-------------------- 1 --------------------
#1. RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from Seth Thomas
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:34:25 -0400 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY This has been mentioned before and I don't think it is right to narrow it down to one aftermarket company making sway bars that will not tear the mounts. Unless you are sponsored by them, Chester ;). Anyway back to my point. The reason the tabs fail on our cars is that we add aftermarket sway bars with springs that are not strong enough or matched to the sway bars. When we do this we transfer a lot of the suspension work from the springs to the sway bars. This adds a lot of stress to those mounts and they start cracking. Having Eibachs, RDs, UUC or whoever's sway bars has nothing to do with the mounts cracking. The only thing that it has to do with is you creating stress on these mounts by not using proper spring rates for the bars. Just a quick example of my car. It has RD sway bars set at full stiff and has had this setup for quite a while. My car has been tracked a lot and has a fully modified suspension. I run R-compound tires at all track events I go to. It has 58,000 miles on it and my tabs are perfect. No flex, cracks or any signs of abuse. My sprig rates are 450# fronts and 600# rears. So you guys can take this how you want to but the reason the tabs fail is not the design of the bars. Mine would have failed already if that were so. It is because the cars are undersprung for the thicker bars. Seth Thomas www.m3ltw.com -----Original Message----- From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:32 AM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:26:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY I think Jim meant to ask about rear sway bar tab failure. I ran a survey a few months ago on bimmer.org. Basically, no one with Eibach sways had rear sway bar tab failure. I just crawled under the car on Saturday night to replace exhaust gaskets, nuts and bolts, exhaust hangers, and to clean and relub my rear sway bar bushings. I was also going to install the new sway bar link that Eibach finally sent me (the one with the correctly inserted oversized sleeve). My rear sways were set to full stiff for quite a while on NYC pothole ridden streets and some track use and my rear sway bar tabs were perfectly fine. '99 M3 w/ 31k miles. Chester --- nabli@attglobal.net wrote: > Speaking of short circuiting the effect of rubber bushing, I would like to > take > a survey. > > If you have after market sway bars tell us if you have had any sway bar link > failure. I think everyone can benefit from this survey. > > Note, the UUC and RD bars use solid heim joints for the rear bar. The Eibach > uses a modified version of the factory link which retains the rubber > bushings. > > I have Eibach bars and no sway bar tab issues. I have attended multiple > track > events and my rear bars are set to full stiff. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. *************************************************************
-------------------- 2 --------------------
#2. RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from Steven Tom
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:55:09 -0700 From: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY I agree Seth. The sway bar does less work with stiffer springs. I guess to expand on the survey it would be better to ask if they have also added stiffer shocks and springs and in what time frame relative to each. I.E springs and shocks added 2 months before sways or vice versa. I am still interested in the survey but turn the survey into tearing sway bar tabs relative to having or not having stiffer springs and shocks. The vendor would also be interesting to note. steve - just recently added H&R c/o w/ GC trailing arm bushings and soon to have Eibach sways. I still can't wait till the new Kumho Ecsta V700 comes out. Anyone have any dates? At 11:33 AM 8/6/01 -0500, Seth Thomas wrote: >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:34:25 -0400 >From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> >Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY > >This has been mentioned before and I don't think it is right to narrow it >down to one aftermarket company making sway bars that will not tear the >mounts. Unless you are sponsored by them, Chester ;). Anyway back to my >point. The reason the tabs fail on our cars is that we add aftermarket sway >bars with springs that are not strong enough or matched to the sway bars. >When we do this we transfer a lot of the suspension work from the springs to >the sway bars. This adds a lot of stress to those mounts and they start >cracking. Having Eibachs, RDs, UUC or whoever's sway bars has nothing to do >with the mounts cracking. The only thing that it has to do with is you >creating stress on these mounts by not using proper spring rates for the >bars. Just a quick example of my car. It has RD sway bars set at full >stiff and has had this setup for quite a while. My car has been tracked a >lot and has a fully modified suspension. I run R-compound tires at all >track events I go to. It has 58,000 miles on it and my tabs are perfect. >No flex, cracks or any signs of abuse. My sprig rates are 450# fronts and >600# rears. > >So you guys can take this how you want to but the reason the tabs fail is >not the design of the bars. Mine would have failed already if that were so. >It is because the cars are undersprung for the thicker bars. > >Seth Thomas >www.m3ltw.com
