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#1. RE: [E36M3] Coilover ??? - from Chester Wong
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:14:38 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Coilover ??? Everyone, Please keep in mind that a "coilover" kit is really no different than the stock suspension with the exception of ride height adjustment. The rear suspension setups of most "coilover" kits is not a coilover at all. If you were to put a spring on a shock and mount it back there, you'd break your rear shock towers in no time flat. True rear coilover kits have a disclaimer that you need a rollcage installed in order to distribute the load. The bottom line: the rear shock towers were not meant to support the weight of the car. The stock front suspension is "coilover" like, but just not height adjustable. I think when people are saying that a coilover kit is not streetable, they are talking about linear spring rates as some of the coilovers come that way. Yes, the H&R coilover kit includes progressive rate springs, so it's nice and comfy. Chester --- "Birkhead, Rob" <rbirkhead@bb.directv.com> wrote: > I have to disagree that C/O are not as comfortable for the street. I commute > over 100miles/day and have tried Dinan, H&R/bilstein, Koni DA C/O kit, and > finally a H&R c/o kit. The H&R was by far the most comfortable and very very > livable. Most people can't tell that the car is any different than stock. > Yes it is true that it runs progressive springs so it is not as nice in > stock form as a Koni DA kit on the track, but with some custom work to the > H&Rs it can really become an animal at the track and still remain a > wonderful street car as well. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
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#2. RE: [E36M3] Coilover ??? - from Bob Lenarcik
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:36:42 -0800 From: "Bob Lenarcik" <lenarcik@pacbell.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Coilover ??? I've got the H&R "coilover" package on my 97 M3 and had it corner balanced at Custom Alignment in Mt. View. The charge was $55 to set up of the scales and check the corner weight and $127.50 to make the adjustments. That's $182.50 and their shop rate is $85/hr. The cross weight came out to 50/50 on the nose. - Bob -----Original Message----- From: LoweSeaton@aol.com [mailto:LoweSeaton@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 10:26 AM To: E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] Coilover ??? Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:18:31 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] Coilover ??? If you can find a good BMW mechanic for $50/hour, please let us know. <g> Here in Dallas the going rate for good independent mechanics is $90/hour. 3 hours for a good corner balancing - cha ching! = $400+ And realistically, to do a GOOD corner balancing job is going to take 3+ hours. There is a well known mechanic in Dallas that many of us E36M3 owners frequent. We all complain about his high prices but he does good work. He charges $199 for a straight alignment on the M3. But when he is done, it is aligned prefectly. I agree for street use, you don't absolutely need to corner balance. But then my point becomes why buy a fully adjustable suspension and not use it? Lowell Seaton '95 M3
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#3. Shocks needed.... - from Mark Radelow
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:36:19 +0000 From: "Mark Radelow" <radelow@hotmail.com> Subject: Shocks needed.... Hi everyone. Replaced my stock springs yesterday and while we had the shocks out I noticed that they are getting close to needing replacement. I do not want to start the road of full race suspension that will loosen my fillings. SOOOO I was thinking of going with Koni double adjustables which I figure are slightly softer than the Bilsteins. Can anyone attest to this?? Does anyone have a used set of Koni's (either single or double adjustable) forsale? If I recall Chris Teague you were planning on selling yours? Still the plan? Any advice available would be great. Again, comfortable ride (similar or slightly stiffer than stock) is the key here. The installed springs are Eibach Pro-Kits. Mark Radelow 95 ///M3 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Shocks needed.... - from Chester Wong
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:48:49 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shocks needed.... FYI, the Koni built DAs are about 3 months around the corner. Of course, they'll be more expensive than SAs, but then again, the SAs will probably be cheaper too =) Chester --- Mark Radelow <radelow@hotmail.com> wrote: > Does anyone have a used set of Koni's (either single or double adjustable) > forsale? If I recall Chris Teague you were planning on selling yours? > Still the plan? Any advice available would be great. Again, comfortable > ride (similar or slightly stiffer than stock) is the key here. The > installed springs are Eibach Pro-Kits. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
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#5. [E36M3] Koni: The Loose Nut! - from twisty M3
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:55:42 -0800 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: [E36M3] Koni: The Loose Nut! Looks like January is the month of suspension talk. After an absolutely wonderful journey through the canyon roads of Ojai this weekend, I was on my way to work this morning and noticed a bit of rattling from the driver's side front corner. Turned out to be a lose nut on the top of my Koni s/a. The blue aluminum nut. Anyway, just wondering if A) this is something that becomes loose commonly and if B) this could have messed up my allignment at all. It looks okay from visual inspection and feels okay on the street, but I just want to be sure. Also, does anyone know if there's a recommended torque setting for that nut? I only hand-tightened it when I arrived at my office, but I'd like to get it locked down this evening, though it looks like it could be tough to get a socket over it the way it's alligned in the shock tower. Thanks! Jonathan L. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Koni: The Loose Nut! - from Chester Wong
