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#1. Suspension set up - from DiVincenti, A.J.
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:58:36 -0500 From: "DiVincenti, A.J." <ADiVin@lsuhsc.edu> Subject: Suspension set up Jonathan, there is no standard answer to what camber change you would get with coilovers. It would depend on what the ride height was set at for one and you would probably get different results with different cars. I doubt you can get -2.0 without plates, shims or bolts. FWIW, I have Koni Coilovers and the TC Kline plates and my car is a street car and I love it. I did the camber plates for autox. When I was deciding on what suspension setup to go with, Jim L. who used to be at TC Kline, recommended this setup. I told him my car sees daily driver duty as well as autox. Going with the plates didn't seem to be an issue, street car or not. I'm quite certain that many people on this list have camber plates on a "street" car and are satisfied with the results. This is just another opinion. AJ -------------------- 4 -------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:14:51 -0700 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up Seth, So you're saying not to use camber plates on any street car, even if it sees track time (schools) and has coilovers? Just curious. What kind of camber change would be average with the addition of coilovers only, and no camber plates? As a street/school car, I'd think around -2.0 (f) and around -1.5 (r) would be perfect, no? Anyone know if this is possible with a change to c/o only and no camber plates, shims or crash bolts? Thanks! Jonathan L.
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#2. Re: flywheel rattle - from Ron Katona
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:06:55 -0400 From: "Ron Katona" <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: flywheel rattle Paul England wrote: > I was just talking about this with Neil Deshpande (not on this list, but on > UUC) today. A lightweight flywheel does not, in fact, free up any horsepower > at all. [...] Note that I carefully chose my words <g>. I said "performance," not HP. Does a thicker tranny fluid negate the _performance_ advantage of the flywheel swap? As you correctly point out, the LTW flywheel is most advantageous in the lower gears. For my autocross ride, this is perfect. However, a thicker fluid robs power all the time. What is the net result of a lightened flywheel and heavier fluid? I'm not willing to do the testing, nor am I willing to risk throwing away a large investment in this particular mod by running a heavier fluid. > all depends on how you plan on using your car. I agree. For me, a few 10th's of a second can mean the difference between hundreds of dollars in contingency winnings or going home with nothing (like this weekend - damn rain!). You can bet I'm not willing to try the heavier fluid so I don't have to put up with the rattle while ideling at the Wendy's drive thru window. >As far as heavier oil > reducing horsepower, it sort of does. The engine will make precisely the > same amount of horsepower regardless, however if more of it is used sloshing > the crank through the pan or turning the oil pump, less is available for > powering the gearbox [...] We're talking gearbox fluid not engine oil, but the same thing applies: the motor makes the same power, but driveline losses are greater with the thicker tranny fluid. Again, the question is whether it's enough to negate the performance gained by the LTW flywheel... I can't say for sure, but I'd suspect it is. Thicker tranny fluid also makes shifting more difficult, especially when the tranny is cold as is often the case at an autocross event. Now that doesn't mean I can't understand and respect others' desire to quiet their drivetrains, but given the small performance gain of the LTW flywheel, I wonder what the overall benefit from this non-inexpensive mod is when combined with a heavier fluid? Why not just skip the whole thing and save a bunch of cash if your goal is not the last n'th degree of performance, but a silky drivetrain? -- Ron Katona
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up - from Ahmad Lutfeali
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:12:19 -0000 From: "Ahmad Lutfeali" <m3_racer99@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up <html><DIV> <P>OK. Lets get this ambiguity out of the way. How in the world can KMACs </P> <P>1) Make noises? (when they are bolted in place)</P> <P>2) Create ride harshness???? This one keeps going on and on. I have used the car with and without KMACs and must say there is NO difference in ride (running stock camber w/ and w/o KMAC). Because there is no play or movement within camber plates, how is the ride quality affected?? </P> <P>In short, NO Kmacs dont make any noises what so ever and no they do not affect ride quality. (I have done my research on this, spoken to Will Turner, and if someone can prove me wrong, please provides facts). </P> <P>Jonathan, </P> <P>if you would run shims at the bottom of the strut, there is no way you can run 8.5s in front. You will get much less clearance since the wheel will be moved out (angle) while the hub assembly and the struts stay static, hence moving the top of the wheel closer to the strut. You will have to get a hub centric spacer (I had to use 10mm in my stock 98 with shims; 8*17 wheels with 245s Hoosiers). In my 97 with KMAC, Bilstein/H&R I have no problem running that setup without any spacers and have no tire rub on strut.