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#1. Re: [E36M3] Brakes, Brakes and more brakes - from Mark Radelow
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:41:31 +0000 From: "Mark Radelow" <radelow@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Brakes, Brakes and more brakes I have had the EBC Green's and Brembo rotors on my M now for 5000+ miles. I beat the crap out of the brakes and have yet to have any warping problems. Really strange that you are having a totally difference experience. But since you are having warping issues with all pads I doubt the EBC's are to blame. Mark 95 ///M3 From: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> Reply-To: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Subject: [E36M3] Brakes, Brakes and more brakes Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:49:09 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:45:31 -0800 From: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> Subject: Brakes, Brakes and more brakes Well so the brake saga continues. I've replaced all four rotors with Zimmerman cross drilled from eurasian, approx $260 for all 4. The holes do not look drilled so they must be cast in. I also added rear porterfield r4s, kept the old front r4s. I did this because I'm still having a warping issues. A note, I warp rotors on the street, granted always spirited driving. So as it stands here's the timeline; EBC's front, stock rear pads- warped new Brembo front rotors within 400 miles. Resurfaced the front only to warp shortly thereafter. Replaced rotors with Euro rotors. Warped euros in 1000 miles. Beginning to think its my braking technique. Starting to be a lot easier on the brakes. Pads lasted 12k miles. New set of EBC's with new Brembo rotors - warped in 1000 miles. I babied the brakes, couldn't believe it. P.O.S. blamed the EBC's. Removed new EBC's. Put on front Porterfield r4s with new Brembo rotors - warped in 1000 miles Current situation, new Zimmerman rotors w/ r4s all 4 corners - jury still out. So in summary, that's 3 sets Brembo's and 1 set of euro rotors in a period of about 25k miles. A little excessive I know but here's my theory. I believe that the aftermarket pads have significantly higher coefficient of friction than stock. The front brakes are grabbing a lot faster than the rear causing more work to be done in the front. By having stock pads in the rear and aftermarkets in front I was generating too much heat hence the warping. Granted this is just a theory I'm exploring. Looking hindsight it all seems to be so logical why couldn't have I figured it out a few rotors ago? I don't know why it took me 4 sets of rotors to realize it. Well the jury is still out on my new Zimmermans/r4s combo. I know that I'm not the only one having this problem. If you are also having this problem, you might try to get a matching rear brake pad set or you can wait about 3 weeks and see if I write back with warped rotors. Also the Zimmerman rotors look pretty cool but do add noise of the drilled rotors. Sounds similar to mud tires on a truck, of course, only when braking. Any comments on my little warping experience. Am I the only stupid one who just changed front pads without changing rears. I just hope that this isn't one of those, "everyone knows" situation. steve ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. ************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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#2. Re: [E36M3] brakes - from Steven Tom
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:22:31 -0800 From: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] brakes Kit do you also match the rear pads with the front? This is the point I was trying to make. I believe that we are making the front pads do too much work hence the warping. steve At 01:39 PM 11/26/01 -0600, kitwetzler@mindspring.com wrote: >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:34:41 -0500 >From: "kitwetzler@mindspring.com" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> >Subject: brakes > > >I too am a constant warper of brakes. really bums me out. I've been >using metal masters and Hawk HP+ pads... might try going back to stock to >see if I can stop warping rotors. Lots of the performance street pads out >there get their higher coefficient of friction by retaining more heat in >the pad... this could cause rotor warping because the pads run hotter. > > -kit > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . > > >************************************************************* >List Commands >UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. >DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. >GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > >To issue a command/request to the server: >Send a message with the command you wish executed as the >subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. >************************************************************* >
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#3. brakes - from kitwetzler@mindspring.com
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:35:55 -0500 From: "kitwetzler@mindspring.com" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> Subject: brakes > Kit do you also match the rear pads with the front? This is the point I > was trying to make. I believe that we are making the front pads do too > much work hence the warping. I'm running same pads front and rear. I really think it's more the pads holding more heat than stock rather than the mismatch. -kit -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
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#4. Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? - from Thomas Koch
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:54:15 -0500 From: "Thomas Koch" <tommy@m3.streetracing.org> Subject: Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? Tires were sliding around a lot yesterday after it rained under light acceleration, I have 235/35-19 tires. Somebody told me that the = thinner the profile of the tire the less bad weather traction you have, that tires like that are only good for looks or dry traction. Is this true? If so what is a safe profile to use, I'm thinking 235/45-17 might even be a little bit too low. The reason I'm asking is because I will probably buying a VW GTI for my daily driver and want it to be safe and reliable, maybe I should stay with the stock 15's that come with it, looks much nicer in 17's though. <shrug> =20 Thanks in advance,=20 =20 Tommy '99 M3