-------------------- 3 --------------------
#3. Re: RSM, Exhaust, or Diff? - from Neil Maller
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 12:09:50 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: RSM, Exhaust, or Diff? on 8/6/01 11:31 AM, "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> wrote: > It's a rattly, knocking noise (med/low tone) and as I'm driving, it seem to > be coming from the rear or center of the car... a bit hard to isolate, but > yesterday's passanger believed the sound was more from the center and she > claimed she could feel it (I don't feel anything, but I definitely hear it). > It generally seems to only occur over rough areas of road, more severe > bumps or minor road defects that are close together. Softer bumps and dips > don't seem to generate the noise. It happens whether I'm in gear or not. These noises are notoriously hard to pinpoint. Things to look for, some of which you already mentioned, in roughly descending order of probability: 1) RSMs. Only way to tell for sure is to have someone ride in the trunk (BTDT). Replace with new E46 M3 mounts (street) or GC (street/track). 2) Rear exhaust rubber hangers. You can't easily see them to tell if they're cracked, but clues are if your tailpipes are hanging low, or the tailpipe moves too easily, or if you see any melting on the rear valence. I just had to replace mine. More likely to make noise if you have an aftermarket swaybar, since these usually don't have as complex a bend as stock, so are more likely to hit the muffler. 3) Broken or loose swaybar mounts/brackets. 4) Worn or loose rear swaybar links, especially if aftermarket. 5) Loose or broken diff mounting bolts. 6) Worn or loose FRONT swaybar link. Believe it or not these don't always sound as if the noise comes from the front. I'm sure there are other possibilities too. Neil 96 M3
-------------------- 4 --------------------
#4. Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from Vince Leo
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:15:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Vince Leo <m332is@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY Hi Jim, As for the survey, I have the UUC bars which I ran at full stiff - F&R until a couple weeks ago when I installed a Ground Control CO suspension (I have loosened the bars to get used to the new suspension). I had around 20 track days on my UUC bars at stiff/stiff last year and maybe 12 days so far this year (with at least another 14 to go this year)with no sign of cracking or fatigue. I get a fair amount of track time and i think I push my car when I am out there so I think my car is a decent test specimine. I did weld in the TMS rear support tabs when we did the CO and the GC front struts are very beefy, so from this point forward (actually the last event was on the new suspension) my car may not be a valid test subject. Vince 99 M3 89 M3 ///////////////////////// Speaking of short circuiting the effect of rubber bushing, I would like to take a survey. If you have after market sway bars tell us if you have had any sway bar link failure. I think everyone can benefit from this survey. Note, the UUC and RD bars use solid heim joints for the rear bar. The Eibach uses a modified version of the factory link which retains the rubber bushings. I have Eibach bars and no sway bar tab issues. I have attended multiple track events and my rear bars are set to full stiff. Cheers, Jim E. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
-------------------- 5 --------------------
#5. RE: [E36M3] Re: Sway bar link removal?? HELP!!! - from Tom Tice
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:45:07 -0400 From: "Tom Tice" <tetice@triad.rr.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Sway bar link removal?? HELP!!! Thanks to Neil for the correction. I made the mistake of assuming another poster was correct with the 14mm. I have a set of 13,14,15 & 16mm cone wrenches for bikes so it didn't stick out in my mind which one it was. Sorry for any confusion. Tom Tice '98 M3/4 '99 540/6 > -----Original Message----- > From: Neil Maller [mailto:neil.maller@gte.net] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 10:42 AM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] Re: Sway bar link removal?? HELP!!! > > > Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:33:23 -0500 > From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> > Subject: Re: Sway bar link removal?? HELP!!! > > on 8/5/01 6:41 PM, Michael Turgeon <turgeon1@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I am trying to replace my struts on the M3 '95. When > > I tried to remove the sway bar links it seems that the > > nut and bolt are spinning, yet I cannot see anything > > on the back side to hold the bolt in position. > > From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> > > There's a 14mm head on that bolt. You have to use a > > reasonably skinny wrench between the bar and link. > > Bzzzzzt! Wrong! > > > on 8/5/01 11:41 PM, "Tom Tice" <tetice@triad.rr.com> wrote: > > Its actually 14mm flats on the link just inside of the sway bar. > > Bzzzzt! Still wrong! > > > on 8/5/01 11:41 PM, Chris wrote: > > I think it is 15mm. > > Bzzzzt! Wrong but getting warmer! > > > From: "Joe Dyer" <joedyer@home.com> > > 16 mm - open end - Thin > > Dingdingdingding! We have a winnah! > > > Yes, the wrench needs to be thin. A Craftsman Pro series wrench > works fine, > regular Crapsman deosn't. I imagine those bike wrenches work too, but > they're not useful for much else on a car. > > And yes it does need to be 16mm. > > Neil > 96 M3 > > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > ************************************************************* > >
