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#1. Re: [E36M3] I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Todd C. Merrill
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:39:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Todd C. Merrill" <tmerrill@mathworks.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] I'm Crooked - Alignment Help On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Robert Exconde wrote: > miniscule). I ran down a straight moderate throttle, and hands off and it > pulled a bit to the right but I think that it was the road doing it. I have a follow-up question to tack onto this.... The S02's on my car are very nearly gone. I'm noticing that tramlining is more pronounced now. I'm also noticing the car pulling to the right, not always, but on most roads. Could I just be experiencing the exacerbated effect of road crowning due to near-slick tires, or might I have jostled something loose/askew after hitting the right-side curbing one too many times at turn 12 at New Hampster this fall? The car was fine before, but since two things have changed (lots of tread wear and some curb riding), I'm soliciting opinions from others with more experience; this is the first time since I've owned the car the tires have been this far worn. 7 months on a set of S02's...yoikes. I plan to get new tires and an alignment before the spring anyway, but I'd rather do it all later than sooner since the car will be mostly garaged this winter. Until next time... Todd tmerrill@mathworks.com 1998 BMW M3 coupe BMW CCA member, Boston Chapter ---
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#2. Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Ron Katona
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:09:40 -0500 From: "Ron Katona" <rkatona@bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help Robert Exconde wrote: [...] > Could some one explain this cross camber or point me to a link that will? > Also should I have had an alignment before and after the camber plate > add-on? I need help. . . How can the camber plates prevent a correct > alignment. Cross camber just means the difference in camber left and right. With 60 minutes per degree, your car had 42 minutes of difference (1 degree 28 minutes is ~42 minutes less than 2 degrees 9 minutes give or take a minute for rounding) which is .7 degrees. The spec for the max difference is 30 minutes, or .5 degrees, so your car is out of spec. You didn't have to get analignment beforehand, but the mechanic's point is that something isn't lined up properly on your car and since there was no baseline for comparison, we don't know if the camber plates are bad (iffy), or if something was slightly bent before that installation took place (less iffy). Every car with a fixed camber plate will be a little off. Normal build tolerances and very slight deformations of the strut towers with age/potholes can cause alignments to be a little off. That's why there's a rather large .5 degree tolerance in the spec. The problem is that we don't know if all the tolerances may be leaning one way or the other, or if something's bent, or if the camber plate is defective, or what. We also don't know which side is "right." Your best bet would be to call Dinan and talk to people here who have those plates and see what kind of camber they're getting. If it's closer to one of your measurements, at least you can guess which side has a problem. To fully diagnose it, you may have to put the original parts back on and check the alignment again. The rear camber is OK, but the total toe is more than the stock spec calls for (.20 +/- .5), but that's not such a bad thing though as the M3 is more stable under power with more toe than stock. > BTW the car feels definatly different now. May be a hair off (I mean > miniscule). I ran down a straight moderate throttle, and hands off and it > pulled a bit to the right but I think that it was the road doing it. Camber will cause a thrust in the direction of the lean of the tire. Your left tire is pushing to the right slightly more than the right tire is pushing back to the left assuming everything else is OK. That _could_ be the reason for the slight pull. -- Ron Katona
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#3. Re: [E36M3] I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Chris Teague
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:31:18 -0800 From: "Chris Teague" <cteague@home.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] I'm Crooked - Alignment Help Robert, Cross Camber should be the difference between L&R sides. So I think it should be 0.81, so thier numbers don't match for cross camber, but they do for cross caster. Anyway, 0.81, if it is correct, is way out of spec, so something seems wrong. The question is, was the car that way before, or are the camber plates not matched. To avoid a car pulling to one side, you need to make sure the difference between L&R castor/camber is not too much, or the car will pull to one side (usually to the side with more of either). If it were my car, I would take a close look at all the parts, since it sounds like one part is out of spec. Or take it too another shop who is willing to do that for you. Chris 97 M3/4 ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:21:02 -0600 > From: "Robert Exconde" <99e36m3@exconde.com> > Subject: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help > > Hey gang... need some help. > > When I got the M3 it started pulling to the right. I decided to add Dinan > Camber plates on my 99 ///M3 coupe, then get the alignment so I would save > by getting one alignment rather than two. > > I finally took the car in today to get an alignment and here is what the > repost said all in the format degrees.minutes: > > Left Front: > Actual-- > Camber: -2.09 > Caster: 7.10 > Toe: .07 > SAI 16.16 > Included Angle: 14.07 > Turning Angle Diff. ..... > > Right Front: > Actual-- > Camber: -1.28 > Caster: 7.32 > Toe: .07 > SAI 15.04 > Included Angle: 13.36 > Turning Angle Diff. ..... > > Front: > Actual-- > Cross Camber: -.42 > Cross Caster: .21 > Toe: .14 > Set Back: .07 > > Left Rear > Camber : -1.46 > Toe: .15 > > Right Rear > Camber : -1.38 > Toe: .17 > > Rear > Camber : 0.32 > Toe: -.01 > > These numbers are way off I think... They told me that my cross camber was > off spec range. And there was nothing that they could do. They told me that > I should have had an alignment before adding the camber plates then again > after adding the camber plates so they could compare the difference. > Specifically this is what the reciept said: > "Customer reports had camber plates installed and car pulls to the left. > Perform Alignment . Performed a four wheel alignment. Adjusted rear within > is spec. front camber and caster off. Customer has fixed camber plates > installed that are not adjustable. Advised cross camber off bt 42 See sheet. > Advised unable to determine which side side or both bendt witrh after market > camber plates." > > This was taken word for word, mispelling for mispelling. Here is another > thing that I noticed that was done wront. I told the SA that the car was > pulling to right NOT to the left. Would this have made a difference? > > Could some one explain this cross camber or point me to a link that will? > Also should I have had an alignment before and after the camber plate > add-on? I need help. . . How can the camber plates prevent a correct > alignment. > > BTW the car feels definatly different now. May be a hair off (I mean > miniscule). I ran down a straight moderate throttle, and hands off and it > pulled a bit to the right but I think that it was the road doing it. >
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#4. RE: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Robert Exconde
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:59:59 -0600 From: "Robert Exconde" <99e36m3@exconde.com> Subject: RE: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help Chris, The car was pulling a bit to the right before I added the camber, that is why I figured that I would save 160 and get it done only once. yes...ouch. I know I have to do something about the situation, but I'm not sure. 1. I leave it and always worry in the back of my mind if I'm going to screw up my car. 2. Remove the Camber Plates, align, reinstall, and align again ( If this is the case, then Ed get ready to remove the suspension! )I prefer the former obviously. I bought the Dinan Camber plates and I dont believe they are installed wrong. After installation I compared the installation with Ed Tang's 95. The only thing I can think of that would be wrong is the camber plates or the installation thereof. What would you suggest are the out of spec parts? Is align, install, align a required process? I just dont understand how camber plates can prevent an alignment. If anyone can enlighten me as to why an alignment is necessary before the installation? Robert This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Teague [mailto:cteague@home.com] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:31 PM To: Robert Exconde; E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] I'm Crooked - Alignment Help Robert, Cross Camber should be the difference between L&R sides. So I think it should be 0.81, so thier numbers don't match for cross camber, but they do for cross caster. Anyway, 0.81, if it is correct, is way out of spec, so something seems wrong. The question is, was the car that way before, or are the camber plates not matched. To avoid a car pulling to one side, you need to make sure the difference between L&R castor/camber is not too much, or the car will pull to one side (usually to the side with more of either). If it were my car, I would take a close look at all the parts, since it sounds like one part is out of spec. Or take it too another shop who is willing to do that for you. Chris 97 M3/4 ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:21:02 -0600 > From: "Robert Exconde" <99e36m3@exconde.com> > Subject: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help > > Hey gang... need some help. > > When I got the M3 it started pulling to the right. I decided to add Dinan > Camber plates on my 99 ///M3 coupe, then get the alignment so I would save > by getting one alignment rather than two. > > I finally took the car in today to get an alignment and here is what the > repost said all in the format degrees.minutes: > > Left Front: > Actual-- > Camber: -2.09 > Caster: 7.10 > Toe: .07 > SAI 16.16 > Included Angle: 14.07 > Turning Angle Diff. ..... > > Right Front: > Actual-- > Camber: -1.28 > Caster: 7.32 > Toe: .07 > SAI 15.04 > Included Angle: 13.36 > Turning Angle Diff. ..... > > Front: > Actual-- > Cross Camber: -.42 > Cross Caster: .21 > Toe: .14 > Set Back: .07 > > Left Rear > Camber : -1.46 > Toe: .15 > > Right Rear > Camber : -1.38 > Toe: .17 > > Rear > Camber : 0.32 > Toe: -.01 > > These numbers are way off I think... They told me that my cross camber was > off spec range. And there was nothing that they could do. They told me that > I should have had an alignment before adding the camber plates then again > after adding the camber plates so they could compare the difference. > Specifically this is what the reciept said: > "Customer reports had camber plates installed and car pulls to the left. > Perform Alignment . Performed a four wheel alignment. Adjusted rear within > is spec. front camber and caster off. Customer has fixed camber plates > installed that are not adjustable. Advised cross camber off bt 42 See sheet. > Advised unable to determine which side side or both bendt witrh after market > camber plates." > > This was taken word for word, mispelling for mispelling. Here is another > thing that I noticed that was done wront. I told the SA that the car was > pulling to right NOT to the left. Would this have made a difference? > > Could some one explain this cross camber or point me to a link that will? > Also should I have had an alignment before and after the camber plate > add-on? I need help. . . How can the camber plates prevent a correct > alignment. > > BTW the car feels definatly different now. May be a hair off (I mean > miniscule). I ran down a straight moderate throttle, and hands off and it > pulled a bit to the right but I think that it was the road doing it. >
