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#1. Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts - from Chester Wong
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 07:50:33 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts > Rear Camber -2,00' (+/-0,30') -2,01'L -2,10'R > Rear Toe (Total of both) +0,30' (+/-0,05') +0,31' > Geometrical Driving Axis +0,00' (+/-0,03') -0,01' (not adjusted) > > Front Castor +6,58' (+/-0,30') +7,54'L +7,52'R > (not adjusted) > Front Camber -2,00' (+/-0,30') -1,05'L -0,56'R > (further adj unavailable?) > Front Toe (Total of both) +0,10' (+/-0,05') +0,10' > Kingpin Inclination N / A ( N / A ) +14,33'L +14,21'R > (n / a) > > Any and all comments or suggestions on this setup or how it will perform > will be appreciated (otherwise I might have to blame the S-03s in > combination with my own sedated state generated by a previously tired > suspension for what feels like a bit of tramlining). For some reason, I > thought I would be getting some more negative camber on the front with > the TCK Streetline? It looks to me that I will either have to buy some > further adjustment capability, or live with an extra degree of positive > front castor and a degree less of negative front camber. Is there a > general direction these settings tend to 'leak' towards over time? Were these readings with you (or an appropriate ballast) in the car or not? The difference between the left and right camber will balance itself more when you get in the car. The right wheel will tilt in more and the left one will go more upright. If you want to dial in a bit more negative camber, there are a few tricks: - The kingpin is held to the strut by two bolts on the bottom of the kingpin and a bolt that through the top. If you loosen top and bottom two bolts, you might be able to push the top of the kingpin in a bit more and then tighten everything. - Camber shims, what some have suggested, would get placed between the kingpin and the strut on the bottom two bolts to effectively tilt in the kingpin. - '95M3 bearing hats are not offset so if you have a '96+ M3 (they are offset outwards), you can use these to dial in about -.5 degree camber. - If you want much more, swap bearing hats from left to right - Camber plates. Of course, this list was from "just a little more" to "a whole lotta more" and "virtually free" to "break out the piggy bank". New BMW OE bearing hats are $85 a pop...contact me if you're interested. Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts - from The Buch
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Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:59:30 -0800 From: The Buch <the_buch@telus.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts This is what I thought too, but there is no visible lowering of the car at all. In fact with these results, it would be reasonable to suspect that the car is actually higher. Perhaps it really had sagged over the last three years, but even then I should end up with more negative camber than stock spec?? If I switch the hats over, I wonder what happens to the other settings, including castor?? Regards, Doug LoweSeaton@aol.com wrote: > Doug, > > I think you have very curious alignment results. You should have more > negative front camber than stock. If you lower the front, you get more > negative camber. The TCK Streetline kit uses the H&R O.E. springs, right? > They won't lower your front much, maybe 0.5", but still it should be a little > lower and therefore more negative camber. > > I think -1 degree of camber is too little for the M3. It is fine for > straight line driving but you will loose a little grip on the corners. > Camber is not adjustable by much on the front. About you only option would > be to swap the strut hats left <--> right. That would probably gain you 1.5 > to 2.0 degrees of camber. Or about -2.5 degrees with your current alignment. > > Lowell Seaton > '95 M3 > Dallas, Texas
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts - from Chester Wong
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:04:36 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts Caster will remain unchanged as the struts will remain on the same line (front to back of the car). I noticed my front raised after installing the H&R OE sport spring in the back while leaving the stock spring =) This was due to the back being lowered which caused the front to lift a bit. I now have H&R OE Sport springs all around and I notice a slight pogo feeling. I will dial in a bit more stiffness in the rebound to see if the pogo feeling will go away. Chester --- The Buch <the_buch@telus.net> wrote: > This is what I thought too, but there is no visible lowering of the car at > all. > In fact with these results, it would be reasonable to suspect that the car is > actually higher. Perhaps it really had sagged over the last three years, but > even then I should end up with more negative camber than stock spec?? If I > switch the hats over, I wonder what happens to the other settings, including > castor?? ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts - from LoweSeaton@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:11:39 EST From: LoweSeaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts Caster will not change when swapping hats. Toe out will change a bunch. You have toe IN now. Increasing negative camber will toe the wheels out. Very much camber change and you will end up with too much toe OUT and you car will really be a handful to drive straight. As Jeff suggested, you could add some shims fairly easily and cheap. Swapping hats is cheap in parts but the labor will be costly. Chester makes a good point too about whether or not the car is ballasted when doing the alignment. If your "spec" alignment figures are for a ballasted car, then you will have to redo your alignment with ballast to ensure you are comparing the right figures. Good luck! Lowell Seaton '95 M3