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#5. Re: [E36M3] brakes - from Carey Probst
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:23:43 -0800 (PST) From: Carey Probst <hcprobst@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] brakes Another possibility is the difference in braking technique from track to street. On the track you are constantly on and off the brakes but on the street you may be braking hard and then coming to a full stop with the brakes on, adding a huge heat load to the rotors. I also brake late and hard on the street but release and allow to cool before coming to a full stop and then try to not have the brakes on. So far no warping at Watkins Glen, NHIS, or the street. Carey '99M3 with stuff --- "kitwetzler@mindspring.com" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> wrote: > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:35:55 -0500 > From: "kitwetzler@mindspring.com" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> > Subject: brakes > > > Kit do you also match the rear pads with the front? This is the > point I > > was trying to make. I believe that we are making the front pads > do too > > much work hence the warping. > > I'm running same pads front and rear. I really think it's more the > pads holding more heat than stock rather than the mismatch. > > -kit > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing > list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET > directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > ************************************************************* > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
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#6. Re: [E36M3] brakes - from Steven Tom
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:37:42 -0800 From: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] brakes good point. I also late brake and cool before coming to a stop. I started doing this after the first set of warped rotors. A step further though, I try to either not have the brakes on at the light or I'll use my ebrake such that the pads are not sitting on the rotors. I really think having common pads front and rear is my answer. I will let you all know in a few weeks, plenty of time to warp rotors :( steve At 03:29 PM 11/26/01 -0600, Carey Probst wrote: >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:23:43 -0800 (PST) >From: Carey Probst <hcprobst@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] brakes > >Another possibility is the difference in braking technique from track >to street. > >On the track you are constantly on and off the brakes but on the >street you may be braking hard and then coming to a full stop with >the brakes on, adding a huge heat load to the rotors. > >I also brake late and hard on the street but release and allow to >cool before coming to a full stop and then try to not have the brakes >on. > >So far no warping at Watkins Glen, NHIS, or the street.
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:32:35 -0600 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? Tommy, What effect would you expect low tire profile to have on wet traction? My guess would be none, or insignificant next to the tire design, construction, compound and tread/wear. alex f "Thomas Koch" <tommy@m3.streetr To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> acing.org> cc: Subject: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? 11/26/01 02:59 PM Please respond to "Thomas Koch" Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:54:15 -0500 From: "Thomas Koch" <tommy@m3.streetracing.org> Subject: Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? Tires were sliding around a lot yesterday after it rained under light acceleration, I have 235/35-19 tires. Somebody told me that the = thinner the profile of the tire the less bad weather traction you have, that tires like that are only good for looks or dry traction. Is this true? If so what is a safe profile to use, I'm thinking 235/45-17 might even be a little bit too low. The reason I'm asking is because I will probably buying a VW GTI for my daily driver and want it to be safe and reliable, maybe I should stay with the stock 15's that come with it, looks much nicer in 17's though. <shrug> =20 Thanks in advance,=20 =20 Tommy '99 M3
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:11:36 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? Tommy, A tire's profile has very little to do with the tires wet traction. The tread pattern, rubber hardness, and rubber compound are the key factors. For example, a tire with no tread, such as a bald tire or a drag racing slick, has no traction regardless of the height of the sidewall. You did not say what brand & model of tire you have. But I can tell you any tire in a 235/35-19 size is not going to have good wet traction because tires that size are not designed for extensive wet use. The tire company made compromises to improve dry use over wet use. You are not going to find good "all season" tires in 30/35/40 series widths. Anybody buying tires this low, are expecting superior dry traction. If you plan to drive your car during the winter snow or heavy rain months, you may want to buy a second set of wheels with good "all season" tread pattern/compound tires. Many people even buy a whole different car for winter use and park their sports car for the winter. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 Dallas - Not much snow to worry about but plenty of rain
