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#1. Re: [E36M3] Valve springs/retainers on '95s - from Skip Bogard
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Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 17:01:17 -0500 From: Skip Bogard <Skip.Bogard@alumni.duke.edu> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Valve springs/retainers on '95s Gee Scott, you sent a post around Oct 11 that I saved and wrote a reply to. Thing is I never sent it. Now that you posted this: > Eventually (after 5 months) a bad exhaust valve manifested > itself as lousy idle and even worse power. Disassembling > the head revealed that several of the valve retainers > were slipping (1-3mm), allowing the valve to "float" at high RPM. > Eventually one valve floated enough to kiss the piston and > tweak the valve. I'll give you my lengthily reply I wrote you...I apologize for the length in advance, I'm a blabber mouth. Sorry it's a month late! _________________________________ October 11, Letters Never Sent: Scott Chan wrote: > > Subject: Valve springs/retainers on '95s > > I recall hearing something about valve springs or retainers being > changed on later 1995 cars. Does anyone know details: what/why? Scott, that question sounds a lot like one I answered for one digester in Oct 2000. The change was made around October 1995. My car is a 10/94 build, so I keenly had an interest in knowing more about the Engineering Change (EC). The latest part for my '95 is BMW P/N 11 34 1 432 453 seen on microfiche plate number 11-085, the part description will be "Upper Spring Plate". The old BMW P/N was 11 34 1 703 218A, but you can't buy it anymore (just for fun, in case you want to measure & compare the Rockwell numbers of the two parts for your kid's next science fair project) Here are some excerpts from my reply in 10/00: > Anyone have the real story on the "soft" valve > spring retainers in some of the 1995 3.0L M3 motors? Well, the real story <short version> is that BMW engineers did in fact improve the retainers through nitriding. The was done around 10/95, as indicated on the BMW Parts microfiche...you can see the part number changeover. Was there a problem? I'll repost a note from the one person more knowledgeable about BMW-Bosch and BMW-Siemens ECU's than anyone to walk this earth. He made this info public once (to Suzy's list only, so don't wave it at your dealers face, thanks in advance): ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I will read ya'll a quote from a memo that I don't have ;) Complaint Detail: Exceeding the Rev Limit of engines leads to widening of the center hole in the valve spring retainers on both the Intake and Exhaust sides to the point where the keepers are pulled through the retainers. At the same time the retainers are getting bent... Analysis: Affected part # 11 34 1 703 218 [...] 2) Damage could be limited if the hardening depth of the retainers was increased Counteractions: [...] PRODUCTION CHANGE approx. 10/95 - upper valve spring retainers were carbonitrided to insure a hardening depth of at least 10 microns. [...] While nothing will protect you from a full-on bonehead move like a 5-2 downshift at 100.. it WILL help protect you from a "minor" overrev. Also note.. some of these motors have had damage WITHOUT an overrev generally the damage is in the retainers/keepers ONLY. JC. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And, then, my October 2000 note went on to answer some digesters questions, (I apologize that the first two sound more like ABC News questions than say questions coming from an engineer): >Is it a concern on a car that only sees some track use? I could write a corollary based on that secret memo that says "If you are running on the street and constantly hitting the rev limiter, you are more likely to suffer damage than someone on track not hitting the limiter." Point is, it's not a track vs. street question...it's a question of how YOU DRIVE. But, really nothing is a concern if you have enough money. All mechanical things eventually break. >Is it even a real problem or just a theory? How do you interpret the memo? Well, one way to read it is "Don't hit the rev limiter" and you won't likely have a problem. To that I could add, "Never rev over 4000 RPM (EVER!) and you'll get 400,000 miles outta one engine!" And then JC added his last comment above, it's worth re-reading. Should you be concerned about your '95 M3? Well, did you buy yours off someone without complete repair records? As a contrasting example, if you were to buy MY M3 with 130,000 miles on it, you would be buying a car with titanium retainers. Those retainers now have 90,000 miles on them! So, I have a '95 M3 and its not a problem. Wouldn't be a problem to buy a '95 M3 either, at least not mine. And, if you had been around for the whole 6 years or so of digests (anyone miss Topica?)