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#1. Re: [E36M3] re: big brake kits - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:29:04 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] re: big brake kits > It is NO secret that you have 'issues' with Ben Liaw > and love to take potshots at his products. But, this > time you are waaaaaaaaaaay off base though. How am I way off base? I was giving my honest impression about brakes. If the Rogue kit was good, I'd say it was good and that'd be the end of discussion. You people so foolish to just install one product on your car and then say "this is the best damn product in the world." How many of you actually have installed multiple short shift kits, sway bars, strut bars, (and now for me) springs on your car and have *direct* experience with the products? What I've seen is someone buys a UUC, Rogue or whatever short shift kit, installs it on his/her car and then proclaims, "this is the best thing ever!" And the funny thing is everyone believes him/her. And when people like me who have actually tried different setups have something bad to say about a product, we get flammed. WTF? > The kit RE sells is the same (basically) as the one > TMS sells and it works very well. Do you think Will > Turner would sell a 'dangerous' brake kit? Knowing > Ben, he would not either. That's the thing. Knowing the history of what has happened in the past, I'm not sure what to believe. When Ben was a part of UUC and I made a suggestion to Ben about the strut brace and how it stuck up too high...so they made a change and they gave me a complimentary set of the revised half rings. Not bad for me, but I was also told not to tell everyone as they couldn't afford to replace all the half rings out there. That's understandable, but I wonder how many owners of the first edition of UUC's strut brace actually knew about the revised design?? > Also, I have the ECIS BBK kit, which is very similar > (different calipers) and it works great for street and > track. Pedal feel is excellent and braking is greatly > improved and the fade factor is pretty much > eliminated. > > I can't imagine that the RE or TMS kits would be that > much different than the ECIS kit, seeing they share > almost all the same parts. Same parts? How do you arrive at that? Rogue uses a caliper some have said come from a Lotus. Whatever. Your kit uses a Boxster S caliper. How are the parts the same? > I don't know who's car you drove, but don't you think > it is possible that the system was not bled correctly. > What did the owner say about the kit, since he ownes > the car and has to use the brakes everyday? Um...he drove my car and said, "WOW! Your pedal is rock solid...my stock brakes didn't even feel that good!" > Come drive my car sometime and then tell me what you > think. Why don't you drive my car and tell me what you think. Have you driven a car with Rogue brakes? Have you driven a car with Movit front and rear brakes? Have you had a direct comparison? Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Re: S03 VS Rosso - from Andrej Dolenc
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:27:38 -0600 From: Andrej Dolenc <adolenc@erols.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: S03 VS Rosso Roy Kao writes: > Pirellis and I've heard very good feedback. As another alternative for you > to consider, local club members have been raving about the Toyo T1S. They > seem to love the feel and response of the tire and even for the occassional > track work, they've proven their mettle. Last but not least, the Toyos seem > to be priced very competitively. I'm on my second set of Toyo T1S tires. For the money, I think they're a fantastic tire. Though when I bought them the price differential between them and Pilot Sport's or S03's was quite a bit greater than it is now. My $0.02 Andrej '97 M3
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#3. Re: [E36M3] re: big brake kits - from Jake Tiggersman
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:54:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Tiggersman <jtigole@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] re: big brake kits Chester, Look folks, Chester's 'issues' are flyin' all over the place. Who cares about a UUC Strut bar that was re-engineered, we are talking about brake components made by third party manufactuers (Brembo, Hawk, Goodridge, BMW) and package as a brake kit. This is NOT a RE product engineered and produced by RE exclusively. <Have you driven a car with Movit front and rear brakes? Have you had a direct comparison? I HAVE driven cars with other brake kits (Movit and TMS) before I made my comments about liking or buying the ECIS kit. I don't make off the cuff comments without knowing something about the product first. <Same parts? How do you arrive at that? Rogue uses a caliper some have saidcome from a Lotus. Whatever. Your kit uses a Boxster S caliper. How are the parts the same?