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#1. Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? - from Dave Kelley
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:08:06 -0400 From: "Dave Kelley" <d.kelley@usa.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? Make sure you check with TC Kline. They have a new Koni DA that is a little less expensive that the previous ones! At least I think it is a new design. I know it is cheaper! > Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:44:31 EDT > From: Mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? > > > Well, I've made two decisions on shock/strut replacement. I'm going with > Koni's. Koni SA on front and DA on back for the external adjustability. > This helps reduce the costs a little too. > > This setup has been tested by Bob Tunnell on his 330ci with great results! > > Bob Gill > 97 ///M3 coupe > Philly Region SCCA > AS Champion 1997 & 2000 > BSP Champion 2001 > Dave Kelley 98 M3/4 94 325i
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from peter@guagenti.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:11:12 US/Pacific From: peter@guagenti.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left > Depends on how much it cost to rent the track. "Big name" tracks like > Laguna, Sears, and I would guess Fontana & Las Vegas cost a LOT more to > rent (and even more on weekends) then say, Thunderhill or Buttonwillow. Compare Sears rental for NASA vs. BMWCCA. NASA charges only about $350 for two days, whereas BMWCCA charges $500. I can't argue with how nice a change it is to run with BMW after running with the bad boy club (like Donna said -- 'like going home to Mom's for dinner'), but is a t-shirt and a peanut butter sandwich worth $150? You could even argue that watching the RX7's bang into each other is worth the lower amount of track time. ;-) > And how much quality track time and instruction do you get at NASA events > vs. BMW CCA events, as an example? How good an instructor are you Jim? ;-) Being that my usual "instructors" at NASA events are BMWCCA guys coming along for unofficial rides, I'd have to say pretty good. > Gotta love those "20 minute, oh wait > we're behind schedule, 17 minute" sessions at NASA. :-) Even CCA doesn't give you _that_ much more time. Yeah, NASA is about as organized as a frat party, but unless you run with someone like Greenflag or an open lappign day, you don't get much more time. > And even NASA charges more the few times they run Laguna. Laguna I could understand, but Fontana? > For some, the appeal of running a "big name" track is worth the extra cost. > One of the reasons I'm heading to Las Vegas this weekend. NASA was still only about $300 for LVMS. ;-) Just my $0.02. -p ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. http://www.hispeed.com
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:24:08 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left At 11:35 AM 8/8/02, alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: >All local DEs rely on the same pool of instructors, most of whom are PCA or >SCCA racers. It's different here in the Pacific region, apparently. Almost all of the BMW CCA instuctors were graduated from the student ranks, some are BMW Club racers, but not all. Very few instructors are pulled from SCCA (maybe one or two that I know of). Many have been part of the program for several years, not hired help lured by free track time. >What I'm trying to say is that I would not get too snobbish about the >quality of BMW DE instruction vs. that of other organizations... I will, since I've run for over 4 years with various groups/programs in my region (BMW CCA , NASA, SCCA, Green Flag, Shelby Club, etctetcetc). In *MY* experience, BMW CCA instructors (and the driving school program in general) are about the best I've encountered, in terms of learning to drive your BMW on track. I'm not talking about teaching "racing skills" - although many of the instructors I've had are adept at that as well. Not that we ever worked on "racing" stuff at a school, nosiree :-) >Happens with our BMW DEs as well. >Mostly caused by instructor run groups that deposit fluids/spare parts on >track ;-) We don't have separate instructor sessions, generally, and very rarely have any "stoppage" time. Let me make this clear, that my experience is with West Coast-based BMW CCA chapters: GGC, LA, SD, Las Vegas, all of which pull from nearly the same instructor pool. And as I mentioned in my original post, YMMV. Jim Bassett
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#4. FS: Euro M3 (a.k.a. M3 LTW) springs - from Chester Wong
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:36:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: FS: Euro M3 (a.k.a. M3 LTW) springs These are the real euro springs (a.k.a M3 LTW springs): p/n 31 33 2 227 422 (front springs) p/n 33 53 9 064 881 (rear springs) I believe a discounted price for the springs is ~$400 Make me an offer at chester_p_wong@yahoo.com Thanks, Chester ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:51:14 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left At 12:25 PM 8/8/02, peter@guagenti.com wrote: >Compare Sears rental for NASA vs. BMWCCA. NASA charges only about $350 for >two >days, whereas BMWCCA charges $500. But how many participants? If the track is $50,000 to rent, 100 BMW students is $500 to break even. NASA is a *for profit* business, and also usually gets 300-400 participants, so *of course* they can charge less (and still end up making money). The pricing/financial structures of the two organizations are totally different. >I can't argue with how nice a change it is >to run with BMW after running with the bad boy club (like Donna said -- 'like >going home to Mom's for dinner'), but is a t-shirt and a peanut butter >sandwich worth $150? If that's all you see, then I'm sorry. >Being that my usual "instructors" at NASA events are BMWCCA guys coming along >for unofficial rides, I'd have to say pretty good. But that's the point, you weren't ASSIGNED an instructor, and weren't even required to have one. Some of your *friends* came along to help you out. > > Gotta love those "20 minute, oh wait > > we're behind schedule, 17 minute" sessions at NASA. :-) > >Even CCA doesn't give you _that_ much more time. Yeah, NASA is about as >organized as a frat party, but unless you run with someone like Greenflag or >an open lappign day, you don't get much more time. Here's the thing: if all it boils down to you is track time per $$, then no, the BMW CCA schools aren't a bargain. There are plenty of other ways to get cheap track time. But you get what you pay for. > > For some, the appeal of running a "big name" track is worth the extra > cost. > > One of the reasons I'm heading to Las Vegas this weekend. > >NASA was still only about $300 for LVMS. ;-) And the BMW school I did there 3 years ago was closer to $500. Jim