......you would have learned that many other digesters have had head rebuilds with either titanium (3rd party) or BMW nitrided retainers. A very large number of '95 M3's have had complete new engines due to overrev (this is back in '95-'96 before we fully understood the relationships that shifter slop and driver slop had on overrevs, and the hot ticket to buy was an AC Schnitzer short shift kit from Milos Klackos. I'm probably dating myself...1/2 the people here don't know Milos Klackos probably.) So, most all those overreved '95 cars have heads with new improved retainers. Okay, so what if think you have a potential problem and you want new parts? The new BMW retainers are about $2.70 list price. If you want, you can buy titanium retainers (but not from BMW) for about $16 each. If you want to get really spiffy, I know a company that can harden titanium. Titanium would give you about 300 more RPM redline. It weighs about 1/2 that of steel. Labor + extras (head gasket, bolt set, etc) would probably be about $400-$1000. $400 would get you a vanilla install, $1000 would get you blueprinting (you have to blue print your springs before you use titanium retainers, btw.) Oh, and lets not confuse strength with hardness. Titanium is very strong, but it relatively soft (hardness of ~28 Rc). Coated titanium exists, but the coating wears off. Ion nitriding of titanium produces a hardess of > 70 Rc, but only with a penetration of 25 microns. Ion implantation produces the same hardness, but only 10 microns thick. A process called Diffusion Hardening (DH) is brand spanking new. It can harden to > 60 Rc to a depth of 250 microns. I have seen actual pictures of a differential housing for a German Super touring car (titanium) hardened with this process. It has also been used on such parts as a slip yoke with power steering pulley pump (also Titanium). This was in one of my Society of Automotive Engineering issues. If I were and paying $400+ for Ti retainers (just for the parts!), I think I'd do some extra metallurgical shopping to get the best out there today. Hell, I have a pocket knife that has Titanium-Aluminum Nitriding, and it is harder than hammered hell! Okay, so it's not really a pocket knife, it's a 4" Walter "Black" Brend folder. That might be an auto-folder, but I can't tell :) Anyone know what this button is for? OUCH! Darn...Bobbited! Crap... .....back in a sec... Note that in all that "micron depth" discussion, the BMW memorandum I gave you above mentions > 10 microns (for the new part)...in case during all my blabbering you forgot I did give you this number. Maybe you shouldn't worry. If you bought a '95 M3 used and it's now on its 3rd owner, you may not even know it's pedigree, and unknowingly have nothing to worry about. Then again, it could be in for an $8000 repair. The biggest thing to fear though are your own shifting habits. More M3 engines have been destroyed by bad shifts than any BMW part failure (including the water pump). Want a fun science project for your daughter? Order these: - E46 M3 retainer - E36 M3 retainer Find a hardness gauge and go at it! Answer these questions on the big piece of science board: 1) What are the Rockwell numbers? 2) What does this mean? Cost of science project, probably less than $10 ! (Unless the E46 M3 uses Ti retainers...doubt it...cost accountants probably said no) Then, Science Fair blue ribbon time! Test that old retainer too if you haven't thrown them out yet. Hell, remove your whole head and display it at the science fair, it's for you daughter okay? You want her to win? The judges will be very impressed that you have to buy a head gasket & bolts after the fair! And all the competing fathers will feel like they just didn't go out of their way enough for their kid! new topic! _________________________________________ Followup Oil Analysis after Radiator Fail or Is there Water in my Oil? _________________________________________ I had my M3 overheat significantly when the radiator failed at 105k miles. The h2o needle pegged in what seemed like 1.5 seconds after the top nipple failed. My Dodge Charger never overheated that fast! I used to get about 10 secs. You are forewarned. You will suffer "Now I Suspect Warped Head or Cracked Gasket Damage Syndrome" if you don't proactively change the radiator before 105,000 miles of use. I guarantee that you can't react fast enough to keep the needle from MAXING out. Yes MAX!!! Pegged FAR RIGHT! Okay, so I'm exaggerating because I'm only one data point...I can't make a guarantee like that...anyone else got a story on this one? I had oil tests done last week by two different testing labs, and there is no antifreeze or water in my oil at all (I confess I was worried). I'll write up a comparison of the two lab reports (a Consumer Report kind of story comparing the two labs) when I get a chance in the month. There was no clear winner. Blackstone Labs is getting my next oil test though...they give you more information about your engine's condition. Motor Check was okay and has a nifty syringe collection system (in case you don't change your own oil, you can still suck the sample out of the dip stick) http://www.globaltechnovations.com/products_kit.html But again, I think that Blackstone has the better report: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/body_index.html If you buy both, you can get the syringe, collect two samples, and two firms test for water in your oil. Blackstone is about $18.75 for a test, MotorCheck $25. - Skip '95 M3 - Titanium retainers - Ceramic coated manifold - Pocket Ported Head - bunch of other stuff
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#2. ABS Warning Light - from Chris Brown
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:09:59 -0500 From: "Chris Brown" <ChrisB@Drextec.com> Subject: ABS Warning Light Hi Folks - I'm experiencing intermittent ABS warning light indication. Once it comes on, it stays on until the car is "rebooted". Anyone familiar with what trips this warning light? Thanks in advance! Chris Brown ------------- http://www.ChristianBrown.com
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#3. Insurance - from Prakash Maggan