-------------------- 6 --------------------
#6. RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from Chester Wong
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:16:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY --- Seth Thomas <porsche993@mindspring.com> wrote: > This has been mentioned before and I don't think it is right to narrow it > down to one aftermarket company making sway bars that will not tear the > mounts. Unless you are sponsored by them, Chester ;). Anyway back to my > point. The reason the tabs fail on our cars is that we add aftermarket sway > bars with springs that are not strong enough or matched to the sway bars. > When we do this we transfer a lot of the suspension work from the springs to > the sway bars. This adds a lot of stress to those mounts and they start > cracking. Having Eibachs, RDs, UUC or whoever's sway bars has nothing to do > with the mounts cracking. The only thing that it has to do with is you > creating stress on these mounts by not using proper spring rates for the > bars. Just a quick example of my car. It has RD sway bars set at full > stiff and has had this setup for quite a while. My car has been tracked a > lot and has a fully modified suspension. I run R-compound tires at all > track events I go to. It has 58,000 miles on it and my tabs are perfect. > No flex, cracks or any signs of abuse. My sprig rates are 450# fronts and > 600# rears. > > So you guys can take this how you want to but the reason the tabs fail is > not the design of the bars. Mine would have failed already if that were so. > It is because the cars are undersprung for the thicker bars. While you have valid points, I don't entirely agree with you (and no, I'm not sponsored by anyone). I don't think you can easily make an assertion that the design of the bars does not have anything to do with rear sway bar mount tab failure. Yes, we have spoken about this before and time and time again, you fail to see my point. I'm not saying that I don't agree with you that with heavier bars the stock springs aren't sufficiently strong. But what I do know is that I have seen first hand the way the UUC bars fit and the way the Eibach bars fit. Have you? I'm not being condescending, I really want to know. When I installed UUC bars a while back, everything fit fine until I had to install the adjustable links. There was no way I could manipulate them to get them to not be at the limit of angular displacement of the heim joint. Simple as that. If I placed the heim join ball on one side or the other side of the rear sway bar, I had a concern of rubbing...either the heim joint on the rear sway bar itself or the nut that holds the heim joint to the bar. In order to alleviate my concerns, I relieved some material from the heim joint. Anyway, since there is an angle, you cannot deny that when an upward force is transmitted to the bar that there is some lateral force transferred to the bar. That's simple physics (where the lateral force would be equal to sin(angle link makes with respect to the vertical) * total force transferred). You cannot also deny the fact that the bend in the rear sway bar is very close to the tab. So close that with just the rear sway bar installed with no links, you cannot slide the bar side to side very much, if at all. It was my theory that this horizontal force aided in accelerated wear or tearing of the rear sway bar mount tab. I would venture to guess that the rear sway bar mount tabs were designed to handle up and downward forces. Side to side? No. So while relubbing my rear swaybars Saturday evening, installed the rear links into the control arms (or whatever it is that they are bolted to) and installed the rear sway bars. Guess what? The links butted up right against the sway bar. Can't get better than that. Perhaps I obtained a bad set of bars from UUC...seems to be a trend where I either always get a bad set from them or maybe I got a bad car from BMW! But it also depends on who you talk to at UUC that certain variances are within spec! Hmmm...maybe I should have all my friends with Eibach bars dismount theirs and we'll line them up....I'm not expecting much variance... I think you also have to consider use of the car as well. You live in Georgia...nice smooth roads. You have a dedicated track car where you can put god awfully high spring rate springs in your track only car. We (people who live in areas with nasty roads and don't have a dedicated track car) have come to accept a certain level of compromise with our rides. You have also mentioned that you do not recommend using camber plates with spherical bushings up front because it's too harsh for a street setup while