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#5. Re: B pillar clunking - from Michael Kelley
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:08:21 -0800 From: "Michael Kelley" <mkelley@nc.rr.com> Subject: Re: B pillar clunking >There's not much that fits the 'Annoying' category better than >an unseen 'clunking' sound which you hear only when going >over certain kinds of bumpy pavement, which you cant >locate! Its driving me = nuts... >The location 'appears' to be the Driver's side B Pillar. I had >my seatbelt reel replaced, thinking that was the source, and >right after replacment, it did disappear, only to come back 2 >days later =20 Paul, just a wild guess since I' don't think I've experienced what you're hearing inside my car but I have had a driver side clunking........just after installing my H&R coilovers. Seems that lowering the car brought the muffler on my Supersprint catback too = close to the left rear shock body, just above the lower shock mount point. I tried all sorts of BFH'ing and forming of the muffler mounting rods and hangars but could not fix it. Finally removed the catback, took it to a muffler shop and had them add enough bend into each exhaust pipe to = move each pipe about one inch left. The net is that Supersprint has made the two pipes too straight and this pulls everything, including the 4 cat converters/pipes, to the left. With a slight radius bend in the catback pipes everything settles back to center and no more clanging. HTH Mike 98M3C
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#6. Fikse FM5 (5 spoke) 17x8.5 inch weights - from Marc.S.Edwards@QuestDiagnostics.com
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:14:48 -0800 From: Marc.S.Edwards@QuestDiagnostics.com Subject: Fikse FM5 (5 spoke) 17x8.5 inch weights I sent this to the list probably 2 years ago. I have seen 5 spoke wheels labeled as Dinan that look identical to these wheels from Fikse. These were weighed on a scale used for UPS shipping at one of those mail boxes etc. places. I took a quick break from work today to weigh a Fikse rim for fun. These Fikse FM-5s look great with the satin anodized finish to make the 5 spokes easier to clean. Specs: Fikse FM-5 in 17x8.5 " size (37.7 mm offset) with chrome/steel valve stem inserted and Fikse center cap. Weight: 20.25 pounds Weight with the 5 Fikse-supplied lug bolts for this rim: 21.15 pounds 5 Fikse-supplied lug bolts alone: 0.90 pounds Thanks, Marc Edwards 95M3CSL
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#7. RE: [E36M3] Finally the Facts (long detailed reply) - from Mel Silva
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:36:09 -0600 From: "Mel Silva" <melsilva@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Finally the Facts (long detailed reply) The point of ballast in the car is well taken. Having performed this alignment on my own M3 twice now (the slide plates were screwed up the first time resulting in a very strange alignment), I will relay what I know about from actually doing this job. The Hunter ID9 Optical Alignment system requires the following ballast: Front seats: 150 lbs on each side trunk: 30 lbs Fuel tank: Full These are the "specs" as suggested by the Hunter database (all measurements are in decimal degrees and positive unless noted otherwise) Doug's measurements converted to decimal by formula (min/60 = decimal degrees) Front: ------ My Actual: Doug's Actual: Hunter Specs Left: Right: Left: Right: Beissbarth ML4000 ------------------------------- ----- ------ ----- ------ ----------------- Camber: -1.3 -0.3 -1.0 -0.6 -1.08 -0.93 -1.5 <---> -2.5 Caster: 7.1 <---> 8.1 7.4 7.1 7.9 7.9 6.47 <---> 7.47 Toe: 0.13 <---> 0.21 0.13 0.16 no data provided no data provided Cross Camber: -0.5 <---> -0.4 -0.15 (calculated) no data provided Cross Caster: -0.5 <---> 0.5 0.2 0.02 (calculated) no data provided Total Toe: 0.25 <---> 0.42 0.32 0.16 0.09 <---> 0.25 Rear: ----- My Actual: Doug's Actual: Hunter Specs Left: Right: Left: Right: Beissbarth ML4000 ------------------------------- ----- ------ ----- ------ ----------------- Camber: -1.9 1.6 -1.8 -1.9 -2.0 -2.2 -1.5 <---> -2.5 Toe: 0.13 <---> 0.21 0.17 0.18 no data provided no data provided Total Toe: 0.25 <---> 0.42 0.35 0.52 0.42 <---> 0.58 Thrust Angle: -0.05 <---> 0.05 0.00 0.02 -0.05 <---> 0.05 Conclusions: ------------ While I do purport to be an expert in alignment machines, I have used other Beissbarth equipment (tire balancing machine) and I did not like it. It just seemed "clunky" to me, as in without precision. Be that as it may, you can see from the chart above that there are a couple of differences in the specs from both machines. I am assuming that these are your "sport suspension" settings given that they are mostly increased camber settings. You can also see that your caster settings are within the Hunter spec, however no "cross camber" data was available. It is my moderately educated opinion that you have too much "toe out" in the rear which can cause the car to feel skittish at speed while going straight and too little "toe out" in the front. Personally, I think your caster is fine. You are within the spec of a stock M3 and have more caster than the sport suspension spec. Carroll Smith (Tune to Win pg.137) writes with regard to "castor" as he spells it; "Not enough leads to very light steering, insufficient self return action and straight line instability. Too much makes the steering heavy, gives excessive wheel camber while steering and makes the steering response slow. Getting the castor even from left to right is more important than getting it exact." You can see from the table above that I have a bigger problem than you and my car does tend to veer right at highway speed. Of course, you need to make your own conclusions because you are the one that needs to be happy with how your car drives. I hope this actually helps and doesn't muddy the waters further. YMMV, Mel 97 M3/4 Byzanz (now up to 23K miles) -----Original Message----- From: The Buch [mailto:the_buch@telus.net] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:57 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Finally the Facts