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#9. Re: Brakes, Brakes and more brakes - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:21:35 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Brakes, Brakes and more brakes Steve, It's not an issue of whether you're really easy on the brakes or not. It's a matter of your technique in applying the brakes. For example, when performing a stop from 60 to 0, you can: Use threshold braking, apply the brakes for, say, two seconds, and stop the car in 110 feet. Or, you can lightly apply the brakes, and ride the brake pedal for 800 feet, to slow from 60 to 0. In the latter case, you may raise the rotor temperature more than in the former case. Do this repeatedly, and it can cause problems. Obviously, you aren't going to always use threshold braking, but it's an example to highlight two extremes. When driving downhill, you can use engine braking to maintain your speed (lift off the throttle, no brakes used), or you can lightly apply the brakes, and keep them on, all the way down the hill. Driving close behind another car as you travel downhill normally means you'll be hitting your brakes every time there's a speed differential (you start getting closer). Adding a comfort zone will let you lift off the throttle each time the person ahead of you starts to slow, so you may only need to hit your brakes once, instead of ten times, as you drive down the hill. Less brake usage, less heat generated. Do you have an automatic transmission? Cars with automatic transmissions don't provide as much engine braking (when the transmission is in 'D'), and tend to coast and gain speed going downhill, so the drivers tend to ride the brakes. Unless, of course, you manually drop down a gear. Try using your brakes with MORE force, for less time, to accomplish the required braking. Here's a good exercise to try: At a relatively uncrowded stop that you frequently encounter, make note of your approach speed, the location where you start your braking, the intensity of your braking, the amount of time that it took to stop the car, and the location where you come to a complete stop. Now, try the same approach speed, but brake later AND come to a stop at the same location. Make note of the intensity of your braking, and the amount of time that it took to stop the car. Brake later and later, but always stop at the same location. Note braking intensity and duration. Another thing to note with your braking. Do you apply your brakes with a strong initial force, and ease up as the car slows, or do you begin with a light application, and vary the intensity of your brake force (firmer, softer, firmer, softer), until you stop? Rotors warp because they get too hot. Heat is generated by the friction between the brake pads and the rotors. A short application of braking applies heat for a short period of time. Riding the brakes will keep heat applied to the rotors for a much longer period of time. Rush hour traffic, where you GO! and then STOP! rather than smoothly press and lift the gas pedal and use as little braking as possible, is also a condition for keeping brake rotors too hot. You won't be moving fast enough to cool your rotors, and you'll keep applying the brakes (and adding more heat), until the rotors warp. One other possibility... Are you sure that you're warping your rotors? Did you (or a shop) actually measure them and verify that they were warped? Is it possible that you aren't properly bedding in your pads? Especially if you try a different compound type. Many list members have commented about feeling like they warped rotors on the track, only to have the symptoms disappear later. In the case of my PF90s, I have dedicated track rotors for the front, but I keep the rear rotors on for both track and street. After two track days, the rear rotors become impregnated with carbon (visibly!), and it takes quite awhile for the street (Jurid) pads to wear it away. During this 'wearing away' period, the rear rotors will occasionally grab erratically, and almost feel like the rotors are warped. My $0.02... -rb >From: Steven Tom <stom@qualcomm.com> >To: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> >CC: e36m3@bmw-m.net >Subject: Re: Brakes, Brakes and more brakes >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:34:53 -0800 > >I knew this would be the first thing that was brought up because I've seen >it a lot on other boards. I have to say that I've been very easy on >brakes. I do not have warping problems on the track only on the street. >Ironic huh? > >steve > >At 06:57 PM 11/26/01 +0000, Ron Buchalski wrote: >>Steven, >> >>It's still your braking technique. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? - from David Ngo
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:40:19 -0500 From: David Ngo <dngo@commvault.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? Lowe, I'll definitely agree that wet traction depends on tread pattern and rubber compound far more than sidewall height. However, I would like to respectfully disagree with the statement that tires in that size will not have good wet weather traction. Bridgestone's S-O3 tire comes in 235/35-19 and is excellent in the wet. In fact, it is designed specifically to maintain wet traction over its useful life. I'd take the S-O3 in the wet during warm weather over all season tires any day. My S-O2s in 245/40-17 have incredible wet traction. I've driven through many heavy downpours at highway speeds and have not had any problems. I autocrossed in steady rain last weekend with them instead of my Kumho Victoracers and they were amazing. In fact, after it dried somewhat in the afternoon (no standing water), I switched to the Kumhos and was very surprised to find out that I had considerably less traction than with the S-O2s. This was the first time I had autocrossed with street tires all year. Regards, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: LoweSeaton@aol.com [mailto:LoweSeaton@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:19 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Do low profile tires = no traction in the wet? <snip> > You did not say what brand & model of tire you have. But I > can tell you any tire in a 235/35-19 size is not going to > have good wet traction because tires that size are not > designed for extensive wet use. The tire company made > compromises to improve dry use over wet use. You are not > going to find good "all season" tires in 30/35/40 series > widths. Anybody buying tires this low, are expecting > superior dry traction. >