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#1. RE: [E36M3] Use of Harnesses sans roll bar - from Mel Silva
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:35:39 -0500 From: "Mel Silva" <melsilva@mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Use of Harnesses sans roll bar Jeff, For several years (5 or more) I used my open track car as a dual purpose daily driver/open track monster. I had a 4 point roll bar installed in both the convertible (required for open track duty) and in the coupe. I was rear-ended in heavy commute traffic while wearing my 4 point harness. See http://www.amt.org/mel and click on the "Mustangs and stuff" link, not the BMW M3 link (no bar or harnesses in that car). At the bottom of the Mustangs page you will see the aftermath of the accident. Also of interest is the "Car Insurance" link which I wrote after the pain of getting my dual purpose (open track/daily driver) car repaired and trying to explain to the insurance company why a car blue book listed at $5K was worth closer to $14K. As a point of contention, I will say that I was wearing the upper two points of the harness loosely so that I could reach the radio and AC knobs. In hind sight, this was a poor choice. My back was injured in what most would consider a minor way, but it took almost 3 years to heal properly and several months of therapy. Sitting still (like in an airplane seat!) was an excruciating experience, and sleeping was difficult for more than 4 hours at a time. I don't know for sure if wearing the factory 3 point seat belt, or if wearing the 4 point harness tighter would have alleviated this problem, I can only speculate. As a measure of the force involved, the pair of sunglasses I was wearing flew off my face with such force that they wedged themselves between the dash and windshield requiring two people to remove them. Oh, and I had foam padding on my bar, but never hit any body part on any of the bar, padded or not. BTW, I should have got a lawyer for this accident as well, but I'm not that bright some times and damn stubborn too. Mel -----Original Message----- From: Jeff A [mailto:aabel@austin.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 7:45 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Use of Harnesses sans roll bar Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:33:23 -0500 From: "Jeff A" <aabel@austin.rr.com> Subject: Use of Harnesses sans roll bar I don't recall seeing any discussion on the above subject, and in an archive search, I found Neil's comments are well writtten and crystallize the issue. I'm in the common situation of trying to improve safety and car control by upgrading my restraint system, from factory belts to something more robust like a 4, 5, or 6 point harness. The street compromises of a roll bar (roll cage totally unacceptable) are difficult to swallow for me. I was wondering if anyone had thoughts to add. I've talked with vendors, racers, DE instructors, a DE president, TCK, I/O Port Racing, and whomever else would give me their thoughts on the issue, and I remain undecided. I've gathered lots of opinions, and a few people have backed up their thoughts with anecdotal evidence. Of interest, the folks at I/O Port who advocate a roll bar, detailed two E36 rollovers. They cited poor roof integrity, totally crumpled A pillars, and somewhat bent B pillars, as evidence that track driven E36's need a roll bar. Interesting to note that both drivers walked away, one was wearing the Schroth ASM 4-point harnes, the other factory belts. ------------------ Using a roll bar with 4/5 point harness (and of course helmet) will undoubtedly increase passive safety for track use. It will also render your rear seat unusable for passenger occupancy the rest of the time. On the street the bar, when used without helmet and harness, may also compromise front seat safety unacceptably. This will be worse for tall drivers, whose seat position can put their unprotected head close to the bar, but may not be much of an issue at all for short drivers. It'll tend to be better for coupés, but worse for sedans, due to the respective B pillar positions. - The argument is sometimes advanced that a 4 (or 5) point harness should not be used without a roll bar or cage, since in case of a rollover with severe roof collapse (a la Sears Point) the occupants may be held upright and suffer serious spinal injuries. In 5 years I've never seen or heard of any such occurrence at a school, although the possibility warrants discussion. A couple of club chapters now mandate using only the stock lap/diagonal belts if there's no rollover protection. However it's also absolutely certain that a 4 point harness offers superior protection in any other accident mode than total roof collapse. What's the probability of a rollover with severe roof collapse vs. that of all other accident modes combined? Where is the line of compromise drawn, and who should make that decision? - With regard to rollovers, there may be some regional variations at play. The tracks I've driven on here in the Midwest are: Gingerman Grattan Indianapolis Raceway Park Mid Ohio Michigan International Speedway Putnam Park Road America Of these only MIS and RA even generate 5th gear speeds in an M3, and at MIS the higher speeds are out on the NASCAR bowl, which is wide and predictable (well, it is if you're not drafting nose-to-tail in the pack at 180 mph, anyway!). Obviously I'm assuming that rollovers severe enough to collapse the roof totally tend to require the energy of higher speeds. Are the conditions and the risk trade-offs different at Summit Point, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca and others, with their higher speed corners? Maybe so. My point in all this is that running a street car at a race track is a safety compromise from the very start. There are few absolute answers, and every participant needs to make his or her own informed and well-considered decisions about safety. Having said which, maybe I'll see some of you at Motor City's school at MIS the weekend after July 4th. Drive safely. Neil 96 M3 -------------------