</P> <P>For street application (since you mentioned no track duty). I woudnt worry about camber much. However if you would want to add more camber, the best way is to swap the strut hats which would give you about close to -2 camber and will not affect your tire clearance like the shims do.</P> <P>Ahmad</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:12:30 -0700<BR>From: "twisty M3" <<A href="http://lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?curmbox=F000000005&a=2eb2990311ebbe59862d1d6e2ee8c1a9&mailto=1&to=twistym3@hotmail.com&msg=MSG993160633.17&start=349101&len=14394&src=&type=x" target=_top>twistym3@hotmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>From: "Seth Thomas" <<A href="http://lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?curmbox=F000000005&a=2eb2990311ebbe59862d1d6e2ee8c1a9&mailto=1&to=porsche993@mindspring.com&msg=MSG993160633.17&start=349101&len=14394&src=&type=x" target=_top>porsche993@mindspring.com</A>><BR>><BR>>they do make the ride a lot stiffer, make a lot of noise, and<BR>>you run the risk of damaging your shock towers with them.<BR><BR>That's kind of what I suspected. Thanks.<BR><BR>>The only way I know is with shims,<BR>>reversing the upper strut mounts, or crash bolts. But that is all I >know<BR>>of<BR>><BR><BR>So is there generally no change in camber in the front when the suspension<BR>is lowered with coilovers? If that's the case, I guess my best bet (if I go<BR>that route) would be to stick with shims. I think with coilovers, there'd<BR>be slightly more clearance as opposed to stock struts, therefore I could<BR>probably get some 8.5" wheels up front, which I can't do now.<BR><BR>Jonathan L.<BR><BR><BR></P></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html>
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#4. RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up - from DrDan976@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:15:48 EDT From: DrDan976@aol.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up Jonathan and Seth, I just installed H&R coilovers and Ground Control Camber plates. The GC CC plates have their own custom spring perch that allows more travel for the shocks but it lowered the car a bit more than I wanted. The car was corner balanced and was 0.5% from 50/50 with the front being a tad front heavy. Jay @ GC was concerned that the threads on the coilovers were set to the top and I might get some spring binding. He was more than happy to swap the spring perch for a taller one. Soon to be delivered. The new spring perch will raise the car about .44" but then I can then thread it down using the wrenches (you gotta love that about coilovers). In the end I plan to install these new spring perches and lower the threads about .25". Eibach sway bars went in as well on firm/firm setting. New GC RSM also went in with the Z3 reinforcement plates. Both are nice pieces. So far so good with the suspension. I am relearning to drive my car again. Seth is right that the ride is alot more harsh without some bushings between the shock tower and the camber plate. Noise has also increased as well. One thing that I like about the GC CC plates is that they come with a E36 reinforcement plate, similar to the 96+ M3 reinforcement plates, that protect the shock towers from being deformed. The only problem I have now is that with Stoptech big brakes, I needed a 15mm wheel spacer. This pushed the wheel base in the front 30mm total and I am getting some rubbing. My solution is to use the new spring perch which should add another .25" to the front, roll the fenders, and shave 1.5mm's off the wheel spacers since there is about 3mm of clearance between the calipers and the inside of the IFG A5 wheels. This hopefully will give me enough room to stop the rubbing. Any other recommendations are greatly appreciated. Daniel Wang 95 M3
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#5. oil - from RONNIE WILSON
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:23:58 -0000 From: "RONNIE WILSON" <bigunit02@hotmail.com> Subject: oil Would using a thicker motor oil reduce or eliminate lifter noise ? I've been getting lifter noise and it is driving my crazy, car has 96,000 miles on it. Any suggestions ? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#6. Re: [E36M3] replacing spring pads - from nabli@attglobal.net
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:37:38 -0400 From: nabli@attglobal.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing spring pads 1. Lift both rear wheels off the ground 2. Remove rims 3. Unbolt bottom bolt to the shock which is connected to lower control arm 4. Press down on suspension and pull out coil spring to one side 5. Watch out for your brake line Good luck, Jim E. Jeff Stowe wrote: > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:17:00 -0700 > From: Jeff Stowe <jrstowe@pacbell.net> > Subject: replacing spring pads > > After reading Jim Powell's write up on replacing his spring pads and > following a couple of threads on this list regarding spring replacement, it > seemed like replacing my spring pads was a simple enough process that even a > bozo like me could handle it. Wrong! So I try following all the steps and > I can't get any tension off the spring pad at all. I am running the H&R > sport springs which are a little shorter than stock which should make this > even easier, right? I even tried using a spring compressor but couldn't get > the spring compressed enough to take any of the force off the spring pad. > Granted it was not the appropriate compressor for a BMW. It was way too big > for this application. So what am I doing wrong? I've reviewed Jim's write > up and the previous threads and it seems like the one thing I may have been > doing wrong is I only jacked up one side of the car at a time. Do both rear > wheels need to be off the ground at the same time? > > Second Question, I am replacing the rear pads primarily for cosmetic > reasons. The H&Rs drop the rear end too far IMO and car loses all its rake. > Will the thicker spring pads have any effect on the suspension geometry and > handling? It doesn't seem like it would have any effect but some > confirmation would be comforting as I am heading to Thunderhill next week. > > As always, I greatly appreciate any help or comments. > > jeff > > 98 M3/4 - with a saggy butt > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message. > *************************************************************