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 17:23:28 -0500 From: "Prakash Maggan" <pmaggan@yahoo.com> Subject: Insurance Just wanted to inform everyone that American Express offers home/auto insurance and in my experience they have some pretty good rates. I pay $255 / 6months for my 318ti, while my wife pays $317 / 6 months for her 750iL. We also pay $307 / 6 months for our 2000 328i. This is for $250,000/$500,000 Bodily Injury, $100,000 Property. $5,000 med exp, and $250,000/$500,000 Uninsured coverage. These rates include Towing & Labor and Rental car coverage. All cars have a $500 deductible. These rates for for two 26 year olds each with 1 speeding ticket in Springboro, Ohio. They can be found at: http://www.americanexpress.com Under the Financial Services link Prakash Maggan http://hometown.aol.com/dinan750 Email: prakash@maggan.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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#4. RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:27:19 -0600 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? Jeremy, I've been running Hawk HPS pads on the street for the last 5+K miles and agree with you that their dust color is close enough to the color of the wheels to make wheel washing unnecessary. They are also fairly quiet. However, HPS are not high or even medium temperature brake pad. They fade on the local (admittedly 4th gear) autoX courses and I would never think of driving them on the track. Not what I would call an 'equal or better' replacement for OEM pads, but compared to PBR Metal Masters and Deluxe pads on my other bimmers, HPS pads are: - cheap (Deluxe < HPS < MM ) - quiet (like Deluxe, but unlike noisy MMs) - silver dusting matching the color of the wheels (like MMs and Deluxe) - more fade resistant than Deluxe and equal or better than MMs In summary, Hawk HPS pads are perfect for the steet with at most two good back-to-back stops in them, but have a set of Blues of PF97's for the track. Hawk also has an intermediate steet/track pad called HP, but that one is neither quiet, nor dust free. alex f '95 M3 "Jeremy Conners" <Jeremy.Conners@compd To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> evsys.com> cc: Subject: RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? 11/07/01 03:30 PM Please respond to "Jeremy Conners" Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:31:48 -0600 From: "Jeremy Conners" <Jeremy.Conners@compdevsys.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 12:20:30 -0500 From: "Jeremy Conners" <Jeremy.Conners@compdevsys.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? I was thoroughly disgusted with the high graphite content in the stock pads on my 97. After just a day or two of driving, the front wheels looked like somebody shaded them for me. Also, it only took about three days for the pads to squeal after the car was washed. It was almost embarrassing driving a beautiful M3 and pulling up next to other cars at stoplights while squealing away. I wanted a pad comparable, or better, to the stock pads that produced less dust and, for the love of God, didn't squeal!!! I decided to try the Hawk HPS and I've been very happy with them. They've been on the car for ~10kmi now and I've not once heard them squeal. Now, if I happen to neglect washing her for 2 weeks, there's only a hint of dust front and rear. IMO, they offer slightly more braking torque than the stock pads. Are there any other impressions of the Hawk HPS pads out there? Jeremy Conners 97 M3
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#5. [E36M3] Armrest Solution/Offer - from twisty M3
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Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 14:51:53 -0800 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: [E36M3] Armrest Solution/Offer I've received so much help and such generous offers from other list members that I've decided to give a little back. Okay, it's very little, but it's something. I went to Targét on Friday and picked up a small package of four 10-inch blue bungee cords. Pretty small with equally small hooks, but absolutely perfect for the storage-net-to-storage-net armrest solution. I only need one so I have two or three left over (may have lost one, but I'll double check tonight). The offer is open... the first 2-3 responses gets one of these finely crafted U.S. made bungees which are perfect for protecting arms from violent armrest beatings during heavy braking. ;) They're a nice blue, so if you're looking to match you interior up with them, sorry... what do you want, it's free! Just send me your name (privately) and if you're one of the lucky winners, I'll get your name and address and have it mailed out this week. Jonathan L. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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#6. Scott Chan said: - from TFRM3@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:07:40 EST From: TFRM3@aol.com Subject: Scott Chan said: "I kinda wish mine had been more dramatic so we could have figured it out sooner." No you don't. Jay M
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#7. RE: [E36M3] Scott Chan said: - from Mount, Mike
