacement, along with adjusting the mirrors to > minimize the overlap of the left + right mirrors with the main rear-view > mirror in the car does wonders to make the M3 mirrors quite nicely usable. I > have this mirror on my M3 Andrej, Is it heated? Do you have the P/N? How did you buy it? TIA, Neil 96 M3
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#5. Re: Dreaded Understeer (long) - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:42:14 EDT From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreaded Understeer (long) Neil, Excellent post! Spoken like a true mechanical engineeer. I have Dinan springs on my '95 M3. I like them. I "think" you can buy Dinan's suspension parts piecemeal. At least I did about 14 months ago. Granted, the sales rep wanted to sell me the whole nine yards but I was able to just buy the springs alone - $298 + shipping. [I initially planned on buying Eibach sways but I replaced my stock rubber sway bar bushings with BMP urethane bushings and I now think the stock sway bars are fine.] As for Dinan's spring rates - I can assure you he continues the "soft front/stiff rear" concept to the springs. The rear springs are substantially stiffer than stock and not nearly as progressive as stock. Whereas the front springs are almost identical to stock, just a tad shorter. I can also tell you that the Dinan springs are horribly mismatched with standard Bilstein struts - rear is fine. The Bilstein struts are way overdamped for rebound with the soft Dinan front springs. I don't think I get any wheel extension over small bumps. Just a "crash" when the car falls down. Dinan used to sell Bilsteins with his suspension kits. Now I only see Koni SA offered. I thought Dinan had specified a custom valving. But when I called Bilstein to inquire, the guy said "no". I don't believe it. My combo is so bad I think Dinan would have been run out of town by previous buyers by now. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 - Revalved Bilstein struts planned Dallas, Texas
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#6. Re[2]: Euro Door Mirror - from Andrej Dolenc
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:53:22 -0500 From: Andrej Dolenc <adolenc@erols.com> Subject: Re[2]: Euro Door Mirror Neil Maller writes: >> The Euro (E36) M3 came with a convex drivers side mirror. I replaced the flat >> glass with this mirror. This replacement, along with adjusting the mirrors to >> minimize the overlap of the left + right mirrors with the main rear-view >> mirror in the car does wonders to make the M3 mirrors quite nicely usable. I >> have this mirror on my M3 > Andrej, > Is it heated? Yes, more so than the standard mirror it replaced. > Do you have the P/N? I do, at home on the box it came in (which is now cleverly used to store the stock mirror). I'll post it tonight if somebody else doesn't post it to the list sooner. > How did you buy it? Chester (Wong) organized a group purchase of these a while back, where'dya get them from Chester? Andrej '97 M3
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#7. Re: New E36/4 owner questions - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:05:59 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: New E36/4 owner questions on 4/23/01 5:55 PM, Dan & Anne Miley <mileyd@tiac.net> wrote: > > The clutch pedal has side-to-side play. I hear that there is a > plastic bushing that wears out. Correct. Many of them also begin to squeak, and lubing doesn't fix it. > Should I have the dealer fix this under warranty? They might do it, but that won't fix it. > Has BMW come out with a better part? Nope. > Or should I use an after-market metal part? Who sells those? Ron Stygar sells a new stock pedal modified with much better bearings, or at least he used to. It cost $65 when I bought mine a year or so ago and works perfectly: no slop, no squeak. Email <Ron@unofficialbmw.com>. > and how big a deal is it to install? Depends on your tolerance for stuffing your upper body down into the driver's footwell. Large persons need not apply ;) Neil 96 M3 - Squeakless no slop Ron Stygar clutch pedal
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: Euro Door Mirror - from Carey Probst
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:11:39 -0400 From: "Carey Probst" <hcprobst@alum.mit.edu> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Euro Door Mirror Yes, it's heated, Chester Wong put together a group purchase chester_p_wong@yahoo.com Don't have part number but Chester may. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Maller" <neil.maller@gte.net> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: [E36M3] Re: Euro Door Mirror > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:39:41 -0500 > From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> > Subject: Re: Euro Door Mirror > > on 4/24/01 9:05 PM, Andrej Dolenc <adolenc@erols.com> wrote: > > > The Euro (E36) M3 came with a convex drivers side mirror. I replaced the flat > > glass with this mirror. This replacement, along with adjusting the mirrors to > > minimize the overlap of the left + right mirrors with the main rear-view > > mirror in the car does wonders to make the M3 mirrors quite nicely usable. I > > have this mirror on my M3 > > Andrej, > > Is it heated? > Do you have the P/N? > How did you buy it? > > TIA, > > Neil > 96 M3 > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > ************************************************************* > > >
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Re: Euro Door Mirror - from nabli@attglobal.net
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:37:24 -0400 From: nabli@attglobal.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Euro Door Mirror Hi Neil, The part numbers are: 51 16 2 267 191 Drivers 51 16 2 267 224 Passenger W/O writing Chester did set up a group purchase I guess sorta maybe he did. LOL! Hey Chester, you always seem to get such a good deal - hoe do you do it! ;-) Cheers, Jim E. Neil Maller wrote: > Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:39:41 -0500 > From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> > Subject: Re: Euro Door Mirror > > on 4/24/01 9:05 PM, Andrej Dolenc <adolenc@erols.com> wrote: > > > The Euro (E36) M3 came with a convex drivers side mirror. I replaced the flat > > glass with this mirror. This replacement, along with adjusting the mirrors to > > minimize the overlap of the left + right mirrors with the main rear-view > > mirror in the car does wonders to make the M3 mirrors quite nicely usable. I > > have this mirror on my M3 > > Andrej, > > Is it heated? > Do you have the P/N? > How did you buy it? > > TIA, > > Neil > 96 M3 > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > *************************************************************
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Screeching/Grinding Brake noise, but pads seem to have 60% - from nabli@attglobal.net
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:40:35 -0400 From: nabli@attglobal.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] Screeching/Grinding Brake noise, but pads seem to have 60% left. Thanks Chester. BTW, your check is in the mail! :-) Talk about being reeled in by another M3! Damn he was quick. Jim E. Chester Wong wrote: BTW, I have some pics of the event: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=838931 <http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=838931&a=12694195&f=0> &a=12694195&f=0 Congrats goes to my bud Jim E who was signed off twice and advanced to the green run group for the third day at Summit Point...on street tires no less! I love picture 19 :)