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#1. Re: [E36M3] WAS Suspension Upgrades cont. - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:49:26 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] WAS Suspension Upgrades cont. Carey asks: Can anyone give me an idea of what I should expect from the OEM shocks on a '99 M3? It has just over 20k miles and feels softer. More lean in the turns, etc. Could the shocks be toast already ? Absolutely!! I think the stock OE struts are pure JUNK after 35K miles. Probably after just 30K miles. See my later post tonight. Your struts may be a little premature or maybe you are just more perceptive than most folks. Shocks fade so gradually you don't know they are gone until they are practically dangerous. See if you can get the dealer to replace them under warranty. Good luck! By the way. It is only the front struts that are bad. I think the rear shocks can probably last 80K+ miles. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas, Texas
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Turning in a leased car, how picky are they? - from Jay Sala
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 15:20:04 +0800 From: Jay Sala <jsala@mist.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Turning in a leased car, how picky are they? I leased my E36 328i and put about 12-14 track days on it, plus several days of auto-x, and the stock tires showed evidence of hard driving as the outer edges of the front tires were totally worn away. Nonetheless, I never heard a complaint from the dealer. In fact, I got my full security deposit back and when I passed by the dealership a month later, it was at the front of the lot as a Certified Pre-owned car! I had put in a lot of mods (suspension, wheels, intake, exhaust, harnesses, ECU) but took them all off (except the reprogrammed ECU) before I turned the car in. They never got back to me about the ECU (by Jim C) or the clutch, which was beginning to slip a bit. The front fender had been professional replaced and repainted, and I was paranoid that they'd say something. Good luck. - Jay
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades cont. - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:15:58 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades cont. Mike, I'm going to cut and paste my comments into your post. I'm going to make some pretty strong comments. Don't take it personally. It is just indicative of my strong opinion regarding the stock OE struts. Mike Morris writes: > I recently installed a set of Bilstein's on my M3. I kept the stock > springs to keep the ride somewhat "soft" and since if I lowered my car, I > would not be able to get into my driveway. I think the Bilsteins should get more credit than the springs for the driveway access. I too was cautious about lowering my M3 because I was bottoming out on speed bumps and railroad tracks. This is the reason I choice Dinan springs. However, with Bilsteins on, there is no danger of the car bottoming or scrapping even if it was lowered 2 inches. A local Dallas guy has an M3 with Bilstein and H&R Sport springs. These are the H&R springs that lower about 1.5 inches. Well, my friend also has the LTW splitter on front. Amazingly, he has not damaged it and he drives his M3 every day. I attribute this to the Bilsteins. You just don't get much movement with Bilsteins. I totally removed the bumpstops from my Bilsteins and I have not even had a hint of "bottoming out" the suspension in 8,000 miles. I think any impact that can fully compress a Bilstein shock/strut would destroy the car. > Compared to my 80K mile > original struts, the Bilsteins are like heaven. The car sucks up bigger > bumps better, and the spring dampening is much better, especially on the > highway, the car doesn't "float" as much. My gawd YES!!! 80K on the originals????? 80K OE struts are not just "floaty", they are dangerous. You could have put a couple of rubber bands on your M3 and noticed a world of difference improvement. Like you, I agree the Bilsteins do well at bigger bumps and higher speeds. The Bilsteins are actually fairly comfortable. But it is the small cracks and breaks in the road that beat you up. Bilsteins don't have any "give" to allow the suspension to soak up small impacts. > I have already driven really > long distances with this set up and I love it 10-fold more than the stock > struts. Compared to 80K original struts, I'd say it is 100x better. I'm car sick just thinking of bobbing up and down on 80K OE struts. I think one other factor helping you is you kept the original springs. Not because they are softer than Dinan or H&R but because your ride height is just enough higher to avoid the god awful Bilstein bumpstop effect. In my opinion, the Bilstein front struts are poorly designed. They are too long and have too limited amount of travel until they are onto the internal bumpstops. My Dinan sprung M3 is about 1/2" lower than stock. As such, I was exactly ON the Bilstein bumpstops at static height. The end result was I was constantly bouncing off the bumpstop. I took a 1,500 mile/4 day trip that just about drove me nuts. It was like riding a damn pogo stick. Use of ANY aftermarket springs will put you into the bumpstop with Bilsteins. I highly recommend removing or at least cutting 2/3 of the internal bumpstop. > Remember, springs and struts work as a system. The springs will > determine your ride height, but more importantly, they have the biggest > role in how "stiff" the car rides (basically its ability to take a big 'o > bump.) I think I mostly agree with you. Springs control large movements like dips in the road and braking/cornering. However, shocks play a big role on small bumps and impacts. The Bilsteins have such a high resistance to any initial movement, they don't budge on small bumps and the impact gets transmitted to the car. Result is a harsh ride if the road is not really smooth. > If anything, the bilsteins struts only improved the ride compared to the > OEM's, and the thought of them being too stiff has not even crossed my > mind. I don't know what to say. Perhaps your ride with the 80K junk struts was so bad you don't notice the harsh Bilstein ride? You just traded one evil for another. > I have never tried the Koni's so I can not compare. I can only > imagine what a set of H&R sport springs would do to this vehicle! Off the car, Koni's seem every bit as stiff as Bilsteins. But Koni's must allow some easy movement to accommodate small bumps whereas the Bilsteins don't. Because on the car, Koni's do ride much nicer than Bilsteins. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 - Bilstein equipped but I truly like a stiff suspension. Plus I don't drive her every day.