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#2. RE: Soft Steering - from Burgess, Kim L
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:38:16 -0700 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: Soft Steering Steve wrote: A question: What could be some probable causes of 'soft' steering. <snip> Handling was fine the last time it rained, so I'm ruling out the tires and focusing on the work I did (Koni cut 'n gut, H&R springs, CA's and bushings)." My suspicions are that your car was lower slightly by the work accomplished and that lowering as resulted in a slight toe-in condition. Get an alignment. Kim L Burgess
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#3. Re: [E36M3] RE: Soft Steering - from Chester Wong
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Soft Steering Just a data point, but for our cars, when you lower them, the toe will go outwards. But I agree, definitely need an alignment. Chester --- "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> wrote: > My suspicions are that your car was lower slightly by the work accomplished > and that lowering as resulted in a slight toe-in condition. Get an > alignment. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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#4. Soft Steering, Take II - from Steve Klein
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:10:15 -0500 From: Steve Klein <klein@robinsonad.com> Subject: Soft Steering, Take II Thank you for all the responses. I lifted the front end last night to check all the work I'd done and to make sure there was no play in the stabilizer bar or steering linkages. Everything was as tight as I'd left it, the strut hats are properly oriented and re-checking the tire pressure showed that they are fine as well. That leaves the alignment. I've been putting this off until I get the last element, the RTB's, in place. So guess what I'm doing tonight? It does feel like a Toe problem. The car responds slowly to a steering input, but is stable in a turn. That is, unless I hit a bump while turning, then the Uncertainty Principle comes into play and it feels flighty. I noticed a 'dead' area in the front as I was lifting it - more specifically, I could push up the front end by hand about a half inch and the car would stay and I could push it back down and it would stay as well. Is this normal? I know 'The Butch' mentioned it took a while for the Streetline kit to settle in. I'll have it aligned by the end of the week and let you know what the results are. Thanks again! Steve
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#5. Evosport Underdrive Pulleys - from Wayne Miller
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:13:57 -0400 From: "Wayne Miller" <m3@waynemiller.com> Subject: Evosport Underdrive Pulleys So last night Chester and I decided to install our new Evosport underdrive pulleys ( www.evosport.com ). We found that the installation is fairly easy if you do 2 things - 1) have a 24mm socket to take off the alternator pulley and 2) not drive your car for a few hours before you decide to do this. Since I drove my car to Chester's house, my car was still hot when we started on it about an hour later so it makes it nice and toasty trying to get your hands and arms wedged in between the radiator and the pulleys to do the work. We learned (the hard way) that by far the hottest place was the front of the cylinder head where the VANOS plunger thing is - OUCH! Anyway, the install should take less than 2 hours if you don't know what you are doing and I honestly think that I could now do it in under 30 minutes (with a cool engine!) if I had to do it again. The instructions could use a little help (i.e., more than just essentially, "take off the old pulleys and put the new pulleys on") but this project is still on the easy side. Then we went for a drive. Upgrades like this are often difficult to judge because I am not Michael Schumacher (although I certainly wish that I was...okay, Juan Pablo Montoya - is that better?) and it is difficult to sense a 10-15hp improvement on a 300hp car. Was it faster because there was more power or because I just spent $400 and it had better feel faster for $400? Honestly, I think that it is faster. My car really screams from 5,500 to 7,000 RPM. Since I was a beta tester of the OBDII cam kit, I have lots of dyno runs so I will try to dyno it this week for results more accurate results. -Wayne P.S. When I got home last night, I had some serious ticking going on under the hood. I checked the oil level this morning and it was just at the full line so I added a quart of Mobil 1 ($6.35!!!! at the Mobil station - time to keep one in the trunk in a plastic bag) and the ticking almost immediately went away.