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:25:07 -0800 From: "Mount, Mike" <JMMn@pge.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Scott Chan said: Oh yeah, I agree. Kinda like when my tranny seized on my bike, it smashed into the concrete barrier and I went sliding across the start/finish line at Sears Pt. It'd been nice if that thing had seized as I was pushing it up the ramp AT HOME, and not when it did. OTOH, I did have the rather odd desire to wave to the crowd as I was sliding down the track and they were all watching, saying "Holy Mackeral (or something similar), lookit that guy!!!" Mike -----Original Message----- From: TFRM3@aol.com [mailto:TFRM3@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 3:10 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Scott Chan said: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:07:40 EST From: TFRM3@aol.com Subject: Scott Chan said: "I kinda wish mine had been more dramatic so we could have figured it out sooner." No you don't. Jay M ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. *************************************************************
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#8. RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? - from =?iso-8859-1?Q?Magnus_Thom=E9?=
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:44:47 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Magnus_Thom=E9?= <magnus.thome@envox.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? I have old yellow Pagids on my -96. My main focus is on track days but I don't change pads for the street. I can stand some squeal and rattle ;-) And the yellows work from cold also which is nice on the street ;-) But they do get soft after some laps hard driving so I need to ease off. With the blue Pagids I had on the car earlier I didn't have to ease off but I had a LOT of pad wear instead... BTW I run 245' PZero-C R-tires which I guess, with their grip levels, puts some extra strain on the brakes (the laptimes go down anyway ;-) Now to my question: Has anybody tried the new yellow Pagids? They state some improvements but I haven't talked to anyone yet that has put them to the test... /Magnus Thomé -----Original Message----- From: twisty M3 [mailto:twistym3@hotmail.com] Sent: den 6 november 2001 23:33 To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:29:13 -0800 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: [E36M3] Pad Impressions? Absolutely NOT looking to start the old pad debate again, as I've been there too many times. I am looking for feedback on a few pad choices though. These are what I'm looking in to: Hawk HPS Hawk HP Plus PF-Z Porterfield R4-S maybe Redstuff (??) Any experience with these is welcome. Please include the type of driving you used them for, and any/all impressions you have (noise, dust, performance, whatever!). ;-) BTW, anyone know if pads that WERE black but are now completely silver/ash colored are worth keeping?? I'm guessing no, as they also seem to have teeth now, and that can't be good for rotor life. ;) I don't think I'll ever spend that much money on a brake pad again!!! Thanks!! Jonathan L. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. *************************************************************
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#9. Re: High RPM power loss -- finally solved! - from Tim Gergen
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Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:54:43 +0000 From: "Tim Gergen" <tgergen@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: High RPM power loss -- finally solved! Had the same problem w/ my 95. One of the (rear-most) #6 cyl exhaust valves decided it wanted to be a bannana instead of a valve...had to replace all retainers, etc. I know your pain, but at least you solved the problem. Good luck racing, Tim _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Re: High RPM power loss -- finally solved! - from jim.bassett@alloptic.com
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Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 16:17:23 -0800 From: jim.bassett@alloptic.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: High RPM power loss -- finally solved! > Had the same problem w/ my 95. One of the (rear-most) #6 cyl > exhaust valves > decided it wanted to be a bannana instead of a valve...had to > replace all > retainers, etc. I know your pain, but at least you solved > the problem. You folks are all wimps. If you're going to bend valves, you have to bend them ALL! <bg> Like me. I managed to bend all 12 exhaust valves on the new-to-me race car this past Sat @ Laguna. Ugh. Cheers, Jim Bassett - having a very miserable month, and we're only a week into it 1998 M3/4 - probably feeling glad it was retired from the track 1993 325is #44 KP - 3 whole &^$%#@* laps, new head soon
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#11. RE: Try Again - Oil/grease for hinges, dif. oil? - from Bob Stommel
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Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:41:35 -0500 From: Bob Stommel <rstommel@iquest.net> Subject: RE: Try Again - Oil/grease for hinges, dif. oil? Wurth HHS 2000. Sprays on as a liquid and immediately sets up as a high pressure, high (and low) temperature grease. Once you use this stuff, you'll never go back to anything else. Bob Stommel Just Bob Racing Indianapolis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:41:50 -0600 From: Peter Fanning <p.fanning@verizon.net> Subject: [E36M3] Try Again - Oil/grease for hinges, dif. oil? Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:39:29 -0800 From: Peter Fanning <p.fanning@verizon.net> Subject: Try Again - Oil/grease for hinges, dif. oil? I'm completing an Inspection II and have no clue what kind of oil or grease to use on the throttle linkage, door hinges, strike plates, latches, etc. Please let me know what's recommended. Also, will Mobil 1 gear oil work as-is for the differential or do I need to add some kind of friction modifier? Their website mentions that it works with limited slips but I'd like to be sure. TIA, Peter Fanning '98 M3/4