>? The rotor is the same, the SS line is the same and the caliper is made by the SAME company (Brembo) with the exact same pistons sizes. That is how! Do your homework before you make bold proclamations... BTW, the Boxster S caliper is the same as the 996 911 caliper. Just thought I'd inform you of that before you said using Boxster S calipers is not a good reason because the car is lighter than an E36 M3. <Um...he drove my car and said, "WOW! Your pedal is rock solid...my stock brakes didn't even feel that good!"> You cannot compare your Movit Kit to a smaller BBK, it's apples to oranges. --- Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> wrote: > > It is NO secret that you have 'issues' with Ben > Liaw > > and love to take potshots at his products. But, > this > > time you are waaaaaaaaaaay off base though. > > How am I way off base? I was giving my honest > impression about brakes. If the > Rogue kit was good, I'd say it was good and that'd > be the end of discussion. > > You people so foolish to just install one product on > your car and then say > "this is the best damn product in the world." How > many of you actually have > installed multiple short shift kits, sway bars, > strut bars, (and now for me) > springs on your car and have *direct* experience > with the products? > > What I've seen is someone buys a UUC, Rogue or > whatever short shift kit, > installs it on his/her car and then proclaims, "this > is the best thing ever!" > And the funny thing is everyone believes him/her. > And when people like me who > have actually tried different setups have something > bad to say about a product, > we get flammed. WTF? > > > The kit RE sells is the same (basically) as the > one > > TMS sells and it works very well. Do you think > Will > > Turner would sell a 'dangerous' brake kit? > Knowing > > Ben, he would not either. > > That's the thing. Knowing the history of what has > happened in the past, I'm > not sure what to believe. When Ben was a part of > UUC and I made a suggestion > to Ben about the strut brace and how it stuck up too > high...so they made a > change and they gave me a complimentary set of the > revised half rings. Not bad > for me, but I was also told not to tell everyone as > they couldn't afford to > replace all the half rings out there. That's > understandable, but I wonder how > many owners of the first edition of UUC's strut > brace actually knew about the > revised design?? > > > Also, I have the ECIS BBK kit, which is very > similar > > (different calipers) and it works great for street > and > > track. Pedal feel is excellent and braking is > greatly > > improved and the fade factor is pretty much > > eliminated. > > > > I can't imagine that the RE or TMS kits would be > that > > much different than the ECIS kit, seeing they > share > > almost all the same parts. > > Same parts? How do you arrive at that? Rogue uses > a caliper some have said > come from a Lotus. Whatever. Your kit uses a > Boxster S caliper. How are the > parts the same? > > > I don't know who's car you drove, but don't you > think > > it is possible that the system was not bled > correctly. > > What did the owner say about the kit, since he > ownes > > the car and has to use the brakes everyday? > > Um...he drove my car and said, "WOW! Your pedal is > rock solid...my stock > brakes didn't even feel that good!" > > > Come drive my car sometime and then tell me what > you > > think. > > Why don't you drive my car and tell me what you > think. Have you driven a car > with Rogue brakes? Have you driven a car with Movit > front and rear brakes? > Have you had a direct comparison? > > Chester > > ===== > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ===== Jake Tiggersman 95 M3 UUC Comp Evo SS ECIS BBK AA Gen III Exhaust __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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#4. [E36M3] Still Room at BW this weekend - from twisty M3
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 09:04:15 -0800 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: [E36M3] Still Room at BW this weekend Just FYI. I just got word that there's still some room at Buttonwillow this weekend with Driving Concepts, if anyone's looking for something to do this weekend. ;) Hotel rooms, on the other hand, are a bit hard to find. If someone is going to end up going but can't find a room, let me know by tomorrow and you can have my room at Willow Inn, as I'll be staying at Motel 6 after all. Just need to know by tomorrow so I can cancel it if no one needs it. Jonathan L. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? - from Ben Liaw - Rogue Engineering
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:06:02 -0500 From: "Ben Liaw - Rogue Engineering" <ben@rogueengineering.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? > So exactly what am I misinformed about? The fact that you guys use E46M3 > rotors? Nope...I think I'm correct on that. I hope so. We BLATANTLY state this on our website. Then again, anyone that can READ would know this. The fact that the calipers were > originally designed for 32mm rotors? Nope...heard from the customer when he > asked you what rotors were meant to be in there. Apparently 32mm came directly > from your mouth. No, this is where you're wrong. The specifications of the Brembo calipers can allow up to a 30mm thick rotor. Just because the rotor being used isn't the MAX, does not mean it's not designed for it. All the large aftermarket companies have a range which they use for specific calipers, diameters and thickness. This allows for flexibility for those producing kits out there to fit it to a multitude of cars. Oh, but you probably already knew that as well. What is important is how far the pistons extend (or what you're addressing, overextend). There are some companies producing brake kits that actually use "spacers" so that the pistons don't overextend. This is not the case with the RE (and TMS) brake kit. Hey, it's not like we MAKE the caliper, rotor and brake line. If you have an issue with the calipers in our brake kit, call Brembo Italy direct. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to listen to your issues (brake related or not). > So what happens when pads get real worn? Actually, what > happens when you want to buy replacement pads? The people at Performance > Friction suggest that the profile of the backing plate necessitates that you > need pads from a BMW 840. They also only had 3 sets of PF90s in stock and > weren't planning on making any additional units. ...and my friend grabbed two > out of the 3 sets. I guess you can always have the manufacturers take your old > pads and slap on some race compound on there. While they're at it, I guess you > can always tell them to add 2mm more of pad material. We don't spec Performance Fiction with our brake kit, as we spec Hawk Brake. They've got plenty of compounds and plenty of stock (they're made in Medina, OH). I'm not sure what pads TMS specs with the kit that they sell. > > An improperly bled braking system would make ANY braking system (stock or > > upgraded) have horrible pedal feel. Such was the case with one particular > > customer of ours, but since knowing how to properly bleed a Brembo caliper, > > all is working as normal. > > I actually didn't drive his car when it was at its worse. We have since then > bled the brakes a bunch of times even following your advice to bleed the inside > nipple first and then the outside. I think I even told the person at the > calipers to then go back inside and then go back outside just to be real sure. a bunch and bunch of times? are you sure you did it enough? when we've installed BBKs here, we only have to bleed the system once. maybe we'd have to bleed it over and over again, to get the results you experienced. > The outcome? Better, but not as good as my front and rear movit brakes. To each his own. Since you seem to like NOBODY's product, when should we see your M3 returned to stock form? When should we expect to see you putting your Movit brake up here for sale? Regards, Ben Liaw Rogue Engineering . 201.444.8150
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#6. Re: [E36M3] re: big brake kits - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:06:45 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] re: big brake kits --- Jake Tiggersman <jtigole@yahoo.com> wrote: > Look folks, Chester's 'issues' are flyin' all over the > place. Who cares about a UUC Strut bar that was > re-engineered, we are talking about brake components > made by third party manufactuers (Brembo, Hawk, > Goodridge, BMW) and package as a brake kit. This is > NOT a RE product engineered and produced by RE > exclusively. I don't get it. This is a direct answer to your question if I thought Ben would sell anything unsafe? I'm merely pointing out my observations of Ben in the past which, I think, is a good indication about his attention to detail. > <Have you driven a car with Movit front and rear > brakes? Have you had a direct comparison? > > I HAVE driven cars with other brake kits (Movit and > TMS) before I made my comments about liking or buying > the ECIS kit. I don't make off the cuff comments > without knowing something about the product first. And how am I making off the cuff comments? Since you have driven cars with the various setups, do you perceive a difference in pedal feel/feedback between Movit and TMS? > <Same parts? How do you arrive at that? Rogue uses > a caliper some have saidcome from a Lotus. Whatever. > Your kit uses a Boxster S caliper. How are the parts > the same?>? > > The rotor is the same, the SS line is the same and the > caliper is made by the SAME company (Brembo) with the > exact same pistons sizes. That is how! Do your > homework before you make bold proclamations... And how are the calipers fixed to the kingpin? The same? I think not. The Rogue kit, and this is perhaps the biggest pro to the kit, bolts right up. I believe the ECIS kit uses adapter brackets, no? > <Um...he drove my car and said, "WOW! Your pedal is > rock solid...my stock brakes didn't even feel that > good!"> > > You cannot compare your Movit Kit to a smaller BBK, > it's apples to oranges. Wouldn't pedal feel get more vague as the pistons get larger when compared to a hydraulic system designed for smaller piston surface area? Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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#7. RE: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? - from Wayne Miller