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#6. RE: Soft Steering - from Burgess, Kim L
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:09:14 -0700 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: Soft Steering I oppolgise for the incorrect communication - Thanks Chester! KLB Chester wrote: Just a data point, but for our cars, when you lower them, the toe will go outwards. But I agree, definitely need an alignment. Chester --- "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> wrote: > My suspicions are that your car was lower slightly by the work accomplished > and that lowering as resulted in a slight toe-in condition. Get an > alignment.
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#7. Re: Use of Harnesses sans roll bar - from Rob Verenna
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:18:29 -0400 From: Rob Verenna <rob@willraceforbeer.com> Subject: Re: Use of Harnesses sans roll bar Carey- Your chapter is not alone. I had a rollbar and Schroth 4point ASM camlocks in my M3 2 years ago when I did a Car Guys school down at Summit Point and they also said I couldn't use the 4 points. However, they were willing to compromise and said as long as I wore the stock belt I could wear my harness over it!!! I'm not an expert, but that's was probably less safe than wearing one or the other system. - rob At Tuesday, 11 June 2002, Carey Probst wrote: >Patroon Chapter has outlawed all 4 point harnesses for Drivers Schools, >not sure about autocrosses. > >They require either stock 3 point or the 5 or 6 point, but they don't >specify a roll bar with the 5 or 6 point. > >I run Schroth Autocontrols with ASM in my M3 for street and track, so >will not be doing any home chapter drivers schools with Patroon. > >Couldn't get a good reason, other than possibility of submarining if >belts not worn properly. Couldn't reference a specific incident or >injury, only the 'we decided'. > >Personally I don't feel safer in the OEM than the Schroths which are TUV >and DOT approved. =================================================================== EASY and FREE access to your email anywhere: http://Mailreader.com/ ===================================================================
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#8. Review: Evosport underdrive pulleys - from Chester Wong
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:32:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Review: Evosport underdrive pulleys So I got the package from EvoSport last Thursday, but I was just about to leave for Montreal to go to the Formula1 race, which was awesome....well...it was shaping up to be a great race at the end.. Anyway, Wayne came by to my place and we worked on installing them. 1) Remove the alternator piece from the radiator shroud to the duct 2) Remove the radiator shroud (makes life easier) 3) Remove intake (also makes life easier) 4) Remove radiator fan (I think it's a 31mm wrench...I dunno, I have the BMW tool)....remember, left hand threaded 5) It might be a good idea to loosen the water pump and power steering pulley bolts while the belts are still on. Try not to turn the engine backwards. 6) Pry off tensioner covers with flat head screwdrivers 7) Use 8mm allen socket to release tension to remove belt (turn in a clockwise direction when facing the engine) 8) To remove the alternator pulley, you will need a 24mm socket. The shaft of the alternator has a 8mm allen bore in it so you might be able to rig something up similar to a customized front strut but removal tool. I used a channel lock plier and held onto the pulley (yes, the pulley is available separately) since it was late and there was no way to hold the pulley otherwise. 9) The water pump and power steering pulleys seem to be made out of plastic. The alternator is definitely metal. Apply antisieze to the contact surfaces of the EvoSport aluminum pulleys to avoid galvanic corrosion. 10) Assembly is reverse. Fired the car up and went for a spin after we finished Wayne's car as well. The car feels good. Revs a bit easier and pulls a bit harder. One thing is for sure...it's no fun driving against Wayne's car anymore. With his taller diff and OBDII cam kit and LTW flywheel, he always pulls on me =( I think I'll stuff a banana in his exhaust when he's not looking one day... Anyway, my feel for the car is a bit skewed as I took turns driving a Toyota Landcruiser to Montreal... Yeck! Comfy, yes.. But I sure missed my M3...especially when a red 360 Modena merged onto the highway in front of us. Turns at 90 mph for him was probably cake (and it would have been similar in my car), but in the Toyota...oh boya. The EvoSport pullies will definitely not throw belts like other underdrive solutions. The new belt is rather tight in there...probably under a bit more tension than stock. Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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#9. Twin pickup oil pans - from Chester Wong
