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#1. AMG's w/out clutches - from Scott Yu
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:38:09 -0700 From: "Scott Yu" <scott@ditherdog.com> Subject: AMG's w/out clutches I read an interesting article in European Car on the plane, they mentioned that by M-B's reckoning, only 5% of their AMG customer base want manual trannies. (let's not get into how their customer base might EXPAND if they offered manual trannies...). Since they go by this figure, and are planning to bring in ~1000 C32's, apparently they would have to obtain some sort of DOT certification on 50 (5%) of these cars if there were to ship with manual trannies. This is what EC says - can someone explain to me how difficult it would be to obtain this certification if they already have a 6-cylinder C-class with a manual tranny rolling about in the states? Scott (LOVE my M3. Could POSSIBLY be swayed by a C32 w/6-speed manual & 332 lb-ft of torque :) (More easily swayed by an E46 M3, I suppose ;) > From: Robert Chay <rchay@mindspring.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... > > I read somewhere that it was gonna be remedied. But on the wrong engine! They're > offering a 5 (or 6) speed with the 240 but not the 320 c-class. Talk about ass > backwards. > > -Bobby
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#2. M3 Totalled at Summit 6/22 - info - from Vern Anderson
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:50:03 -0400 From: Vern Anderson <vanderson@cerebellumsoft.com> Subject: M3 Totalled at Summit 6/22 - info I've been following this story for a few days now and I realized that I haven't seen any posts about it on this board. I'm assuming that most of you may not be aware of this one. The story below was the first one I received, the links to the pics are included. The final follow-up from the instructor himself is at the bottom. I'm running at Summit tomorrow, so I may be able to get some more info - if so I'll pass it along next week... Vern Anderson 98 M3/2 - with a rollbar which I really appreciate now... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Driver's School Carnage Pal of mine was out at Summit Point today for a FATT, which is a Driver's School run by the track. He called me up and was quite excited: "I know now why you put that rollbar on you car, there was an E36 M3 driven off Turn # 3 in the second session and the car was absolutely flattened to the ground. You couldn't even see the roof anymore, it was flush with the hood and the trunk. AMAZING!" "Who was driving it?" I asked, "Anyone we know?" "Naw", pal Mike said, "There were three young Asian kids all with M3's in the Advanced Group (no Instructors) and they were hard-charging from Pit Out, never even warmed up the tires or brakes on the first lap. I can't believe how flattened that car was.....I thought BMW's would hold up a little better in a rollover." "Mike, there is NO car out there that will hold the roof in a rollover unless it has a bar or cage in it. Why do you think I keep preaching that for cars that go to the track?" I told him. It's the dirty little secret of track schools, folks. When the cars get creamed like that, they tow them behind the administrative buildings, out of sight, and unless you hear about the incident from someone who is there, its all kept very - VERY quiet. BTW, the driver went to the hospital in Winchester, VA ..... condition unknown, but reportedly he was not in too bad a shape. He did have stock belts on the car (no harnesses) so that probably saved his ass as he would have slid through them. You put harnesses in, you better have a bar in the car. Be careful out there.... ________________________________________________________________________ Follow-up, with picture info ________________________________________________________________________ Subject: Photos of Friday's Summit Point Rollover Now you can argue that you may not need a rollbar for going to the track and such, and indeed, many have driven Driver's Schools for years with no incidents. I think it depends to a large degree how hard you drive your cars. Anyways, this is (was) an E36 M3 that rolled at Summit Points FATT on 06/22/01 off Turn 3, during a BSR FATT in the second session, A- Group. Here's what I think happened at that corner, based on the photos and an eyewittness account that the car was 180 degrees from the direction of the track. Our A-Group Solo driver is racing is other two pals in their M3's. He goes in to # 3 (a left hander) too hot and slides the outer tires off the track (those are street tires, too...not enough lateral grip if you're driving at 10/10th's). As he drops the outer tires into the gravel/dirt, he panics and instead of driving STRAIGHT OFF the track, he jerks the wheel back to the pavement. This 'trips' the car as its already low on the outside of the car as it goes off. The M3 dances up on its right front fender, pivots up and then come down smack hard on the roof. It may not have rolled at all, just up and then down. That's my theory, anyways....I wasn't there. Lessons to ponder: 1) ALWAYS KNOW HOW TO EXIT THE TRACK when you go off the blacktop. If you don't know exactly waht to do, ask someone before your next track day. 2) If you're gonna drive it like a racecar, better prep it like one. That means safety equipment. 3) Wear harnesses in a non-barred car how are you going to keep your neck intact if this happens to you? No one seems to know exactly what happened to the driver, other than it was difficult to extract him from the car and he went to the hospital. All is kept rather quiet when these incidents occur. Post these photos to other lists if you like, it's a good thing for others that go to the track to see them. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=34549&a=244226&p=50807986&f=0 http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=34549&a=244226&p=50807989 This is from the instructor. He posted onto the honda-tech competition board: Hey Fellas, Shawn here. All is well. Believe it or not, I got a couple of stitches above my left knee, and scrapes on both shins and that's it. I've never felt so lucky before in my life. The reason for such a late response is because I'm currently up in Maine on vacation (that's why I didn't get your message Chris). Mark, I thought that was you driving by. Jeff, the driver is fine as well. I had it worse than him as far as bodily harm. He has a few bruises. We entered 3 early and hot. When Jeff tied to correct the car placement, the back end kicked out, over corrected, lifted, and we went toward the trees. I'm not sure if we hit the trees though. All I remember was seeing the trees coming fast (80+ mph), being tossed around violently which disoriented me, and then everything was pitch black. I asked Jeff is he was fine, and then searched for the door handle. I couldn't open the door, we were crammed in the tightest space. I was able to take off my helmet (which cracked in 3 places) to get some air. No roll bar/cage. Bone stock M3. I believe we hit the base of the trees (decline before the trees/semi ditch) which took off most of the energy, and then the car came over. So the car landing on the roof was the last thing. Man, the whole roof crumpled in. I saw those pics of the M3 and can't believe I'm sitting here writing this. The rescue team lifted the back of the car with the wrecker, put support under the car, and then used the jaws of life to cut us out. We were out of the car in about 5 minutes. I must say the response team at Summit did a superb job. They were well organized and ready for any situation. As far as no one knowing who was in the car, or who I was, definitely needs to be addressed. I'm taking this time off to really think over what happened, what could have happened differently, and what I'm doing. Unfortunately, it sometimes takes incidents like this to realize how valuable your life is. I hope this is something people can look at and take safety precautions sooner rather than later. To realize that this sport is deadly and that you can die. To not be the person who say's "If" or be the unlucky one and not get a second chance. You can't sacrifice safety, no matter what it costs. I you feel you're permanently involved with motor sport, no matter what level, you really should get the safety gear. Shawn _______ Integra GS-R Sedan
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#3. new M3 comments - from John Bergstrom
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:15:28 -0700 (PDT) From: John Bergstrom <john0990@yahoo.com> Subject: new M3 comments I just wanted to say that I thoroughly appreciated Josh's comments on the new M3 and his assessment of what an owner's expectations should be for a 8000 rpm, 103hp/liter sports car. I for one was hoping BMW would make performance the number 1 priority and luxury/sound deadening/wimp pandering a distant 2nd. Each of the noises he described make me lust after a new M3 even more . . . John '95 M3 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#4. Re: E46 M3 from the viewpoint of an owner... - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:32:49 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: E46 M3 from the viewpoint of an owner... Josh writes... >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:43:34 -0600 >From: Josh <eurosprt@xmission.com> >Subject: E46 M3 from the viewpoint of an owner vs weenie who won't sell his >car > >I stopped by this website and had to quickly ingest a double dose of >compazine to prevent myself from projectile vomiting. I thought that I >knew what whiner was until this weenie got started. <snip> (several direct experiences shared) >This guy building this whiners/weenie paradise website is doing nothing >more than making an ass of himself in public. Three things... 1) Chances are, this person is also a member of the E36 M3 Digest. If so, would you care to identify yourself? 2) Did you notice that he/she doesn't list a name? He/she is so "brave" to take on BMW, and lead the charge for all of the dissatisfied E46 M3 owners in the US, but fails to provide identification? That really adds to the credibility! 3) Whiners like this are why BMWNA chooses to not import their ultimate cars to the US. Just like the whiner who sued BMW because BMW was only going to sell a limited number of E28 M5s in the US, and ended up selling more than they originally targeted. -rb _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#5. Re: [E36M3] new M3 comments - from Sue Kraft
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:49:42 -0500 From: Sue Kraft <skraft1@new.rr.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] new M3 comments John Bergstrom wrote: > Each of the noises he described make me lust after a new M3 even more .. That's exactly the way I felt after reading Josh's post... How about we invite all the whiners to a huge weenie roast? :) Suzy
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#6. Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:53:39 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... All, I guess if Chevrolet can put run flat tires on the Corvette, there's no reason why BMW (or an E46 M3 or M-Roadster/Coupe owner) couldn't put them on their car, right? Regarding the spare tire... I've been a car owner since 1977. In the 24 years (yikes!) that I've been driving, I've had 2-3 occasions where I've come out to the car to find a flat tire, and I've had one occasion when a tire picked up something while I was driving and it went flat. I've driven my personal cars more than 500,000 miles during the 24 year period, and I've driven numerous rental cars as well during that period of time. My 1993 E34 525iT still has the original, never used, BRAND NEW SPARE, in the trunk. My 1995 E36 M3 still has the original, never used, BRAND NEW SPARE, in the trunk. In my experience, having a can of Flat Fixer and an air pump in the trunk would be just as useful as a spare. With a cell phone, it probably makes the Flat Fixer and air pump unnecessary. Also, in my experience, the odds of being stranded with a flat tire and no spare, no flat fixer, no air pump, and either no cell phone or a cell phone but no service area, and needing to be at a specified location at a specified time (life or death) would be about as likely as getting struck by lightning. Probably much less! So, with the quality of modern tires, and the widespread availability of modern communications, why do people continue to whine about: - a car with no spare tire? - a car with a space-saver spare? If the lack of a spare tire is really such an issue with someone, why would he/she buy the car??? That's my story, and I'm sticking with it! ;-) -rb (seriously thinking about a new M-Roadster...with NO SPARE TIRE!) >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:55:18 -0400 >From: "Paul Elliott" <pelliott@rcn.com> >Subject: ] BMW must be thrilled about this web site... > > >>apparently he's just a little brat who has never owned >a car, that knows nothing about performance cars, the car business, >economics, or even physics (he can't seem to understanderstand that a spare >tire won't fit into the trunk because of the exhaust system). << > >Wait a minute....You seem to think that an understanding of physics would >lead you to the inevitable conclusion that people , if they had to choose, >would rather have 4 exhaust tips than a spare tire. I for one, would >rather have both...But, given my druthers, there's no way I'd be content >with no spare...Have you ever had a flat? You know, they do happen in the >real world, really! It seems inexcusable that something so functional >should be left out, in the name of cosmetics. And please, dont tell me how >much extra horsepower we're getting by those extra two tips...I dont >suppose they could have given us 2 fatter tips instead, and a spare....Too >much to ask? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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#7. Re: [E36M3] M3 Totalled at Summit 6/22 - info - from Jeremy Warfield
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:56:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Warfield <cosmos95_swa@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] M3 Totalled at Summit 6/22 - info This is very humbling, especially since my run in the advanced group is coming up on the 6th of July, but, I think it is best summed up with this quote from one of the replies within that forwarded email: "Our A-Group Solo driver is racing is other two pals in their M3's. He goes in to # 3 (a left hander) too hot and slides the outer tires off the track (those are street tires, too...not enough lateral grip if you're driving at 10/10th's)." This is after all, a driver's school. It is not a competition event to prove your superiority over your two buddies in their similar cars. Furthermore, anyone running at this pace on street tires with an unprepared car, really needs to think twice before cooking through #3 at Summit Point (a pretty fast left hander that falls off camber near the exit). Jeremy- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... - from Chester Wong
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:01:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... I think we should all donate a buck to the Ron Buchalski new tire fund as you know what is about to happen within a few days.... <vbg> Chester --- Ron Buchalski <rbuchals@hotmail.com> wrote: > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:53:39 > From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... > > All, > > I guess if Chevrolet can put run flat tires on the Corvette, there's no > reason why BMW (or an E46 M3 or M-Roadster/Coupe owner) couldn't put them on > their car, right? > > Regarding the spare tire... > > I've been a car owner since 1977. In the 24 years (yikes!) that I've been > driving, I've had 2-3 occasions where I've come out to the car to find a > flat tire, and I've had one occasion when a tire picked up something while I > was driving and it went flat. > > I've driven my personal cars more than 500,000 miles during the 24 year > period, and I've driven numerous rental cars as well during that period of > time. > > My 1993 E34 525iT still has the original, never used, BRAND NEW SPARE, in > the trunk. > > My 1995 E36 M3 still has the original, never used, BRAND NEW SPARE, in the > trunk. > > In my experience, having a can of Flat Fixer and an air pump in the trunk > would be just as useful as a spare. With a cell phone, it probably makes > the Flat Fixer and air pump unnecessary. > > Also, in my experience, the odds of being stranded with a flat tire and no > spare, no flat fixer, no air pump, and either no cell phone or a cell phone > but no service area, and needing to be at a specified location at a > specified time (life or death) would be about as likely as getting struck by > lightning. Probably much less! > > So, with the quality of modern tires, and the widespread availability of > modern communications, why do people continue to whine about: > > - a car with no spare tire? > - a car with a space-saver spare? > > If the lack of a spare tire is really such an issue with someone, why would > he/she buy the car??? > > That's my story, and I'm sticking with it! ;-) > > -rb > (seriously thinking about a new M-Roadster...with NO SPARE TIRE!) ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#9. BMW must be thrilled about this web site... - from Ed Tang