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts - from The Buch
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Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 09:57:40 -0800 From: The Buch <the_buch@telus.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Finally the Facts I noticed a 1/2" drop in the back when I put in the E46 RSMs, but no noticeable difference with the later addition of the H&R OEs. I am presently running 40% stiff in the back and just half a turn up from full soft in the front. It will be interesting to compare notes as we settle in on a good setting for the fronts. My usual drive is a mix of city and highway. Regards, Doug Chester Wong wrote: > Caster will remain unchanged as the struts will remain on the same line (front > to back of the car). I noticed my front raised after installing the H&R OE > sport spring in the back while leaving the stock spring =) This was due to the > back being lowered which caused the front to lift a bit. I now have H&R OE > Sport springs all around and I notice a slight pogo feeling. I will dial in a > bit more stiffness in the rebound to see if the pogo feeling will go away. > > Chester > > --- The Buch <the_buch@telus.net> wrote: > > This is what I thought too, but there is no visible lowering of the car at > > all. > > In fact with these results, it would be reasonable to suspect that the car is > > actually higher. Perhaps it really had sagged over the last three years, but > > even then I should end up with more negative camber than stock spec?? If I > > switch the hats over, I wonder what happens to the other settings, including > > castor?? > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > http://greetings.yahoo.com
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#9. Re: B pillar clunking - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:49:32 -0500 From: "Paul Elliott" <elliott.paul@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: B pillar clunking HI Michael, Thanks for the feedback...But in my case, its very clearly INSIDE the cabin, in the vicinity of the C pillar...I think Ive decided the annoyance is a bit further back than the B pillar...Ive taken off the C pillar cover completely (the one with the little plastic light in it), and its still there...But thats the area...IT sounds like something is loose, and swinging, and when I hit the broken pavement, it will make 1 or, if the bump is the right shape, 2 short clinks like a piece of small metal swinging against another piece of metal...It sounds exactly like the seatbelt sounds when you tug on it hard...Only slightly higher in pitch. Its such a pain...I just need to stick someone in back, as Im sure theyll be able to localize it for me..Either that, or stick the dealer service writer there and let him hear it first hand. Ive had muffler clunks before, and its pretty easy to tell those clunks that arise from the chassis or exhaust, vs those right there in the cabin with you.....but it doesnt necessarily make it any easier to find.. Paul Elliott --------------------------------------------------------- '99 White M3; < 40K miles; Dinan stage II SC kit with 6" RMS crank pulley: 11 psi; AA Water Injection; Rotex pads;X-Brace; Dinan Koni Suspension; Stygar SS and Clutch Stop; Sound by Polk, Excelon, JLAudio ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Kelley To: E36M3 ; elliott.paul@worldnet.att.net Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 4:08 PM Subject: Re: B pillar clunking >There's not much that fits the 'Annoying' category better than >an unseen 'clunking' sound which you hear only when going >over certain kinds of bumpy pavement, which you cant >locate! Its driving me nuts... >The location 'appears' to be the Driver's side B Pillar. I had >my seatbelt reel replaced, thinking that was the source, and >right after replacment, it did disappear, only to come back 2 >days later Paul, just a wild guess since I' don't think I've experienced what you're hearing inside my car but I have had a driver side clunking........just after installing my H&R coilovers. Seems that lowering the car brought the muffler on my Supersprint catback too close to the left rear shock body, just above the lower shock mount point. I tried all sorts of BFH'ing and forming of the muffler mounting rods and hangars but could not fix it. Finally removed the catback, took it to a muffler shop and had them add enough bend into each exhaust pipe to move each pipe about one inch left. The net is that Supersprint has made the two pipes too straight and this pulls everything, including the 4 cat converters/pipes, to the left. With a slight radius bend in the catback pipes everything settles back to center and no more clanging. HTH Mike 98M3C
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Finally the Facts (long detailed reply) - from Mel Silva
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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:49:36 -0600 From: "Mel Silva" <melsilva@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Finally the Facts (long detailed reply) Okay so that didn't work. I had this all nice in ASCII but the email looks like horse droppings. I posted the text file at www.geocities.com/melsilva/ click on alignment. Mel -----Original Message----- From: Mel Silva [mailto:melsilva@mindspring.com] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 12:37 PM To: E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] Finally the Facts (long detailed reply)