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:39:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Twin pickup oil pans Does anyone know if the '96+ euro 3.2L oil pan bolts up to our 3.2 blocks? The 3.2L euro oil pan and pump appear to be a dual pickup design. Any pros and cons going with that one versus the 3.0L one? TIA, Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Need Help with Cooling Problems (Long) - from Ron Buchalski
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:46:36 +0000 From: "Ron Buchalski" <rbuchals@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Need Help with Cooling Problems (Long) Joe, Your statement about coolant circulating too quickly doesn't make sense. The opposite will take place. The radiator will remove too much heat from the coolant, so the engine will not reach proper operating temp. The thermostat isn't an 'open or shut' device. It gradually opens at it's designed temp, and closes as the temp dips below this point. The hotter it gets, the wider it opens, allowing more coolant to flow through the passage. So, the amount of it's opening will determine the amount of coolant that flows through the radiator. Hotter coolant, more flow required. More flow to the radiator means more heat removed, so the coolant temp drops and the thermostat begins to close. The cycle repeats. When the thermostat is closed, coolant only circulates through the engine block and heater core. When the thermostat is open, coolant flows through the radiator to dissipate heat. So, depending on the temp of the coolant, the thermostat will determine how much coolant will flow to the radiator. It's not all or nothing. The radiator should be sized so that, at maximum thermostat opening (maximum flow to the radiator), sufficient heat can be removed from the coolant to prevent overheating. For some cars (like my former E30 318i), the radiator wasn't really large enough, so mid-summer heat, and the load from the AC compressor, meant that, at maximum coolant flow through the radiator, the coolant temp still ran at 3/4 of full hot, rather than at the midpoint (where the thermostat opens). Without a thermostat, coolant always has a wide open path and will always flow through the radiator. So, the radiator will remove too much heat from the coolant, and the engine will take much longer to get to operating temperature. In fact, under light loads or cooler ambient temps, the engine may never reach operating temp. The engine control computer uses coolant temp as an input to determine whether to run in cold operation mode (richer fuel mixture) or normal operation mode. Running rich for an extended period of time can cause carbon buildup, maybe even catcon overload. If you can run without a thermostat and overheat your engine, something's blocking coolant flow, and preventing the radiator from doing it's job. Or, airflow through the radiator is blocked, so the radiator can't dissipate the heat into the atmosphere. -rb >Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:25:01 -0700 >From: "Joe Dyer" <joedyer@attbi.com> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Need Help with Cooling Problems (Long) > >Goef, > >As an observation over 50 years of sports car activities, I have concluded >that it is detrimental to run an engine with NO thermostat present. What >happens is that the coolant circulates too quickly to release its heat >content while passing through the radiator, so it just builds up to an >overheating condition. > >So my advise to everyone - don't run without a functioning thermostat! > >Joe >the geriatric carnut _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
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#11. Re: Use of Harnesses sans roll bar - from Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:56:15 -0400 From: <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> Subject: Re: Use of Harnesses sans roll bar > Patroon Chapter has outlawed all 4 point harnesses for Drivers Schools, > not sure about autocrosses Interesting. I haven't driven with them yet, but if I showed up with my M3 with both standard and Schroth 4 point harnesses....would they send me home, or monitor to make sure I only used the regular belts during the day. I can't understand why they would rule out the Schroths, as they are designed to allow the occupant to collaspe just like regular belts, right? Regards, Stan Shaw Excell.Net Phone: (413) 599-0399 Fax: (413) 599-0421 Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net http://www.excell.net/ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin