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#1. Re: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36... - from Daniel Smith
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:02:16 -0700 From: Daniel Smith <dls@daniel.org> Subject: Re: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36... I think I reached the point where I don't care what other drivers THINK I'm driving. I have a debadged (rear) M3. I'll probably debadge my Audi S4 Avant as well. Of course on the M3, I'm sure the rollbar gives a few drivers a double take. As for brakes, I'm about to go Big Brake all around on the M3. I don't care if I don't use all of its potential. I just want the confidence of being able to stop consistently (I don't like fade @ turn 14 at Thunderhill!) Yep, overkill. That's why I got a rollbar - just so I could have harnesses. If someone wants to blow by me on the freeway or some random road, fine. I'll live to drive my manual and paddle-shifting cars on the track another day :-) sharked, CAI, x-brace, AA Exhaust, barbarian, TC Kline rollbar, and a bunch of driving schools... Daniel -- Daniel L. Smith - dls@daniel.org - Sonoma County, CA
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#2. RE: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) - from Rob Norwalk
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:09:51 -0500 From: "Rob Norwalk" <Robert_J_Norwalk@raytheon.com> Subject: RE: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) Steve, No doubt about that. When I said "you", I didn't mean _you_ :) That message was for the spend-money-to-go-faster crowd. I just nabbed your subject line, since it seemed more relevant. No personal critique intended - unless you're a stomper ;) Rob 93 325 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Sun" <stevesun@midway.uchicago.edu> To: "Rob Norwalk" <Robert_J_Norwalk@raytheon.com> Cc: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:53 PM Subject: RE: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) > > You don't need bigger brakes...really. Most probably you need to use the > > ones you have less and more effectively :) > > I don't "need" bigger brakes. They are just fine on the track, but my > point earlier is that my Type R out-brakes my M3 because of it weighs > less, and has better "brake size to weight" ratio. > > Steve > 99 M3 > >
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#3. RE: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) - from Fadeev, Alex
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:33:29 -0500 From: "Fadeev, Alex" <alex.fadeev@verizon.com> Subject: RE: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) Steve Sun [mailto:stevesun@midway.uchicago.edu] wrote: > > > Is your M3 able to engage the ABS during hard braking? > > Yes, ABS is active during hard braking. > > > If so, then how will bigger brakes help stop you shorter? The > > tires are already at the limit of their grip. > > This is a concept that I don't fully understand. Let's say you > have a 325i and an M3, both weigh about the same. Put the same > tires on both cars. Although the M3 has bigger brakes, you are > saying that both cars will stop in the same distance if the ABS > is engaged on both cars. Steve, I will join Richard in saying YES. > This is clearly not the case. I don't believe any rag has tested regular E36 stopping distances with M3 wheels and tires. Non-M3 E36s come with either 15 or 16" tires (longer and narrower tire patch) and either all season Michelins or Dunflop tires. I suspect that if you put same size MXX3s on both cars they will have the same brake distances. That's assuming equal weight and identical brake pad/rotor compounds (not the size). > Also, why does the Boxster S stop better (shorter) than the > Boxster? They are the same car (engine aside) except the S > has bigger brakes. I bet wheel/tire differences have everything to do with that. Assuming your OEM brakes can lock the wheels up (repeatedly for ABS), bigger brakes will only buy you bigger heat sinks. alex f
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#4. Re: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) - from Rich Gay