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:21:19 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Koni: The Loose Nut! > Looks like January is the month of suspension talk. After an absolutely > wonderful journey through the canyon roads of Ojai this weekend, I was on my > way to work this morning and noticed a bit of rattling from the driver's > side front corner. Turned out to be a lose nut on the top of my Koni s/a. > The blue aluminum nut. > > Anyway, just wondering if A) this is something that becomes loose commonly > and if B) this could have messed up my allignment at all. It looks okay > from visual inspection and feels okay on the street, but I just want to be > sure. I believe it's 64 Nm, but that seems a bit low. I think the Koni instructions say 80 ft lbs. You'll probably need to jack up the corner, loosen the three nuts on top, push the strut down and then hit it from the top. Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Re: Underbody shields go byebye - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:50:56 -0600 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Underbody shields go byebye Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> wrote: > > on 1/13/02 12:55 PM, Reid Conti <reid@conti.net> wrote: > > From what I've heard, these aren't all that necessary, correct? And if I > > were to replace them, I'd probably have to worry about stripped screw > > holes? How much are the parts (both for the center and bolts, and just > > for giggles the center AND side pieces)? Worth doing? They lasted 56k > > miles... I'm in Seattle, so they're probably helpful in keeping my belt > > and other similar parts dry.. but hopefully moving to California soon.. > > My highly qualified aerodynamic consultant <g> tells me that the air > duct/shroud/excessive-speed-notification-by-dragging-on-the-ground-device > actually serves a purpose. It forces the air under the car instead of > allowing it to flow up into the engine bay where it stalls. This reduces > front end lift. May also help to keep crud off the accessory drive belts. Keeping the road debris off the engine bay/auxiliary belts are exactly the reasons I went shopping for an under-tray replacement when mine got ripped off. I could not tell any difference in performance/downforce with the shield missing. > For those of you who may be unconvinced by this explanation, ask yourselves > why BMW went to some considerable trouble and expense to install parts which > in normal use are totally invisible to the owner. The counter argument of that would be: if these parts are so important, why didn't BMW put on all E36s or at least put the same parts on the 4-door E36 M3s? What is rarely mentioned is that the undertray and the pork chops actually serve to tie together the front bumper, the brake air ducts and the wheel well liners. > Jeff "The Abels" <aAbel@austin.rr.com> added > > > Not exactly sure what the side-effect is of running without the underbody > > panel; I've been without since I bought the car > > Many BMW dealers have stopped installing replacement ducts because they just > come off again. The ducts are held snugly in place as long as the pork chops are in place and the wheel well liners are intact. > > When I get around to a replacement, I'll go with the JTD underpanel. > > I'd sell you mine. But the reason it isn't on the car any more is because I > was unimpressed with it's design and function. > Or you can follow my instructions, available on request, for making the > stock duct stay on the car. It'll cost you about $60 in tools and supplies, > plus whatever replacement BMW parts you may turn out to need. Neil has a very good point: even if you do go with the JTD underpanel (I did), it still pays to read his instructions and reinforce the various attachment points. Particularly on the wheel well liners. More on that later. alex f
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: Underbody shields go byebye - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:09:26 -0600 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Underbody shields go byebye Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> wrote: > > on 1/14/02 12:15 PM, "The Abels" <aAbel@austin.rr.com> wrote: > > >> I'd sell you mine. But the reason it isn't on the car any more is because I > >> was unimpressed with it's design and function. > >>Neil 96 M3 > > > So, what are the particular issues with the JTD piece? > > I installed and used the JTD underpanel for a while. Here's what I don't > like about it: FWIW, I went through a similar PITA last fall and after trying a combination of solutions ended up using the JTD panel without pork chops and with reinforced attachment points like Neil recommends. I actually like the JTD panel, but if you are in the habit of killing autoX cones at a decent rate of speed you will still be ripping your plastic wheel well liners even with the JTD panel and/or pork chops installed. > 1) Didn't fit my car well, making installation difficult. I had to redrill > some of its mounting holes. (Some other people have had better luck.) I did not have any fitment issues with the JTD underpanel. I did end up drilling a few extra attachment points in the front apron lip to really keep the JTD panel in place. > 2) Not designed to mount or integrate with the factory porkchops - although > it could have been. (There's a somewhat problematic modification that can be > done to the porkchops to allow them to be used.) You do NOT need the pork chops with the JTD panel installed! Pork chops are evil: they are the first thing to come in contact with the parking curbs and when they do they inevitably destroy the wheel well liners. I found that to be the case after installing the pork chops in conjunction with the JTD panel. My solution was applying Neil's attachment point reinforcement philosophy to the wheel liners. JTD panel has side extensions that go all the way out to the wheel well attachment points to keep the liner firmly in place. > 3) The JTD underpanel flexed and clanged annoyingly against the radiator. JTD panel comes with a padded 'L' shaped aluminum plate that fits snugly in place between the panel and the bottom of the radiator. JTD panel does not flex on my car. > on 1/14/02 12:15 PM, "JUSTIN GERRY" <JGERRY@butchers.com> wrote: > > > I *think* BMW actually has a new design for the plastic mounts that go > > into the frame rail. The P/Ns have changed and the new mounts do not > > seem to be as susceptible to cracking like the old ones. I am not 100% I > > bought the right ones but they seem to be a bit stronger. I can get the > > P/N if you are interested. > > Trouble is that the shroud just exerts too much leverage on the mounts, and > furthermore the mounting area on the shroud itself is flimsy and easily > torn. No matter how strong you make the chassis anchor points, that won't > stop the shroud itself from tearing. I've seen a bunch of dislodged shrouds > at the track, and they typically are torn at the mounts. Amen brother. > The secret is to add additional mounts elsewhere on the shroud in order to > spread the load. I've figured out one way to do this that works and is > practical, but of course there can be many other solutions. Based on my sample size of one, I would suggest that even if you go with the JTD panel you should reinforce its attachment points to all plastic pieces on your M3 nose. Either than or keep a few spare pork chops and wheel well liners in your garage as you will continue to tear them apart with the JTD panel or the OEM tray. alex f '95 M3 with reinforced JTD panel.
