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#1. Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? - from peter@guagenti.com
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:59:31 US/Pacific From: peter@guagenti.com Subject: Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? I am one of those people that seems to be perpetually warping my rotors. I've owned my car for only a couple of years and have warped 3 sets of rotors, my latest victim being a set of brembos that are only a few months old. I warped my first pair (LTW rotors) on track. The second pair (US rotors) were also warped after a long weekend at ThunderHill. The third (Drilled/Slotted Brembos) were done from hard street driving. The question I have to ask is, what am I doing wrong? I remember a great thread a couple of years ago about improving your braking technique to minimize this, but I wasn't paying attention to it (I wasn't pushing the car hard enough to warp anything). Can anyone provide a summary of this? If it's potentially an equipment issue, can anyone recommend how I can resolve it? I'm not racing, so I'm doubtful whether I've earned the need for brake ducts. What do other folks think? Jim -- you've driven with me, what do you think? To further complicate matters, the brakes have felt pretty soft lately. Flushing the fluid completely (ATE Blue) and bleeding at the calipers hasn't really resolved that. I think I may be using more pressure than necessary due to this lack of feel. Any advice is appreciated. -peterg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. http://www.hispeed.com
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#2. Re: E36 M3 to M Coupe suspension swap - from Neil Maller
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:20:30 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: E36 M3 to M Coupe suspension swap on 2/22/02 4:17 PM, "Luis Rueda" <Luis_Rueda@Interliant.com> wrote: > Would the front strut assembly (Bilsteins/H&R) form a '95 M3 > fit on a '99 M coupe (I'm aware that the rear will not) & would > the oem front suspension of the M Coupe fit into the M3? > Luis BMWCCA member > '99 M Coupe > '95 M3 Beats me. But judging from your sig you're in a great position to find out and let us know. ;) Neil 96 M3 with M3 suspension
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? - from The Abels
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:18:48 -0600 From: "The Abels" <aAbel@austin.rr.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? According to some, there is no such thing as warped rotors, but rather, uneven deposition of transfer compound on the rotors. http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm Jeff 97 M3/4 ----- Original Message ----- From: <peter@guagenti.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? > Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:59:31 US/Pacific > From: peter@guagenti.com > Subject: Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? > > I am one of those people that seems to be perpetually warping my rotors. I've > owned my car for only a couple of years and have warped 3 sets of rotors, my > latest victim being a set of brembos that are only a few months old. > > I warped my first pair (LTW rotors) on track. The second pair (US rotors) were > also warped after a long weekend at ThunderHill. The third (Drilled/Slotted > Brembos) were done from hard street driving. > > The question I have to ask is, what am I doing wrong? > > I remember a great thread a couple of years ago about improving your braking > technique to minimize this, but I wasn't paying attention to it (I wasn't > pushing the car hard enough to warp anything). Can anyone provide a summary of > this? > > If it's potentially an equipment issue, can anyone recommend how I can resolve > it? I'm not racing, so I'm doubtful whether I've earned the need for brake > ducts. What do other folks think? Jim -- you've driven with me, what do you > think? > > To further complicate matters, the brakes have felt pretty soft lately. > Flushing the fluid completely (ATE Blue) and bleeding at the calipers hasn't > really resolved that. I think I may be using more pressure than necessary due > to this lack of feel. > > Any advice is appreciated. > > -peterg > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- > This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. > http://www.hispeed.com > > > > ************************************************************* > List Commands > UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. > GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). > > To issue a command/request to the server: > Send a message with the command you wish executed as the > subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. > ************************************************************* > >
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#4. RE: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? - from jim.bassett@alloptic.com