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:35:01 -0500 From: Rich Gay <rich_gay@mac.com> Subject: Re: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) on 5/15/01 3:44 PM, Steve Sun at stevesun@midway.uchicago.edu wrote: >> Is your M3 able to engage the ABS during hard braking? > > Yes, ABS is active during hard braking. > >> If so, then how will >> bigger brakes help stop you shorter? The tires are already at the limit of >> their grip. > > This is a concept that I don't fully understand. Let's say you have a > 325i and an M3, both weigh about the same. Put the same tires on both > cars. Although the M3 has bigger brakes, you are saying that both cars > will stop in the same distance if the ABS is engaged on both cars. This > is clearly not the case. If you are able to engage the ABS, then the tires are already at their limit of adhesion. They have no more grip. Putting bigger brakes on doesn't give the tires more grip. > Also, why does the Boxster S stop better (shorter) than the Boxster? They > are the same car (engine aside) except the S has bigger brakes. The M3 vs. a 325, or Boxster S vs. Boxster, perhaps the suspension differences let the rear tires do more work? Perhaps the ABS unit in an M3 or Boxster S is more efficient and can get an extra few feet of stopping distance? - Rich
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#5. RE: [E36M3] Re: M3 vs. Non M3 E36... - from Dave Spragg
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:49:54 -0400 From: "Dave Spragg" <dspragg@mediaone.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: M3 vs. Non M3 E36... Keep in mind that the tires used in these tests are OEM and conditions vary at their test site. The big issue here is tires though. Most decent sporty cars will pull very close to 1 G (if not a little more) on a skid pad with R-Compounds up to temperature... but those numbers vary widely when tested as well due to tires. Being familiar with both the 99 M3 and 95 Integra GSR I can say with absolute confidence that the tires on the M3 (Michelin Pilot Sports) were vastly superior to those on my 95 GSR (Michelin XGTV4...not the new Pilot version of the same) on any surface wet or dry. A similar factor applies to tires for stopping but not the same one as tire construction varies here too. ABS systems also vary which affects the numbers as well. Beware of "tables of data from some magazine" for analysis. Given how seriously these boys take their testing though... on stock tires I bet your right. Dave Spragg dave@spragg.com Natick, MA 99 M3 Sharked 92 330is Sharked and Supercharged -----Original Message----- From: Neil Maller [mailto:neil.maller@gte.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:54 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Re: M3 vs. Non M3 E36... Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:49:40 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: M3 vs. Non M3 E36... on 5/15/01 1:44 PM, "Fadeev, Alex" <alex.fadeev@verizon.com> wrote: > How about a reality check: every non-neglected car on the road has big > enough breaks to engage ABS (or lock the tires) at any speed. And it's > highly unlikely that either you or the car behind you have been braking hard > enough to fade the stock brakes on the street. So getting close to being > rear ended has more to do with you braking unexpectedly and the reaction > time of the driver behind you. Reality check for you, Alex <g> - not every car has equal braking ability. It's a question of weight and grip, not fade. From the Road & Track road test summary: Make/model 80-0 mph ========================= ======== BMW M3 200 feet Acura Integra GS-R 242 Chevy Corvette Z06 212 Viper GTS 278 Ferrari 360 Modena 188 VW New Beetle 272 Rolls Royce Silver Seraph 295 I you were to brake hard into the ABS, your M3 would soon be a new hood ornament on that 3 ton Roller behind you. Neil 96 M3 ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message. *************************************************************
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#6. AVS Sports on the track - from Jeff Stowe
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:52:32 -0700 From: Jeff Stowe <jrstowe@pacbell.net> Subject: AVS Sports on the track I recently changed from MXX3s to Yoko AVS Sports on my 98 M3/4. Can anyone recommend a good starting pressure for the track? Also, can anyone provide any insights as to what differences in handling/performance I should expect from this change in rubber? I am planning on starting out pretty slow (not that I am ever all that fast) until I can get a feel for them, but it would be nice to know if there are any material differences to be conscious of. thanks, jeff
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#7. WTB 8.5x17 M contours - from Jeff Stowe
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:58:01 -0700 From: Jeff Stowe <jrstowe@pacbell.net> Subject: WTB 8.5x17 M contours I am looking to buy two 8.5" M-contours if anyone has them taking up space in their garage. Coincidently, I have two 7.5" M-contours for sale or trade. Currently mounted with 225/45 MXX3s with about 50% tread left or 1 with 50% and 1 brand new (spare tire). jeff
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#8. RE: [E36M3] AVS Sports on the track - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:58:49 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jbassett@geysernetworks.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] AVS Sports on the track > I recently changed from MXX3s to Yoko AVS Sports on my 98 > M3/4. Can anyone > recommend a good starting pressure for the track? The one and only time I ran the AVS Sports on the track (in the dry), I ran with my street pressures of 28F/26R cold. Seemed to work fine, no major problems with tire rollover. It's been awhile since I ran the MXX3s on the track, so I can't directly compare the two, but the AVS Sports felt very good on track. Grip levels were fine. I did notice that I was locking up the fronts occasionally going into Turn 11 (Laguna) - apparently the PF90 pads had more grip than the tires (and I was not into the ABS). Hope that helps, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4
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#9. M3 brakes - from Andy Chi
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:52:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Chi <m3flyer@yahoo.com> Subject: M3 brakes While our M3 does out brake about 95% of cars on the road today, tires also have a lot to do with it. An M3 shodded with those POS Faulken tires are not going to stop anywhere near as short as one shodded with S02PP or KD. As an aside, most people can't brake worth a damn on the road. One of my clients is a high line bodyshop in LA and one week I saw 10 M3's in for rear end accidents. I myself have been rear ended three times in my M3. It's ludicrous. I only wish that the useless mouth piece of GM called NHTSA would mandate some kind of brake standard instead of insisting on crappy headlights and DRL's on cars and give us ECE spec headlights. To give you a better perspective. On the street, to most people, if you brake even 6/10th in your M3, your M3 would look like it has almost come to a complete stop as soon as the brake lights come on. Couple that with slow reaction time and S rated tires and 4 year old brake fuilds, it's not hard to see why so many M3's have been rear ended. Andy 98 M3 black/black __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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#10. Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) - from Dorffer, Rich
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:58:43 -0400 From: "Dorffer, Rich" <RDORFFER@CleIndians.com> Subject: Brakes (was: RE: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36...) Steve said> >This is a concept that I don't fully understand. Let's say you have a >325i and an M3, both weigh about the same. Put the same tires on both >cars. Although the M3 has bigger brakes, you are saying that both cars >will stop in the same distance if the ABS is engaged on both cars. This >is clearly not the case. Yes it is if the tires are the limiting factor and not the brakes' ability to stop the car. >Also, why does the Boxster S stop better (shorter) than the Boxster? They >are the same car (engine aside) except the S has bigger brakes. Wrong. The Boxster weighs 2,778 lbs (2,888 lbs with Tiptronic) and rides on Front: 205/55 ZR 16 on 6" wide wheels & Rear: 255/50 ZR 16 on 7" wide wheels while the Boxster S weighs 2,855 lbs (2,943 lbs with Tiptronic S) and rides on Front: 205/50 ZR 17 on 7" wide wheels & Rear: 255/40 ZR 17 on 8.5" wide wheels. I am not sure on the type of tires but I would bet the 17 inchers are grippier than the 16 inchers on the base Boxster and, along with the weight distribution of the S, more than overcome the ~55 - 77 lbs weight disadvantage of the "S". Regards, Rich
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#11. Re: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36... - from Roy Kao
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:49:20 -0400 From: "Roy Kao" <bimmerphile@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] M3 vs. Non M3 E36... Well, if you are able to get a closer look, almost none of the M3-wanna-be's change the door bumper badge. If they go through all the trouble to get all of the other details right, that's usually the one thing they miss. You can get the entire aerodynamics package, including the rear diffuser, and the mirrors now through mail order but I guess the one thing you still can't get through a mail order house is the bloody motor! I guess that's the one advantage the new E46 M3 holds, it would take a very determined effort and a whole lot more money to get a run of the mill E46 coupe to look like the new M3. Roy '99 M3/2...You know, the genuine article _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.