-------------------- 1 --------------------
#1. Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from nabli@attglobal.net
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:44:42 -0400 From: nabli@attglobal.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY The fact that this has been discussed before of course does not mean that anyone came up with any definitive answer. At least not unless someone actually did test the different bars etc.... This survey is not meant to bash any one particular after market bar. It is merely a survey which can be used inductively rather than deductively. It should be no surprise to anyone on this list that there are generally two ways to decrease body roll - 1. stiffer springs and/or 2. stiffer anti sway bars. Logically, a stiffer bar would reduce the amount of work an anti roll bar would have to do to keep the car from swaying excessively. However, the question we are trying to answer is whether or not there are any after market sway bars out there that can be used as an upgrade by themselves without any other modifications. Seth, you are suggesting that the only way to prevent your mounts from cracking is by installing stiffer springs. Since I have been on this list (over two years now) I have not heard of anyone breaking their rear tabs when they used Eibach bars and a stock suspension. That does NOT mean it has not happened. Hence this survey. So what's the point of this survey? If the survey reveals that the only cars which have cracked or broken sway bar links also had a combination of stock suspension and after market anti sway bars with solid heim joints then what would be the conclusion? What if no cars with stock suspension and after market bars with modified factory rear links had any failure? What would be the conclusion then? Curious minds want to know. :-) BTW, Wayne Miller has the euro (stiffer springs) on his car and solid heim joint and would you believe that he cracked/broke his sway bar links? So how stiff should the after market springs be? As a point of reference Wayne is really quick on the track and is probably as aggressive as I am. He was previously running H&Rs with RD bars before he changed over to Euro springs and UUC bars. Cheers, Jim E. Seth Thomas wrote: > This has been mentioned before and I don't think it is right to narrow it > down to one aftermarket company making sway bars that will not tear the > mounts. Unless you are sponsored by them, Chester ;). Anyway back to my > point. The reason the tabs fail on our cars is that we add aftermarket sway > bars with springs that are not strong enough or matched to the sway bars. > When we do this we transfer a lot of the suspension work from the springs to > the sway bars. This adds a lot of stress to those mounts and they start > cracking. Having Eibachs, RDs, UUC or whoever's sway bars has nothing to do > with the mounts cracking. The only thing that it has to do with is you > creating stress on these mounts by not using proper spring rates for the > bars. Just a quick example of my car. It has RD sway bars set at full > stiff and has had this setup for quite a while. My car has been tracked a > lot and has a fully modified suspension. I run R-compound tires at all > track events I go to. It has 58,000 miles on it and my tabs are perfect. > No flex, cracks or any signs of abuse. My sprig rates are 450# fronts and > 600# rears. > > So you guys can take this how you want to but the reason the tabs fail is > not the design of the bars. Mine would have failed already if that were so. > It is because the cars are undersprung for the thicker bars. > > Seth Thomas > www.m3ltw.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:32 AM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY > > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:26:46 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY > > I think Jim meant to ask about rear sway bar tab failure. I ran a survey a > few > months ago on bimmer.org. Basically, no one with Eibach sways had rear sway > bar tab failure. > > I just crawled under the car on Saturday night to replace exhaust gaskets, > nuts > and bolts, exhaust hangers, and to clean and relub my rear sway bar > bushings. > I was also going to install the new sway bar link that Eibach finally sent > me > (the one with the correctly inserted oversized sleeve). > > My rear sways were set to full stiff for quite a while on NYC pothole ridden > streets and some track use and my rear sway bar tabs were perfectly fine. > '99 > M3 w/ 31k miles. > > Chester > > --- nabli@attglobal.net wrote: > > Speaking of short circuiting the effect of rubber bushing, I would like to > > take > > a survey. > > > > If you have after market sway bars tell us if you have had any sway bar > link > > failure. I think everyone can benefit from this survey. > > > > Note, the UUC and RD bars use solid heim joints for the rear bar. The > Eibach > > uses a modified version of the factory link which retains the rubber > > bushings. > > > > I have Eibach bars and no sway bar tab issues. I have attended multiple > > track > > events and my rear bars are set to full stiff. > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > ************************************************************* > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > *************************************************************
-------------------- 2 --------------------
#2. Re: [E36M3] RE: front splash shield - from nabli@attglobal.net