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Tang <etangf1@yahoo.com> Subject: BMW must be thrilled about this web site... I think there is one major thing we have overlooked here when it comes to the E46 M3: In developing this car, feedback from current and prior ///M owners was the main catharsis of what the BMW engineers came out with. A machine dedicated to the true and loyal ///M enthusiast. As BMW Car Club members, we are unique in that we have the M Brand Manager, Tom Salkowski, doing his tours with the chapters and responding to our questions, listening to our gripes. I don't know of any other car manufacturer that does this. So when they developed this car they actually listened to us. And we must remember that "us" means the hard-core track junkie and the luxury seekers who want the performance. We might all complain about how soft the cars are getting, but BMW has to address this broad spectrum. We complained about more power: Got it. More Engine, driveline and exhaust noise but we asked for power, we got it. We complained about the RSM's: Got it. We complained about transmission mounts: Got it. We complained about distinguishing the ///M from the 3 series: Got it. We wanted more luxury appointments (at least some of us-remember they're listening to everyone): Got it. Yes the car is heavier but the engine and lighter suspension components really make up a lot. We wanted an automatic: If the SMG II comes then we'll have better than just an automatic. The list probably goes on. When you look at the brochure, it states that the ///M entusiast was the core focus of developing what they had. From my perspective, this car is special b/c I truly believe that BMW made an effort to satisfy our LONG list of demands and really succeeded. I will only assume that the web author doesn't know or understand the heritage behind the ///M moniker, that the car reflects "our" opinion on what the car should be. Since we value performance foremost, the car has race bred qualities that do not really satisfy comfort requirements. I did take the car on a test drive. It is definitely more refined and solid. It is stiffer and noisier than my E36, much to my surprise. All of those who believe the car is softer is only foolish themselves. The car is incredible. I am on the list to buy and am timing it with the end of my extended warranty. Bottom line: the E46 M3 is molded with ideas and suggestions that came from us. That's what makes ///M so special. Business wise, it may not be strategic to address a particular group making it a true niche car that may not fly. But we all have ///M's b/c our niche is particularly strong. And BMW is successful in carrying that out. The problem arises when you have someone who doesn't understand this. They don't understand that with all these gripes that we have, we still stand by our machines, otherwise you wouldn't be on this list. This car was made for a particular group. This is a group that understands certain sacrifices the get the best possible car. Ferraristas have endured what we are going through for ages. Back in the day, Ferrari was notorious for putting out an incredibly unreliable car. People complained but still bought the cars and put up with the silly gated shifters and generally, a very uncomfortable car. It was the "Passione" when you saw the design and heard the sweet symphony (as long as it wasn't in the shop). We share that passion except Rossa is replaced with an ///M. My $0.02 Ed Tang 95 Cosmos M3 > -------------------- 2 -------------------- > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:44:45 -0700 (PDT) > From: Joe Tan <mailjtan@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: BMW must be thrilled about this web > site... > > I am sure you are going to get quite a few email > from > people disagreeing with you on this. I don't know > about everyone else but If I am going to spend over > $60k for a car I expect nothing less than perfection > and if it's not perfect I expect the manufacturer do > "everything" they can to make it perfect. The excuse > of "It's a sports car, therefore..." just does not > fly > in this competitive market segment anymore. Have you > driven a AMG Mercedes lately? > > Joe. > '98 M3/4 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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#10. Re: [E36M3] AMG's w/out clutches - from Luis Veras
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:08:19 -0400 From: "Luis Veras" <veras@tricom.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] AMG's w/out clutches > I read an interesting article in European Car on the plane, they mentioned > that by M-B's reckoning, only 5% of their AMG customer base want manual > trannies. (let's not get into how their customer base might EXPAND if they Is this for US spec cars only? I ask because I've been to Europe quite a few times in the last couple of years, and in Europe I've actually been in more MBz with manual trannies, than automatic (rented cars, friends' cars, taxis and test drives at dealers). This also includes 3 AMGs, of which 2 had manual trannies, and only one automatic (an E55). But then again, in Europe there is a much higher % of manual trannies (for all car makes) than in this side of the world. I guess we are lazier than they are. I'd be surprised to learn that the 5% rule for AMG cars also applies to european customers.