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#5. Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Chris Teague
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:09:18 -0800 From: "Chris Teague" <cteague@home.com> Subject: Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help Robert, As Ron K. said, I would suspect other parts before the camber plates. I would first just take the rubber covers off the top of the strut from under the hood, and measure them closely to compare both sides. If they measure about the same relative to the body, then the camber plates are OK. In that case, I would jack the car up and look at the lower control arm and rear bushing. It is possible you have a bent lower arm, or bad bushing. If those look good also, then it is possible the body is tweaked. Camber plates should not prevent doing the alighnment, it's just that you cloud the issue slightly as to whether the problem is the plates themselves, or another part on the car. If it were me, I would start measuring parts first, before I removed anything. Good Luck, Chris 97 M3/4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Exconde" <99e36m3@exconde.com> To: "Chris Teague" <cteague@home.com>; "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: RE: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help > Chris, > > The car was pulling a bit to the right before I added the camber, that is > why I figured that I would save 160 and get it done only once. yes...ouch. > > I know I have to do something about the situation, but I'm not sure. > 1. I leave it and always worry in the back of my mind if I'm going to screw > up my car. > 2. Remove the Camber Plates, align, reinstall, and align again ( If this is > the case, then Ed get ready to remove the suspension! )I prefer the former > obviously. > > I bought the Dinan Camber plates and I dont believe they are installed > wrong. After installation I compared the installation with Ed Tang's 95. The > only thing I can think of that would be wrong is the camber plates or the > installation thereof. What would you suggest are the out of spec parts? > > Is align, install, align a required process? I just dont understand how > camber plates can prevent an alignment. If anyone can enlighten me as to why > an alignment is necessary before the installation? > > Robert
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#6. Rear Defroster Problem - from Chris Salter
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:37:40 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Salter <errsomeone@yahoo.com> Subject: Rear Defroster Problem All, My '98 M3's rear defroster does not seem to be functioning. The control units button lights up once pushed and turns off after the 15mins, as it should. However, the rear never clears, nor gives any other signs of working. Any sugestions of where to look? Thanks - Chris E30 ///M3 Near EVO E36 ///M3 Silver E36 ///M3 YELLOW!! (RIP) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com
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#7. Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from VT
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 01:03:22 -0800 (PST) From: VT <fstbmwm3@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help >"Robert Exconde" <99e36m3@exconde.com> >Subject: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help >When I got the M3 it started pulling to the right. I >decided to add Dinan Camber plates on my 99 ///M3 >coupe, then get the alignment so I would save by >getting one alignment rather than two. You might have to make another trip to the dealer and pay for another allignment. Here's some propable causes: 1)One of the camber plates was not installed properly. They must be installed with the thinner side of the plate on the outside. 2) The car shocks had not "settled" after the McPherson struts (with the plates now) were bolted on. 3) The top 3 strut bolts that attach to the strut tower have some play, that can cause a considerable difference. The mechanic must take the bolts out and try again. 4) If you have a strut bar, it is pushing or pulling the shock towers to one side. I have an adjustable Motorsport bar and it does it some times. After 5 alignments I have experienced all of the above problems. Hope it helps, Vlasis 95 M3 (tons of mods) http://home.talkcity.com/ThePits/vlasis/index.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com
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#8. Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Neil Maller