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:07:44 -0500 From: "Wayne Miller" <m3@waynemiller.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? Usually I stay out of these kinds of discussions but since I am this owner of the Rogue Engineering kit in question, I will chime in. I will start off by saying that I am friends with both Chester and Ben so I am not biased one way or another. It is true that when I first put my RE kit on the car, the pedal feel was terrible and, at one point, dangerous because the pedal went almost right to the floor. I tried bleeding the brakes again and it still didn't feel right so I called Ben and we discussed it. He told me the proper procedure to bleed the brakes (i.e., bleed the inside nipple of each one first which was the opposite of what I was doing) and then the car felt better. I had the car at Lime Rock for a driver's school 2 weeks ago and the brakes performed great with no issues at all. I do have the JTD underpanel with the Stage 1 brake ducts and the Bimmerworld brake backing plates but I didn't even connect the hoses so they weren't helping. When I got home, I bled the brakes one more time with the addition of using a piece of wood braced between the brake pedal and the seat to hold the pedal down (an idea I got from Chester - I was connected to my air tank for the pressure). Now, they feel great - at least as good as stock brakes and exactly like the 325 loner car that I had from the dealer last week (I am talking about pedal feel not overall braking performance here). Now, to be fair, I did drive Chester's car with the Movit brakes and his pedal felt great - even better than mine does now but is that a factor of the brakes themselves or the bleeding procedure, I don't know. In either case, I agree that for the street, the stock brakes are fine and I used them a few times on the track with the cooling ducts connected and had no troubles or fade issues either. To sum it up, I am happy with the RE kit and for sure they must work better than the Movit kits because everyone knows that the black calipers dissipate the heat better than red ones any day :-) <--- this is a JOKE so please don't start an argument here. Of course, it still holds true that black cars are faster ones than silver ones though. If anyone has more questions for me, please feel free to ask. -Wayne
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:20:56 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? --- Ben Liaw - Rogue Engineering <ben@rogueengineering.com> wrote: > > So exactly what am I misinformed about? The fact that you guys use E46M3 > > rotors? Nope...I think I'm correct on that. > > I hope so. We BLATANTLY state this on our website. Then again, anyone that > can READ would know this. ROTFLMAO! Good 'ol Ben. Up to his old tricks again. Wow...grade school antics...I love it! > The specifications of the Brembo calipers can allow up to a 30mm thick > rotor. Just because the rotor being used isn't the MAX, does not mean it's > not designed for it. All the large aftermarket companies have a range which > they use for specific calipers, diameters and thickness. This allows for > flexibility for those producing kits out there to fit it to a multitude of > cars. Oh, but you probably already knew that as well. > > What is important is how far the pistons extend (or what you're addressing, > overextend). There are some companies producing brake kits that actually > use "spacers" so that the pistons don't overextend. This is not the case > with the RE (and TMS) brake kit. Hey, it's not like we MAKE the caliper, > rotor and brake line. If you have an issue with the calipers in our brake > kit, call Brembo Italy direct. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to > listen to your issues (brake related or not). That's all good. As long as you're comfortable with your product, that's all that counts. > > I actually didn't drive his car when it was at its worse. We have since > then > > bled the brakes a bunch of times even following your advice to bleed the > inside > > nipple first and then the outside. I think I even told the person at the > > calipers to then go back inside and then go back outside just to be real > sure. > > a bunch and bunch of times? are you sure you did it enough? > > when we've installed BBKs here, we only have to bleed the system once. > maybe we'd have to bleed it over and over again, to get the results you > experienced. It wasn't up to me to bleed them that many times. At any rate, it would be to your benefit as I really wanted to see if we could improve pedal feel with your company's brakes. If we got a rock hard pedal, I would have been impressed and thought nothing further about it. > > The outcome? Better, but not as good as my front and rear movit brakes. > > To each his own. Since you seem to like NOBODY's product, when should we > see your M3 returned to stock form? When should we expect to see you > putting your Movit brake up here for sale? No, no, no...that's where you're wrong. I do like many of the products that are on my car...just not yours. And on that point, you're right...to each his own. Best regards, Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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#9. Re: Big Brake Kits? - from Scott Smith