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:47:44 -0400 From: nabli@attglobal.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: front splash shield As a point of reference I have the JTD panel with the pork chops on the car. You sort of have to take then apart before you can use them. Not that they provide any structural benefits - probably some aerodynamic effect though. Cheers, Jim E. Dan Hermann wrote: > Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 14:25:39 -0500 > From: "Dan Hermann" <dah328@hotmail.com> > Subject: RE: front splash shield > > >>1. Buy a JTD aluminum splash shield replacement. The only reason I haven't > >>placed the order yet is that a). I've read some less than enthusiastic > >>reviews of this product on the digests b). it requires removal of the OEM > >>'pork chops' which may leave front fender liners without firm attachment > >>points in the front<< > > it does require removal of the pork chops, but the fender liner attachment > points look fine to me. i've run mine in that configuration for about nine > months, several track days, and many runs to triple-digit speeds (all on > private, closed circuits with professional drivers, of course) and had no > problems. > > i think the concerns i've heard is that the JTD underpanel does not provide > as much "cover" as the OEM panel + pork chops, especially in the area where > the pork chops would go. if you look at a picture of the JTD panel, you can > see the thin aluminum strips in place of where the pork chops would be. > that's not a real concern for me, though, as a number of people run without > a panel at all with no apparent adverse effects. > > i can say, in an obvious sort of way, that the JTD panel is considerably > stronger than the OEM piece. it would take some pretty severe damage (and > to more than just the underpanel) before the JTD panel let go. > > dan > 96 M3 (JTD-equipped) > 88 325is (none of this underpanel nonsense) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > *************************************************************
-------------------- 3 --------------------
#3. RE: [E36M3] the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading - from Mel Silva
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:00:45 -0500 From: "Mel Silva" <mel.silva@pdq.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading Neil Maller did a very nice write up of the under-panel repair and posted it to this group. If you can't find a copy in your archives, email Neil and ask him very nicely. Maybe he'll reply. If he shuns you, I have a copy that I SAVED since I knew I would use it at some point. Mel > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Kannookadan [mailto:joe.kannookadan@sourcelight.com] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 3:32 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] the incredible sucking sound of your front splash > shield heading > > > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:39:48 -0500 > From: "Joe Kannookadan" <joe.kannookadan@sourcelight.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] the incredible sucking sound of your front > splash shield heading > > I'd go with #2. This happened to me quite a while ago (almost a year > maybe)... pretty scary sound as the shield is dragged along the > ground under > car at about 100 mph (and no, there wasn't any traffic). Anyway, I pulled > off onto the ramp and into a parking lot... somehow the shield managed to > just stay under the car the whole way... lucky me. I found that basically > all the mounting points on the shield had ripped. It's ridiculous how > flimsy it is near the screw holes (there's maybe about an 1/8" of material > there). So I went to Home Depot, bought some "Mending Plates" (strips of > metal with holes in them) for a couple bucks, bent them into "L"'s making > sure the top hole would line up with the mounting hole on the car, screwed > them to the shield, and put the whole thing back on the car. I > haven't had > trouble since. I think there's a site detailing something > similar but don't > know what it is off hand. > > --- > joe > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <alex.fadeev@verizon.com> > To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 1:51 PM > Subject: [E36M3] the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield > heading > > > > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:42:30 -0400 > > From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com > > Subject: the incredible sucking sound of your front splash > shield heading > > south > > > > Well folks, I knew this was bound to happen sooner or later. And last > > afternoon it did. That is to say that I lightened my '95 M3 by > depositing > > the splash shield on the road at triple digit speeds. > > I was making sure that I finally cured my front end rattle. The > rattle is > > gone, the C-clamps holding front Eibach to front subframe worked > themselves > > loose. But now I need to come up with a replacement for the front splash > > shield. I'm currently looking at three options (pretty much in the order > of > > preference): > > 1. Buy a JTD aluminum splash shield replacement. The only > reason I haven't > > placed the order yet is that a). I've read some less than enthusiastic > > reviews of this product on the digests b). it requires removal > of the OEM > > 'pork chops' which may leave front fender liners without firm attachment > > points in the front > > 2. Buy another OEM splash shield and experiment with modifying mounting > > points to keep the shield in place at speed. > > 3. Buy another OEM splash shield and install it as is - waste of money? > > > > What do you all think about any of the above three options? > > I'm particularly interested in JTD aluminum splash shield replacement > > reviews! > > TIA, > > alex f > > > > > > ************************************************************* > > List Commands > > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > > > To issue a command/request to the server: > > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > > ************************************************************* > > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > ************************************************************* > >
-------------------- 4 --------------------
#4. Re: Incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading - from Neil Maller
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:05:42 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading south on 8/6/01 2:01 PM, alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: > Well folks, I knew this was bound to happen sooner or later. And last > afternoon it did. That is to say that I lightened my '95 M3 by depositing > the splash shield on the road at triple digit speeds. Alex, welcome to the not very exclusive club! You may have missed it - not thinking at the time that you needed it! - but a few weeks ago I posted that I had a definitive solution to this problem. For about $60 in tools and materials (plus a new splash shield/shroud) you can attach the factory parts so that they won't blow off. > I'm currently looking at three options (pretty much in the order preference > 1. Buy a JTD aluminum splash shield replacement. The only reason I haven't > placed the order yet is that a). I've read some less than enthusiastic > reviews of this product on the digests b). it requires removal of the OEM > 'pork chops' which may leave front fender liners without firm attachment > points in the front. I was one of the charter buyers of the JTD shield, but I gave up using it a long time ago. It's simple and well enough made but: - Can't use the porkchops without problematic modifications - Poor fit on my car - Doesn't have the aero profile of the original - Sometimes clangs against the radiator > 2. Buy another OEM splash shield and experiment with modifying mounting > points to keep the shield in place at speed. See my instructions, which I'm sending you off-digest. > 3. Buy another OEM splash shield and install it as is - waste of money? You got it... Neil 96 M3
-------------------- 5 --------------------
#5. Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from Neil Maller
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:21:48 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY on 8/6/01 3:51 PM, "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> wrote: > What I am really trying to get across to the group is that a lot of the > failures that we have heard about is from people not using a high enough > spring rate with the bars. Seth, I certainly appreciate your point, but let's no forget that: - Spring rates as high as you use would be unacceptable for most people other than on a dedicated track car. Weak mounts are therefore a likely issue for most people who use aftermarket swaybars, simply because theirs are typically street or mixed use cars. - The hard urethane bushings that typically come with aftermarket bars are probably a contributing factor also. - BMW has tacitly admitted that the rear tab design was never strong enough, by reinforcing them starting with the 98 model year. Unfortunately you'd have to change the entire subframe to benefit from the new design, and it may not be all that much stronger anyway. I'd recommend that anyone using aftermarket swaybars, with whatever springs, at the very least make the swaybar mounts a regular inspection item. Neil 96 M3
-------------------- 6 --------------------
#6. Re: [E36M3] ink on leather seats - from Skip Bogard
Top
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:27:35 -0400 From: Skip Bogard <skip.bogard@alumni.duke.edu> Subject: Re: [E36M3] ink on leather seats Time is of the essence...you've got no more than 3-5 days to get the ink up according to the StainSafe (formerly Leather Master...AKA Duane Collie's recommended product) web site before life gets more difficult for you. I'd keep it out of the sun/heat to keep the stain from setting more. White sheet over it at a minimum. This is the web site for two ink removal products: http://www.stainsafe.com/ssafe/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=403 Perhaps the "Ink Lifter" or "Ink Killer" products...call and ask them first. Lifter is more gentle than Killer. If you go the Killer route, then you'll probably also need to re-dye, and for that you want a "Leather Master Sunsafe Kit"...to get the dye right you have to send them a swatch of leather (obtain from under rear seat). I believe that Duane Collie once said the gray leather in his former '95 M3 was buffaloe hide leather and was "aniline" dyed which means that the dye goes through the leather (and not just painted on top) which means it is a good product but needs gentle treatment. You can confirm/deny that by taking out the rear seat and looking at the underside pieces folded over & stapled. There is also semi-aniline. If it were my car, I'd try the $12 Ink Lifter within 3 days (pay for FedEx overnight shipping) and possible spring for the $20 for the Ink Killer as a backup. Worst case, the Ink Killer lifts some dye...then you can order at anytime the Leather Master Sunsafe Kit (dye kit) for about $70. The foam cleaner looks like a great all around cleaner to have to say remove BMW technician's grease off your seats. I tried some of the "Light Duty" cleaner that comes in my Sunsafe kit, and it just marginally removes mild greasy soilings. The foam sounds like "the ticket". Their Leather Degreaser sounds too powerful (requires ventilation...no thanks!) Good luck. - Skip Joseph Bachman III wrote: > > Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:41:20 +0000 > From: "Joseph Bachman III" <josephbachman@hotmail.com> > Subject: ink on leather seats > > Hey all - > > A friend of mine had a pen in his pocket with no cap on, and as he > squirmed around on the light gray leather in my '99, drew all over the > place. I used warm soapy water immediately, but there are still faint traces > of black pen on the one bolster. Does anyone have any suggestions of how to > clean this up? It absolutely kills me that my nearly garage queen car has > pen ink on one of the seats... > > Best Regards, > Jay Bachman > 99 M3 coupe
-------------------- 7 --------------------
#7. the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading - from Dorffer, Rich
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:03:07 -0400 From: "Dorffer, Rich" <RDORFFER@CleIndians.com> Subject: the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading I pick door #2 Alex ;-) I spent some time this weekend modifying my new underpanel to hopefully last a little longer than the OE one (seven years which is all very relative depending on your driving style). To bring you up to speed, I spent a day at Nelson Ledges in July and found my way off the track in turn one where a little ditch allowed my car to bump the under panel and the right pork chop against the ground while mowing some of the grass in the process (I noticed it flying into the passenger compartment and thought this must be what they mean about mowing at the track). Anyway, after the run, I looked under my car to survey the damage and noted the aforementioned items and I was able to finish removing the underpanel before it tore off completely taking with it the pork chops and the fender liners. Anyway, I beefed up the mounting areas of the new underpanel with some aluminum and pop rivets. I bent the aluminum over to form a U shaped piece of metal over the stock attachment point and used pop rivets to attach them as follows: /----------- <-------This being the metal piece I attached via pop rivets | -----------| \----------- | <-------This being the stock under panel attachment point (four locations) | | | Also, I still used the stock fasteners (machine screws and Tinnerman nuts) and added a washer to each screw. I took pictures of what I did and will post them to the Web if anyone is interested (a picture is worth a thousand words). I also read Neil Maller's instructions on using nutserts to attach the bumper cover to the underpanel where the underpanel tucks up above the bumper cover. Neil feels this is the primary source of problems on the stock underpanel in the M3 coupe (particularly at high speeds). I did not do this since I am not certain this is the weakest point on the underpanel (although it is probably the second weakest point in my opinion). With Neil's extensive experience, he will likely end up proving me wrong if I do not go back and do this on my own. I think Neil's approach is particularly beneficial in high speed situations. I feel what I did is more suitable for those low speed impacts with animals, cones, small ditches, curbs, etc. (which Neil also recommends). Do them both. If your underpanel still comes off, than you obviously have much bigger problems (i.e., damage to your beloved M3). Best regards, Rich 95 M3 - new underpanel and new fog lights (finally) after a misfortunate incident with a bridge under construction last year. -------------------- 9 -------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:42:30 -0400 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading south Well folks, I knew this was bound to happen sooner or later. And last afternoon it did. That is to say that I lightened my '95 M3 by depositing the splash shield on the road at triple digit speeds. I was making sure that I finally cured my front end rattle. The rattle is gone, the C-clamps holding front Eibach to front subframe worked themselves loose. But now I need to come up with a replacement for the front splash shield. I'm currently looking at three options (pretty much in the order of preference): 1. Buy a JTD aluminum splash shield replacement. The only reason I haven't placed the order yet is that a). I've read some less than enthusiastic reviews of this product on the digests b). it requires removal of the OEM 'pork chops' which may leave front fender liners without firm attachment points in the front 2. Buy another OEM splash shield and experiment with modifying mounting points to keep the shield in place at speed. 3. Buy another OEM splash shield and install it as is - waste of money? What do you all think about any of the above three options? I'm particularly interested in JTD aluminum splash shield replacement reviews! TIA, alex f
-------------------- 8 --------------------
#8. schrick cams - from Todd Ogi
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:57:24 -0700 From: Todd Ogi <TOgi@etimecapital.com> Subject: schrick cams I have a 95M3 and the TMS EuroHFM kit and was wondering if anyone had a similar setup and had put in the schrick cams. For that matter, has anyone put in the schrick cams and passed the CA sniff test? I'm really worried that if I get this setup, that my 3.0L won't pass smog anymore. Has anyone experienced cams yet and how did they feel (more power in the upper rpms, right?) I hear this is the last thing you can do to get the most HP out of a naturally aspirated 3.0L. Can anyone offer any information about this? Any information about the cams would be appreciated. Thanks. ogibros@aol.com
-------------------- 9 --------------------
#9. RE: the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading - from bs
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:06:10 -0400 From: "bs" <m3bs@home.com> Subject: RE: the incredible sucking sound of your front splash shield heading I just left mine off completely. I don't know what effect it has on oil temps, since BMW elected not to keep us advised of such details, but I just got back from a lapping day at Road Atlanta with no indication of a problem. No high water temps, no noticeable effect on handling.
-------------------- 10 --------------------
#10. Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY - from Michael Lawrence
Top
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:59:52 -0700 From: "Michael Lawrence" <95m3ltw@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Rear sway bar reinforcing mounts - SURVEY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Maller" <neil.maller@gte.net> > - Spring rates as high as you use would be unacceptable for most people > other than on a dedicated track car. The rates Seth quoted are on Coil Overs, which does not translate directly to stock type coil springs. His car was not as stiff as say my LTW with H&R 29910 and Bilstein sports, which I think alot of people drive daily!!!! A track M3 needs 1000lbs or higher spring rates on coil overs. Or atleast that is what the class winners are using.