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:47:01 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help on 12/3/01 8:38 PM, "Robert Exconde" <99e36m3@exconde.com> wrote: > When I got the M3 it started pulling to the right. I decided to add Dinan > Camber plates on my 99 ///M3 coupe, then get the alignment so I would save > by getting one alignment rather than two. > > I finally took the car in today to get an alignment and here is what the > repost said all in the format degrees.minutes: > > Left Front: > Actual-- > Camber: -2.09 > Caster: 7.10 > Toe: .07 > SAI 16.16 > Included Angle: 14.07 > Turning Angle Diff. ..... > > Right Front: > Actual-- > Camber: -1.28 > Caster: 7.32 > Toe: .07 > SAI 15.04 > Included Angle: 13.36 > Turning Angle Diff. ..... > > Front: > Actual-- > Cross Camber: -.42 > Cross Caster: .21 > Toe: .14 > Set Back: .07 > > Left Rear > Camber : -1.46 > Toe: .15 > > Right Rear > Camber : -1.38 > Toe: .17 > > Rear > Camber : 0.32 > Toe: -.01 > > These numbers are way off I think... They told me that my cross camber was > off spec range. And there was nothing that they could do. They told me that > I should have had an alignment before adding the camber plates then again > after adding the camber plates so they could compare the difference. > Specifically this is what the reciept said: > "Customer reports had camber plates installed and car pulls to the left. > Perform Alignment . Performed a four wheel alignment. Adjusted rear within > is spec. front camber and caster off. Customer has fixed camber plates > installed that are not adjustable. Advised cross camber off bt 42 See sheet. > Advised unable to determine which side side or both bendt witrh after market > camber plates." > > This was taken word for word, mispelling for mispelling. Here is another > thing that I noticed that was done wront. I told the SA that the car was > pulling to right NOT to the left. Would this have made a difference? > > Could some one explain this cross camber or point me to a link that will? > Also should I have had an alignment before and after the camber plate > add-on? I need help. . . How can the camber plates prevent a correct > alignment. > > BTW the car feels definatly different now. May be a hair off (I mean > miniscule). I ran down a straight moderate throttle, and hands off and it > pulled a bit to the right but I think that it was the road doing it. > > Robert From http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-085b.htm "CROSS CAMBER Definition: The difference side-to-side between camber settings. More than half a degree difference may cause a steering pull toward the side with the most (positive) camber." BMW's TIS CD-ROM shows no spec for cross camber as such; however individual wheel camber is allowed a +/- 30 min tolerance which could result in up to a full degree of difference between sides. Therefore you are well within stock tolerance (of course with camber plates there is no applicable BMW spec for absolute camber value) Anecdotally, differences of over 1 degree are common in used M3s. Your camber plates may or may not affect caster, depending on how they're designed (and whether you also have lowering springs). Stock caster spec for the 96+ M3 is: 7 deg 35 min +/- 30 min at +/- 10 deg wheel lock 7 deg 50 min +/- 30 min at +/- 20 deg wheel lock so you appear to be OK on that score as well. Putting it charitably, your dealer's SA seems to be having difficulty understanding his own measurements. Sure it might have been interesting to have measured alignment before adding the plates, but probably not worth the added expense. All that said, if I were going to the trouble and expense of camber plates, I'd buy adjustable ones. For fixed camber changes, shims do the job just fine for under $5 and much easier installation. Neil 96 M3
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#9. Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help - from Neil Maller
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:57:00 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: I'm Crooked - Alignment Help WHOOPS! Correction to my previous post - my bad. I just noticed the TIS footnote specifying a max side-to-side difference in camber and caster of 30 min. So your cross camber at 42 min is in fact slightly out of spec. Nonetheless in my experience this is not only typical for used M3s, but maybe even better than average. Neil 96 M3
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#10. Re: [E36M3] '95 Cam timing - from Matt Henson
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:06:56 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 Cam timing Hi Bob, The retainers don't cause the valves to float since float means not closing with the cam. If they are a little bent then it can reduce the lift of the valve, hurting performance. If they break then it's probably more of a flying than a floating as all hell will break lose. As for your dyno, looks to me like a little high RPM mis-fire. Maybe plugs (try NGK BRK6EK if you're using Bosch) or a weak coil. It's pretty common to see that with the turbo and SC cars but I wouldn't expect it on a normally aspirated M3. It's probably hurting your top end power a bit. Good luck, Matt --- Robert Liu <bob_a_liu@yahoo.com> wrote: > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:58:06 -0800 (PST) > From: Robert Liu <bob_a_liu@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 Cam timing > > Maybe I mistunderstood the issue with the valve > retainers. I thought they were more prone to break > when over-revved.. do they really cause valve float? > It seems odd to me. > > I had a chance to scan in my dyno charts over the > weekend. Maybe seeing the oscillations will make > more > sense. Unfortunately, I did not get the A/F ratios. > I > am in the process of building a DIY WB O2, so > hopefully I'll be able to datalog the A/F ratio next > time. > > M3 Dyno - Euro HFM > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/bob_a_liu/vwp2?.tok=bcuj.1OBipgcMtFr&.dir=/1995+M3&.dnm=Dyno+plot.jpg&.src=ph > > My other toy, 250 rwhp miata > Miata Dyno - 13 psi > http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/bob_a_liu/vwp2?.tok=bcKj.1OBTkUTDk6F&.dir=/Turbo+Miata&.dnm=Dyno.jpg&.src=ph > > Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com