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#9. Re: Underbody shields go byebye - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:28:01 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Underbody shields go byebye on 1/14/02 4:50 PM, alex.fadeev@verizon.com at alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: > Keeping the road debris off the engine bay/auxiliary belts are exactly the > reasons I went shopping for an under-tray replacement when mine got ripped > off. I could not tell any difference in performance/downforce with the > shield missing. I couldn't either. But without doing some kind of organized back-to-back testing, I don't think I'd expect to. >> For those of you who may be unconvinced by this explanation, ask yourselves >> why BMW went to some considerable trouble and expense to install parts which >> in normal use are totally invisible to the owner. > The counter argument of that would be: if these parts are so important, why > didn't BMW put on all E36s or at least put the same parts on the 4-door E36 > M3s? For the same reason they didn't put an M engine in all E36 cars. > What is rarely mentioned is that the undertray and the pork chops actually > serve to tie together the front bumper, the brake air ducts and the wheel > well liners. The porkchops do tie the wheel arch liners to the bumper, but unfortunately the shroud itself isn't a fixed part of that assembly - it just slots into the pork chops. It would be a better design if that were so. >> Many BMW dealers have stopped installing replacement ducts because they just >> come off again. Sorry; by "duct" in this case I meant the shroud, not the brake ducts. I think that's what Jeff meant too, but I don't have his original message handy to check. Various people refer to this piece as the air duct, shroud, or undertray. Or just that #@%!* part that keeps coming off. > The ducts are held snugly in place as long as the pork chops are in place > and the wheel well liners are intact. Yes, since you're referring to the brake ducts. And you make a good point: once the pork chop mounting points on the wheel arch liners get torn, then the brake ducts aren't held in place properly either. > Neil has a very good point: even if you do go with the JTD underpanel (I > did), it still pays to read his instructions and reinforce the various > attachment points. Particularly on the wheel well liners. More on that > later. I've cut 20 gauge aluminum sheet into reinforcing strips and pop-riveted them to the wheel arch liner mounting areas. Then I installed Nutserts to replace the original flimsy Tinnerman clips, so that the porkchops are now secured by 5mm machine screws instead of self-tapping screws. This was a last winter project. So far so good... Neil 96 M3
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#10. Plastic Undertray - a Simple Fix - from peter@guagenti.com
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:35:35 US/Pacific From: peter@guagenti.com Subject: Plastic Undertray - a Simple Fix Being that we're back on a favorite subject of mine, I thought I'd chime in. I regularly kill cones at autocrosses, so I have gone through quite a few of these trays in the past. That is, until I found a relatively simple fix -- Racer's Tape (aka, Black Duct Tape). The last time I replaced the tray materials, I taped the hell out of _every_ seam in the undertray. I started off with one srip of tape over the seam, and then a strip on either side of the first one to hold it in place. I haven't had to replace it since. If you scrape your front end a lot, you need to jack the car up and replace some of it as it wears (I do it during oil changes), but it greatly lengthens the amount of time it all lasts. I would hypothesize that this is actually two things: - there's no high-speed turbulence at each of the seams attempting to pull apart the pieces that are bolted together (keeping the mounting points in better condition) - when there is an impact, it doesn't immediately pull the two pieces apart as the tape holds it together better. You still have to deal with impacts that crack a piece, but if you inspect it when you do oil changes, you can tape up small cracks before they become big ones. And needless to say, this still doesn't save you from completely bone headed things like driving over stuff that rips it apart -- wood, car parts, etc. -- but at that point I'd be more worried about my oil pan. Before you rip into BMW about the materials, take a look at some high end cars out there that do little to nothing to the underside aerodynamics of their cars. Ever watch an S2000's rear bumper cover flex from turbulence behind the rear wheel? I have. This stuff is relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things and, for the most part, Joe Consumer who uses their E36 for less "active" automotive pursuits never breaks this stuff (we've had the same undertray on the wife's E36 for over 3 years). Then again, they rarely rip out their sub frames or punch a hole in their shock towers either. ;-) -peterg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. http://www.hispeed.com