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 09:23:53 -0800 From: Scott Smith <ssmith@akamai.com> Subject: Re: Big Brake Kits? > Regardless, I think that big brake kits couldn't hurt unless you're competing > and your class would forbid you to have the mod. As far as different brake this is why my '95 M3 IS car has stock brakes. never had a problem with warping except when I blew my motor and my car came to a stop (no cooldown lap ;-) And that was with stock rotors (floating rotors are technically illegal in IS) OTOH, my newly purchased '97 M3 BM car has stock brakes too, although it does have Euro rotors. That car has no problem stopping on a dime. In that case, larger rotors can add to unsprung weight, which is something you want to take into account... Scott '95 M3 IS -> sold '97 M3 (Euro motor++) BM -> learning
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? - from Ben Liaw - Rogue Engineering
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:44:48 -0500 From: "Ben Liaw - Rogue Engineering" <ben@rogueengineering.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? > No, no, no...that's where you're wrong. I do like many of the products that > are on my car...just not yours. And on that point, you're right...to each his > own. Chester, Looks like you just shot your unbiased product opinions right in the foot. Have fun with your car, whatever way you choose. Regards, Ben Liaw Rogue Engineering . 201.444.8150
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#11. Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? - from Sue Kraft
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Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 11:52:08 -0600 From: Sue Kraft <suekraft@new.rr.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? Are you having a bad day, Chester? Or are you just bored and feel like stirring things up a bit? BTW, aren't you a BMW vendor yourself? Or at least affiliated with one? If so, shouldn't you disclose this fact when attacking other vendors on my list? Suzy Chester Wong wrote: > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:20:56 -0800 (PST) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Big Brake Kits? > > --- Ben Liaw - Rogue Engineering <ben@rogueengineering.com> wrote: > > > So exactly what am I misinformed about? The fact that you guys use E46M3 > > > rotors? Nope...I think I'm correct on that. > > > > I hope so. We BLATANTLY state this on our website. Then again, anyone that > > can READ would know this. > > ROTFLMAO! Good 'ol Ben. Up to his old tricks again. Wow...grade school > antics...I love it! > > > The specifications of the Brembo calipers can allow up to a 30mm thick > > rotor. Just because the rotor being used isn't the MAX, does not mean it's > > not designed for it. All the large aftermarket companies have a range which > > they use for specific calipers, diameters and thickness. This allows for > > flexibility for those producing kits out there to fit it to a multitude of > > cars. Oh, but you probably already knew that as well. > > > > What is important is how far the pistons extend (or what you're addressing, > > overextend). There are some companies producing brake kits that actually > > use "spacers" so that the pistons don't overextend. This is not the case > > with the RE (and TMS) brake kit. Hey, it's not like we MAKE the caliper, > > rotor and brake line. If you have an issue with the calipers in our brake > > kit, call Brembo Italy direct. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to > > listen to your issues (brake related or not). > > That's all good. As long as you're comfortable with your product, that's all > that counts. > > > > I actually didn't drive his car when it was at its worse. We have since > > then > > > bled the brakes a bunch of times even following your advice to bleed the > > inside > > > nipple first and then the outside. I think I even told the person at the > > > calipers to then go back inside and then go back outside just to be real > > sure. > > > > a bunch and bunch of times? are you sure you did it enough? > > > > when we've installed BBKs here, we only have to bleed the system once. > > maybe we'd have to bleed it over and over again, to get the results you > > experienced. > > It wasn't up to me to bleed them that many times. At any rate, it would be to > your benefit as I really wanted to see if we could improve pedal feel with your > company's brakes. If we got a rock hard pedal, I would have been impressed and > thought nothing further about it. > > > > The outcome? Better, but not as good as my front and rear movit brakes. > > > > To each his own. Since you seem to like NOBODY's product, when should we > > see your M3 returned to stock form? When should we expect to see you > > putting your Movit brake up here for sale? > > No, no, no...that's where you're wrong. I do like many of the products that > are on my car...just not yours. And on that point, you're right...to each his > own. > > Best regards, > Chester