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:20:20 -0800 From: jim.bassett@alloptic.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? > The question I have to ask is, what am I doing wrong? > > I remember a great thread a couple of years ago about > improving your braking > technique to minimize this, but I wasn't paying attention to > it (I wasn't > pushing the car hard enough to warp anything). Can anyone > provide a summary of > this? I believe I have the original posts saved at home. I can forward them to you on Monday. > If it's potentially an equipment issue, can anyone recommend > how I can resolve > it? I'm not racing, so I'm doubtful whether I've earned the > need for brake > ducts. What do other folks think? Jim -- you've driven with > me, what do you > think? Well, we drove in a Group 1&2 session so we weren't going all that fast, and it was more than a week ago so I don't remember particulars :-) I don't recall there being a major issue with your technique. But probably at this point, it's the minor issues that you have to work on. From my own personal experience, I totally dislike drilled rotors. I hate the "cheese-grater" feel, and having cracked the fronts on the E30 M3 at Laguna, I will NEVER use another set of drilled rotors (unless someone else is paying for them - fat chance :-)). Slotting is OK. I used ATE Power slots on the previous 328is and liked them, and the brakes on the race car are slotted. On the M3, plain ol' Brembos work just fine. Still will warp on occasion, especially as they get thinner; the M3 was not ducted. So, are you signed up for THill? Jim Bassett
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? - from Mark Radelow
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:22:52 +0000 From: "Mark Radelow" <radelow@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? We had a guy down here in San Diego that was warping rotors at the same pace as you. The only thing we found that he was doing different was running aftermarket pads on front and stock pads on the rear. The theory was that because the effectiveness of the rear pads was less than the front the fronts were doing more work overall and thus warping the rotors. Just an idea... Mark From: peter@guagenti.com Reply-To: peter@guagenti.com To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Subject: [E36M3] Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:07:57 -0600 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:59:31 US/Pacific From: peter@guagenti.com Subject: Warped Rotors -- Improving the situation? I am one of those people that seems to be perpetually warping my rotors. I've owned my car for only a couple of years and have warped 3 sets of rotors, my latest victim being a set of brembos that are only a few months old. I warped my first pair (LTW rotors) on track. The second pair (US rotors) were also warped after a long weekend at ThunderHill. The third (Drilled/Slotted Brembos) were done from hard street driving. The question I have to ask is, what am I doing wrong? I remember a great thread a couple of years ago about improving your braking technique to minimize this, but I wasn't paying attention to it (I wasn't pushing the car hard enough to warp anything). Can anyone provide a summary of this? If it's potentially an equipment issue, can anyone recommend how I can resolve it? I'm not racing, so I'm doubtful whether I've earned the need for brake ducts. What do other folks think? Jim -- you've driven with me, what do you think? To further complicate matters, the brakes have felt pretty soft lately. Flushing the fluid completely (ATE Blue) and bleeding at the calipers hasn't really resolved that. I think I may be using more pressure than necessary due to this lack of feel. Any advice is appreciated. -peterg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. http://www.hispeed.com ************************************************************* List Commands UNSUBSCRIBE - (in subject line) unsubscribes you from the mailing list. DIR - sends a listing of files available in the list's GET directory. GET filename1.ext,filename2.ext - sends the requested file(s). To issue a command/request to the server: Send a message with the command you wish executed as the subject of the message to the email address e36m3@bmw-m.net. ************************************************************* _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
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#6. Fwd: Answered my own question (re: brake technique) - from peter@guagenti.com
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:37:44 US/Pacific From: peter@guagenti.com Subject: Fwd: Answered my own question (re: brake technique) Found this with some digging through the digest. Worth a re-read, or re-post for those who are new to the list (was this really two years ago?) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > #9. Braking Technique - from Michael LordTopDate: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 00:20:45 - > 0800 > From: "Michael Lord" <michaellord@uswest.net> > Subject: Braking Technique > > Well the warped rotor thread is up and running again so I thought I1d drop a > line or two (or three or four) on the subject of good braking technique as > I understand it. This is a slight updating of a posting I did a few months > back. I saved it because it is a cyclical topic on the list. Hope it > helps! > > I am assuming everyone knows how to do a decent cool down lap but just in > case I1ll make this point. Do the cool down lap at a speed that allows you > to make it all the way around the track without using your brakes at all. > This means you do not accelerate out of turns and coast into braking zones > well in advance of the brake zone itself. Sometimes, if I have been running > really hard, I will supplement this by driving around a bit after exiting > the track. Also, it is useful to roll the car forward after it has sat for > a few minutes so as to allow that part of the rotor which was under the pad > to cool at the same rate as the rest of the rotor. > > Given that your cool down lap is correct the next issue is braking > technique. The theory is to stay on the brakes the least amount of time as > possible to get the job done. The following are some common mistakes people > make when braking. > > In one scenario the brakes are applied too early and /or not hard enough at > the top of the braking zone. The most obvious downfall of light early > braking is that the brakes are simply being applied longer. The longer the > brakes are on the hotter they get and the less time they have to cool down. > The hotter they get, the less prone they are to actually stop the car (fade) > so they will need to be on longer to get the job done, etc. And of course, > the hotter they get the more prone to warping rotors they are. Another > negative of this approach is that the driver, in an effort to slow down in > time for turn in, generally applies more and more pressure as they near the > turn-in zone, sometimes even getting on and off the brakes several times > within a given brake zone. This is exactly the opposite of what is needed. > This not only unsettles the car throughout the braking zone and increases > stopping distances, but often the driver will be transitioning back to gas > from full braking thereby further upsetting the balance of the car at a > crucial moment. > > Many people confuse the term 3squeezing2 on the brakes (as opposed to > hammering them) to mean that they should take several seconds (usually the > entire length of the brake zone) to reach threshold, if indeed they ever do > reach threshold. This is not so. Squeezing on the brakes takes about a > second. In other words, apply your brakes as fast as you can while still > keeping the car planted and stable. This takes practice and finesse. The > idea here is to get on them hard at the top of the brake zone and taper off > as you near turn in. This has the added benefit of allowing smooth > transition back to gas which will keep the car balanced. > > Repeat after me. Smooth = fast. Smooth = fast. Smooth = fast. Don't do > anything in a car any faster than you can do it smoothly or you will never > be fast! If you mess it up, SLOW DOWN and get it right the next time. > > In another scenario perhaps brakes are applied hard enough but too early so > that the car is slowed down with a great deal of distance still left before > turn in. What often happens then is that the driver, instead of getting on > the gas (and adjusting the breaking zone next time around), will "coast" > with the brakes lightly on even though brakes are no longer required. > Again, as in the above case, longer braking distance = more time on the > brakes = hotter brakes = warped rotors. > > IMO however, the leading cause of warped rotors is an over reliance on ABS. > While ABS is a useful tool your brakes will definitely run hotter if you > rely on it for all your threshold braking needs, or for that matter, all > your braking needs period. Drivers will often rely on ABS for the entire > distance of the braking zone. In my experience and observation, if ABS is > constantly invoked you will not only greatly increase the risk of warped > rotors but you will boil your brake fluid and use up your pads very quickly > as well. Cars with warped rotors, boiled fluid and no pads do not turn good > lap times. For that matter, they don1t even necessarily stay on the track. > > > If you learn to do your own threshold braking you will run considerably > cooler without making much difference in stopping distances. If you are > really dicing it up with someone and need that extra 10-15 feet of late > braking then go for it. But, IMO, don't use ABS every time on every corner > of every lap. And don1t brake so that you have ABS engaged throughout the > entire brake zone. If I have done a couple of hot laps where ABS has seen > some use I will generally back off a tick for the next lap or two and let > things cool down a bit. > > By learning how to do my own threshold braking I have become a much smoother > driver (Smooth = fast, Smooth = fast) with a better feel for the car. This > has helped my lap times considerably. When I was first learning all of this > I would constantly warp rotors. Back then my lap times at SIR were around > 1:55. This is pretty slow. My lap times now are consistently around > 1:40-1:42, give or take a second. While this is still 1 or 2 seconds off > the fastest M3 drivers in the area it is still respectable and guess what! > I don1t warp rotors. For that matter neither do Hugh Golden, Brian Horne or > James Shaiman. And these