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#4. H&R coilovers - from Kit Wetzler
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:29:57 -0800 From: "Kit Wetzler" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> Subject: H&R coilovers > Personally, I think C/O's are best for predominant track use with > limited street use. Then you need to ride in a car with coilovers. ;) I've put 30K miles on my H&Rs and they're still awesome. Very comfy, very controlled... much better than H&R sports and konis. (my previous suspension) sure they are a bit harsh over bit bumps, but they soak them up MUCH better than the H&R sports and konis even could dream of. -kit supercharged 97 m3
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:32:19 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades OK. Last post from me on Bilsteins (for a while :-) Justin writes: > A friend and I also recently installed the Bilsteins and combination > with the H&R OE Springs (NOT THE SPORT ONES!). The car sits a tiny bit > lower in the front. The bump stops have been trimmed. Great!! I highly recommend trimming (or removing) the bumpstops. > Ride is slightly stiffer than stock. Not bad on long trips, not as good > absorbing minor bumps in the road. I'd imagine some lack of dampening on > small bumps might be attributed to the stiffer upper mounts front and > rear. I agree small bumps are the most annoying with Bilsteins. I'm beginning to think there may be a WIDE variation in Bilstein struts. Some people don't mind the Bilstein's ride. I don't see how anybody would think my Bilsteins are not absurdly stiff. I truly like a stiff suspension but these Bilsteins are even testing my limits. > The stability and handling gains are worth it. The car feels much more > collected at higher speeds and does not have the floaty feeling. > > My OE Boges were pretty soft at 60K as well. Absolutely!! Bilsteins are great at high speeds and track use. 60K?? Your OE struts were not doing anything. No wonder you thought your ride was floaty. Bilsteins will never be floaty. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas, Texas
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#6. Best LTW flywheel? Clutch? - from RacerxJLing@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 04:16:47 EST From: RacerxJLing@aol.com Subject: Best LTW flywheel? Clutch? I have had a Turner ltw flywheel for about a year now and run the BMW OEM clutch per Will Turner's suggestion. I don't have any noticeable driveline shock. No problems w/ the flywheel nor the clutch. Jeff Okay, anyone know who makes the best E36 LTW flywheel?. A number of different vendors offer then, although I know for a fact that a few sell the same part, but are there any appreciable difference between all of them? To go with the non-dual mass flywheel I would also like a proper clutch disc with a sprung hub to reduce driveline shock, which is "the" one to get?. Thanks Rob >>
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades - from Steven Hazard
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:19:40 -0600 From: "Steven Hazard" <98m3@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades Lowell's thoughts regarding C/O's is correct. The car will feel bouncy depending on the shock/spring combination. My TC Kline Race C/O kit is not for timid on the street :-) 450lb front springs & 550lb rears with DA Konis..... Even with the rear shocks set on the soffest compression setting for street driving. My car has 50K on this suspension as a daily driver. What is important to note is that the stifffness of the linear spring is the culprit....both in ride quality on the street but also suspension travel. Any decent sized depression in the road will cause my front suspension to HIT the bump stops hard....BANG~~~~~ All you have to do is place a Linear C/O Spring next to a Progressive rate spring to see what I'm talking about....Geee that linear Spring sure looks tiny :-) I have posted in the past that my car has a strange setup..I left the front TC kit alone but do swap springs in the rear since it's so easy. I run a progressive H&R Sport spring in the rear (385lbs) for street/Auto X duty...550's for the track. IMHO C/O's are for real serious track/autocross folk. A good "package" from a vender such as Dinan, TC Kline, or Ground Control is what most people should shoot for. C/O's only offer corner weighting and ride height as a further asset, and most folks wouldn't be able to notice/take advantage of this small edge in performance. Cheers, Steve Somebody with C/O's help me explain this next point. Remember C/O's use a pure linear rate spring vs. progressive rate springs with stock/Dinan/H&R/Eibach/etc. Linear rate springs dramatically change the way your suspension moves. I've heard C/O's described as "bouncy." I don't think most people will like daily driving on linear rate springs. Just be sure you know what you are getting into with C/O's on a daily driver. Personally, I think C/O's are best for predominant track use with limited street use. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas, Texas