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#7. RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up - from Steven Hazard
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:52:53 -0500 From: "Steven Hazard" <98m3@mediaone.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up I've had the TC Kline Camber plates on my car since April of LY.....they were installed along with TC's C/O's and Custom Spring Perches. I have Zero additional ride harshness, no road feedback from these plates etc. I have just started to notice some Spring noise on start up after she has been sitting for some time. You can hear the springs "settle"...after that no noise, no nothing...The car is driven 25K a year....I took a good look at my shock towers this spring and they looked fine also.... Seth probably is making a solid point if you drive on crappy roads.....I don't..... she's a highway car (75 miles per day) and spends very little time on choppy potholed roads....I have nothing but 100% positive things to say about these plates.....I get 7 degrees of caster and run 3 degrees of Neg Camber up front....Try that with a KMAC!!!!!! No way.... Maybe it's because I bought into a complete TC Kline package? I'm not sure....but at least for me the whole package has been the berries....It better be..It's expensive :-) Regards, Steve >Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:06:40 -0400 >From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> >Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension set up > >Jonathan, > >What I am saying is not to use them but I don't recommend it. The reason >being is that they do make the ride a lot stiffer, make a lot of noise, >and >you run the risk of damaging your shock towers with them. Camber plates >are >nice for a car that does see track time as you can easily dial in the >amount >of camber that you want. My car has -2.4 all the way around and it needs >more in the front. So next time I align it and corner balance it we are >going to add another -.5 degree. But back to the point at hand. I think >you are right in that a good combo would be -2.0 (f) and -1.5 or -2.0 (r). >The rear is the easy adjustment with the rear lower control arms. The >front >is the one that is the problem. The only way I know is with shims, >reversing the upper strut mounts, or crash bolts. But that is all I know >of > >Seth Thomas >www.m3ltw.com > _________________________________________________________________
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#8. Re: [E36M3] k mac camber plates - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:12:18 EDT From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] k mac camber plates Kit, What year is your M3? Or more specifically what I am getting at: "Do you use the '96+ strut reinforcement rings with your K-MAC plates?" I ask because you can't use the reinforcement rings with the K-MAC or you loose almost all of your "adjustability." Ask me how I know. I learned this the hard way :-) after I had put my struts/K-MAC/rings on. I had to take the struts back off and reinstall without the rings. Oh, you could use the rings but you would have to completely grind down the lower lip on the reinforcement rings. I have not done this yet. I don't think you really need the reinforcement rings with K-MAC since the K-MAC already has sort of "ring." Also, did you know the K-MAC's are directional? There is a definite "left" & "right". Just like the stock offset strut hats on '96+ M3's. Again ask me how I know!! But hey! Practice makes perfect. After 14 round trips with my front struts, I can put the damn things on blindfolded and one hand tied behind my back. LOL Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas, Texas
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Koni Adjustable - from Chris Teague
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:23:45 -0700 From: "Chris Teague" <cteague@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Koni Adjustable www.ground-control.com Chris ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:17:06 -0500 > From: "Jonathan Lukens" <jlukens@new.rr.com> > Subject: Koni Adjustable > > > As I research Bilstein vs. Koni, I like the ride stiffness adjustability > of the SA's. > > Can anyone recommend a good source/vendor for the Koni's? TIA, > ........ > Jonathan Lukens > jlukens@new.rr.com
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#10. Re: [E36M3] replacing spring pads - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:36:15 EDT From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing spring pads Jim writes: > 1. Lift both rear wheels off the ground > 2. Remove rims > 3. Unbolt bottom bolt to the shock which is connected to lower control arm > 4. Press down on suspension and pull out coil spring to one side > 5. Watch out for your brake line Also be sure to release the parking brake. If the parking brake is on, the wheels won't drop as far. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas, Texas