many others haven't had that problem. Well, you are probably the one with much heavier spring rates, right? For a race car, minimal suspension movement is acceptable if not ideal (smooth track, no bumps, etc). In fact, when I was at my last track event, there was a guy with a red racing M3 bought from a team in Belgium. I was talking to the guys and so how little clearance there was between tires and bodywork. I mentioned it and the guy chuckled and pushed down on the front fender....absolutely no movement. Do I want that on my car? Hell no! Anyway, my main point is that certain have accepted the compromise between track use and street use between our cars. If a certain product is not designed as well as other products and can potentially lead to premature failure, I, for one, would definitely like to know about it. UUC, it seems, wanted to copy the dimensions of the Eibach bars...that's why they advertized 26mm/24mm front/rear. So, IMO, why would anyone even consider UUC bars over Eibach ones when: - UUC bars are more expensive - The zinc coating is crap - The UUC bars don't fit as well - The rifled drilled out bushings chew through the crappy zinc coating..my car started squeaking like a wooden boat in two weeks ???? Doesn't make sense to me. Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
-------------------- 7 --------------------
#7. Toyo RA-1 vendor? - from Peter Fanning
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 11:29:15 -0700 From: Peter Fanning <p.fanning@verizon.net> Subject: Toyo RA-1 vendor? I need to find a set of track tires very soon. My Kumho's corded last event and there are no more available from the Tire Rack. I've heard good things about the Toyo's so I'd like to give 'em a try. Where's the best place to order them? TIA, Peter Fanning '98 M3/4
-------------------- 8 --------------------
#8. RE: [E36M3] Toyo RA-1 vendor? - from Jim Bassett
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:35:06 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jbassett@geysernetworks.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Toyo RA-1 vendor? > I need to find a set of track tires very soon. My Kumho's > corded last > event and there are no more available from the Tire Rack. > I've heard good > things about the Toyo's so I'd like to give 'em a try. > Where's the best > place to order them? Best way is to go to the Toyo web site and look for a local dealer. Toyos aren't available through the "usual" online/mail order places (Tire Rack, Dicount Tire, etc.) If you're in the SF Bay Area, here are a couple of places: AIM Tire at Sears Point Raceway Conversion Techniques in Oakland Roger Kraus Racing in Castro Valley (I've purchased Toyo's from all 3.) Cheers, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4
-------------------- 9 --------------------
#9. the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:42:30 -0400 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading south Well folks, I knew this was bound to happen sooner or later. And last afternoon it did. That is to say that I lightened my '95 M3 by depositing the splash shield on the road at triple digit speeds. I was making sure that I finally cured my front end rattle. The rattle is gone, the C-clamps holding front Eibach to front subframe worked themselves loose. But now I need to come up with a replacement for the front splash shield. I'm currently looking at three options (pretty much in the order of preference): 1. Buy a JTD aluminum splash shield replacement. The only reason I haven't placed the order yet is that a). I've read some less than enthusiastic reviews of this product on the digests b). it requires removal of the OEM 'pork chops' which may leave front fender liners without firm attachment points in the front 2. Buy another OEM splash shield and experiment with modifying mounting points to keep the shield in place at speed. 3. Buy another OEM splash shield and install it as is - waste of money? What do you all think about any of the above three options? I'm particularly interested in JTD aluminum splash shield replacement reviews! TIA, alex f
-------------------- 10 --------------------
#10. Re: [E36M3] Re: RSM, Exhaust, or Diff? - from Chester Wong
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:42:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: RSM, Exhaust, or Diff? > 1) RSMs. Only way to tell for sure is to have someone ride in the trunk > (BTDT). Replace with new E46 M3 mounts (street) or GC (street/track). I agree. I have a E46M3 rear shock mount kit (RSMs, gaskets, new nuts, and the Z3 reinforcement plates) for $60 shipped to you door. > 2) Rear exhaust rubber hangers. You can't easily see them to tell if they're > cracked, but clues are if your tailpipes are hanging low, or the tailpipe > moves too easily, or if you see any melting on the rear valence. I just had > to replace mine. More likely to make noise if you have an aftermarket > swaybar, since these usually don't have as complex a bend as stock, so are > more likely to hit the muffler. I just replaced my exhaust hangers. The driver side one was completely toast. The rubber up on top had completely separated from the metal bracket. The exhaust looks much better now (better centered and doesn't hang so low). Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/