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#8. RE: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades - from Seth Thomas
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:39:55 -0500 From: "Seth Thomas" <porsche993@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades Guys, Lowell is right about coilovers. They are meant for the track when you use them with linear springs. But the H&R coilovers do not use a linear rate spring. It is a progressive rate spring that rides on an adjustable spring perch. Even the springs on the rear in the setup are progressive. And they are not 60mm or 2.5" in size like the H&R or Eibach race springs. One way that I know this is that I cannot fit my SSR Comps on the front of my 1996 M3 with the H&R coilovers without spacers but on my LTW I can fit them without any spacers. They are a nice ride for the street. Seth Thomas www.m3ltw.com -----Original Message----- From: LoweSeaton@aol.com [mailto:LoweSeaton@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:40 AM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:31:56 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Suspension Upgrades Seth and others write: This is my experience with the coilovers. They are really smooth for what you are getting and you can set the height as low as you want them. They are stiffer than stock but they are not as stiff as H&R's and Bilstiens or the Dinan setup. Somebody with C/O's help me explain this next point. Remember C/O's use a pure linear rate spring vs. progressive rate springs with stock/Dinan/H&R/Eibach/etc. Linear rate springs dramatically change the way your suspension moves. I've heard C/O's described as "bouncy." I don't think most people will like daily driving on linear rate springs. Just be sure you know what you are getting into with C/O's on a daily driver. Personally, I think C/O's are best for predominant track use with limited street use. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas, Texas ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. *************************************************************
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#9. Re: [E36M3] WAS Suspension Upgrades cont. - from The Abels
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:33:22 -0600 From: "The Abels" <aAbel@austin.rr.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] WAS Suspension Upgrades cont. > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:49:26 EST > From: LoweSeaton@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] WAS Suspension Upgrades cont. > > Absolutely!! I think the stock OE struts are pure JUNK after 35K miles. > Probably after just 30K miles. See my later post tonight. Your struts > may be a little premature or maybe you are just more perceptive than > most folks. Shocks fade so gradually you don't know they are gone until > they are practically dangerous. > > See if you can get the dealer to replace them under warranty. Good > luck! By the way. It is only the front struts that are bad. I think > the rear shocks can probably last 80K+ miles. > > Lowell Seaton > '95 M3 > Dallas, Texas > My experience exactly. At 42k miles, my front wheels 'chatter' over small, disruptive square edged bumps on city streets. This manifests itself by sending vibrations through the cabin that should be damped. In addition, unless I go very slow on some speedbumps in my 'hood, it's easy to blow through the entirety of the travel up front. Jeff 97 M3/4, in need of H&R coilovers
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#10. Re: [E36M3] dyno testing, proper hold down points? - from Matt Henson
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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:00:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] dyno testing, proper hold down points? Hey Jeff, I'm not sure that there is a good place to tie down on a dyno. Most dyno operators use the lower control arms, which is obviously dangerous. The lower subframe member under the tranny is solid enough but too close to the center to properly stabilize the car. I don't think that there is much of anything else down there. I've had my car dynoed about 6 times without bent control arms. Maybe the key is to put the straps on the outside of the arms, near the wheel and trailing arm. That way the force isn't directed at the center of the lower control arm so it shouldn't bend. Any experts out there with advice? -Matt --- The Abels <aAbel@austin.rr.com> wrote: > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:28:07 -0600 > From: "The Abels" <aAbel@austin.rr.com> > Subject: dyno testing, proper hold down points? > > I'm heading back to the dyno tomorrow afternoon to > see if the trinkets I > added to the M3 do anything. Last time I went, the > toothless monkeys at the > speed shop had trouble finding appropriate tie down > spots in the rear. > Anyone know what these are? I have visions of > torqued, pretzled lower > control arms that give me the shivers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com