people kick my ass all day long at SIR. > > Opinions differ widely on the topic of ABS at the track (this topic was > discussed in depth earlier this year on the list). Keep in mind that race > cars such as the PTG M3s have HUGE brakes and, it is my understanding, a > much more complex ABS system than what we have on our street cars. The ABS > systems on our street cars are not designed for this kind of use. What I am > trying to do here is show you how you can save your brakes, still be plenty > fast, and have a good time at a lapping day or track school in a street car. > > > So to review, let1s look at what I consider ideal braking technique for > lapping day drivers. As we approach a corner we squeeze on the brakes all > the way to threshold. As stated, this will take around a second. If you > must use ABS use it in the early stages of braking and then back off to the > point just before ABS. Continue to trail off the brakes, keeping the car > settled as you downshift approaching turn-in. This also means linear > application on and off the brakes. Try not to pump the brakes. Try to > gauge your braking distances so that getting on the brakes and back off > again is one smooth motion. This allows a smooth transition to gas just > before turn-in. If you have done this right all this will happen so that > when you are done braking and shifting and have transitioned back to gas you > are also ready for turn-in with a nicely settled car. > > One last item to add to this. *Do not* downshift until you are slowed down > enough to smoothly match revs. Never use the transmission to slow the car > down on the track. Never, never, never, never! At best this will unsettle > your car. At worst it can cause your back end to come around and/or can > blow up your engine. > > I view braking, downshifting, back to gas and turn in as one step. > Generally you don't want to be on the brakes even one half second more than > necessary. I am assuming heel toe down shifting here and I am not talking > about trail braking into a turn. While this is a useful and necessary > technique to master for racing it is beyond the scope of what I am presently > trying to communicate. I am talking about straight line braking. > > Finally, stock brake pads run hotter than track pads. This will boil your > brake fluid and cause them to gas off more readily. Gassing off occurs when > the binding materials used in brake pads get so hot they turn into gas. > This gas emits from the pads and forms a barrier between your pads and > rotors. This gassing will cause brake fade. When your brakes fade you will > need to be on your brakes harder and longer which will cause your fluid to > boil and your pads to gas off and your rotors to warp and your pads to > disappear etc. etc. It1s a vicious cycle. This is what drilled or slotted > rotors are designed to deal with, by providing an escape route for these > gasses. If, after your first few schools, you remain serious about tracking > your car invest in some track pads and some high temp. fluid. If you don1t > want to make this investment then accept that you will need to slow down if > you want to save your brakes. > > In my set up I use the Euro Motorsport rotors. While these rotors are not > unwarpable you have really got to work at it to do so. One huge advantage > of these rotors is that they run cooler than stock or Brembo rotors thereby > promoting fade-free braking. As an added bonus, they are also lighter than > stock rotors thus reducing unsprung weight. If you are already using > Motorsport rotors and warping them you need to take a serious look at your > braking technique. Sorry, but that1s the truth. Yes, I have warped these > rotors and I learned from that and now I don1t warp rotors. Even on tracks > such as Bremerton, which is notoriously hard on brakes. Simple as that. > For pads I like the PF90s. I have used the R4s (not to be confused with the > R4S), which are also good but not as good as the PF90s IMO (they run > hotter). People also like Padgid1s and Hawk brand pads. Again, this is > just my opinion. Take it or leave it. I flush with ATE Super Blue every > other track event and I use SS brake lines to help maintain pedal feel as > the brakes heat up. > > A word here about drilled rotors. Don1t use em. They crack and have > actually been known to disintegrate at the track. Porsche rotors, like you > would find in Steve D1s big brake kits are an exception to this. These > rotors are not drilled. Rather, the holes are part of the casting process, > and as such are not prone to this sort of failure. However, unless you want > to go to this expense, slotted rotors are a good choice. Slotted rotors > will not work with PF90 pads however. This is because PF90 pads do not have > anti-rattle piston clips and will judder like hell over the slots when the > brakes are applied. In this application I recommend the R41s. An added > bonus of slotted rotors are that they are great in the rain as they give > built up water an immediate escape route when the brakes are applied. > > Finally, a word about bedding new pads on new rotors. New rotors need about > 100 miles or so of break-in before taking them to the track. The reason for > this is that they need to become uniformly impregnated with pad material or > they will feel as if they are warped (not exactly the same but very > similar). Until they are uniformly impregnated some spots on the rotor will > be stickier than others. This is what causes the vibration. It will > eventually go away. There are occasions where it has not been possible to > do the 100 mile break-in. If this is the case I just ignore the vibration > and in most cases it goes away by the end of the third session of the day. > > These are the things that work for me. There is always room for improvement > and I am no exception. I am still working on consistency. I1m not real > interested in arguing with anyone as to the merits or failures of my > approach. If you can use this info, Great! If not, Great! I do welcome > tweaks, additional information and questions if I have not made myself > understood to someone. > > Cheers! > > Michael Lord > Seattle > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- > This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. > http://www.hispeed.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. http://www.hispeed.com
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#7. How does central locking work - from Michael Schaublin
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:41:45 -0500 From: "Michael Schaublin" <mike_schaublin@hotmail.com> Subject: How does central locking work <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>Should unlocking the trunk unlock the doors? I opened the trunk today, and the doors unlocked. That hasn't happened in the 5 years I've owned the car. And it only happened once. Which mode is normal? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag4_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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#8. RE: [E36M3] How does central locking work - from jim.bassett@alloptic.com
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:06:54 -0800 From: jim.bassett@alloptic.com Subject: RE: [E36M3] How does central locking work AFAIK, yes, unlocking the trunk should unlock the doors. However, what year is your M3? My '98 M3 works this way, but the 1993 325 does not. (I guess that raises more questions than it answers. Sorry :-)) Jim Bassett -----Original Message----- From: Michael Schaublin [mailto:mike_schaublin@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:58 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] How does central locking work Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:41:45 -0500 From: "Michael Schaublin" Subject: How does central locking work Should unlocking the trunk unlock the doors? I opened the trunk today, and the doors unlocked. That hasn't happened in the 5 years I've owned the car. And it only happened once. Which mode is normal? Mike
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#9. Re: [E36M3] How does central locking work - from Jason Jensen
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:33:21 -0700 From: "Jason Jensen" <jasonjensen75@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How does central locking work My in-laws '87 325e, wife's '87 325is, and my '98 M3 will all unlock the doors when you unlock the trunk. FWIW Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: <jim.bassett@alloptic.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:17 PM Subject: RE: [E36M3] How does central locking work > Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:06:54 -0800 > From: jim.bassett@alloptic.com > Subject: RE: [E36M3] How does central locking work > > AFAIK, yes, unlocking the trunk should unlock the doors. > > However, what year is your M3? My '98 M3 works this way, but the 1993 325 > does not. > > (I guess that raises more questions than it answers. Sorry :-)) >
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#10. Re: [E36M3] How does central locking work - from donna seeley
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:36:51 -0800 From: donna seeley <dlseeley@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How does central locking work My 95 M3 does not unlock the doors when I unlock the trunk. Donna On Friday, February 22, 2002, at 03:17 PM, jim.bassett@alloptic.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:06:54 -0800 > From: jim.bassett@alloptic.com > Subject: RE: [E36M3] How does central locking work > > AFAIK, yes, unlocking the trunk should unlock the doors. > > However, what year is your M3? My '98 M3 works this way, but the 1993 > 325 > does not. > > (I guess that raises more questions than it answers. Sorry :-)) > > Jim Bassett > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Schaublin [mailto:mike_schaublin@hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:58 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] How does central locking work > > > Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:41:45 -0500 From: "Michael Schaublin" > Subject: How > does central locking work > Should unlocking the trunk unlock the doors? I opened the trunk today, > and > the doors unlocked. That hasn't happened in the 5 years I've owned the > car. > And it only happened once. Which mode is normal? > > Mike >