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? - from Robert Chay
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:24:29 -0400 From: "Robert Chay" <rchay@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? Bilsteins only makes "Sport" shocks for the M3. From what I hear, the only difference is the travel is 2mm shorter than the HD shocks/struts. Oh, and you can send the shocks/struts to Bilstein to have them revalved for ~$60/shock. They have on file the best valving for almost all the springs available for our cars. -Bobby ----- Original Message ----- From: <Boen168@aol.com> > > Gruppe, > > Thank you so very much for all the great advices and recommendations that > I've received. It is sincerely appreciated! > > If I replaced the shocks with Bilsteins but still retaining the stock > springs, since it is a stronger shock than the factory OE., will it > increase the ride height? Also, I've been informed by a couple of listers > that the Bilsteins for the E36M3 are actually the "Heavy Duties" and not the > "Sport" as listed, so the ride should be quite comfortable but stiffer than > stock. Would really appreciate any comments! > > Thanks much again, > > Best regards, > David > '95 M3 >
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? - from Robert Chay
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:25:30 -0400 From: "Robert Chay" <rchay@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? This seems to be a hotly debated topic. I use Bilstein/Eibachs too and they work very well on the street and at the track. Juan's "pogo" effect is not due to the suspension. I used to live in CA and they have sections of freeway that will make any car pogo. Some worse than others. I wouldn't put my car in the "worse" class at all. (Juan, You should try a MB C320 on the same stretch of road) I replaced my shocks/springs at about 17k miles and still noticed a huge difference. Boges are usually more expensive than Bilstein's or Koni's. I think the main reason you'll hear Koni's being recommended is b/c those are the "it" shocks for the past few months. If you ask 5 people that own the SA's what settings they're running, almost guaranteed that you'll get 5 different answers, each swearing that their settings is the right one. Go with what you're comfortable with or what your wallet can deal with. Either way, you'll have a much better ride than with the stock shocks. -Bobby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Rico" <juan_rico@captionsinc.com> > > David, > > I replaced my worn stock shocks with a Bilstein/Eibach combo. > I gained about an inch at the front and lost almost an inch at the back-- > but keep in mind that my car had totally worn out shocks, so in a way it was > actually lowered. I suppose with stock springs you'll gain more height. > The ride is firmer and stiffer with Bilsteins and not at all uncomfortable. > HOWEVER, you will be in for a real treat when you're stuck in traffic > on the freeway cruising along under 40 MPH. The car does feel like a pogo > stick. That is the only time I've found my suspension combo to be annoying. > It all makes sense, though, once you hit twisties and canyon roads <g>, > provided you don't rip one of your control arms off, like I had happen to me > the other day. > > Juan. (3 wheeled M3 for now...) >
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:16:02 -0500 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks? Matt Henson <hensonator@yahoo.com> wrote: > --- alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: > > > > > Otherwise it's a pain, and most people will not be > > > able to adjust them to the ideal setting. > > > > Not true. > > However inconvenient, the ability to adjust Koni's > > for any spring easily > > beats the alternative of misadjusted Bilsteins. > > Really? So, what's the proper adjustment for a 300lb spring? > How about 450lbs? Did you use a shock dyno to match the > damping rate to your springs and bars? Or make a few hundred > laps around a track while measuring times? Or did you use > the butt dyno to dial them in until they "felt good"? Over > which road surface? My point is that, even if you can easily > dial in the setting (which you can't on the rears unless you > have something that 95% of M3 owners don't) most people still > don't know how to really properly set it up. Matt, You are missing the point. Your questions above can be answered through either theoretical analysis or experimentation. The issue is what do you do with the answers once you have them?! If you have Bilsteins, you are SOL. If you are with SA Koni's, you have an opportunity to tune your rebound rate to your springs/sways/track. If you have DA Koni's, you can also tune the compression rate. And than set it back to comfy soft for the street. I can't imagine what you are referring to with regards to rear Koni adjustment and 95% of the M3 owners. > Biltsteins are set up pretty well for stock springs. I'll believe that when you drive Lowell's car and convince both of us that what he has is a 'pretty well set up' ride...' That's all I have to contribute to this thread. To each his own shock. alex f
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:27:29 -0500 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> wrote: > > At 12:25 PM 8/8/02, peter@guagenti.com wrote: > >Compare Sears rental for NASA vs. BMWCCA. NASA charges only about $350 > >for two days, whereas BMWCCA charges $500. > > But how many participants? If the track is $50,000 to rent, 100 BMW > students is $500 to break even. Jim, It takes a little bit more math to get to the bottom of this. The hosting chapter has to pay for the insurance, room and board for CCA race stuarts (for DE/CR weekends), supplies (car numbers, drinks, etc) and whatever track personnel they can not provide on their own (corner workers, gate keepers, etc). So by the time you are done the track cost typically is not too far from ~50% of the event expenses. That obviously varies by location. On top of that, some BMW CCA chapters rake in a TON of money for the chapter's budgets from each school. So your BMW CCA schools are not exactly non-profit. > NASA is a *for profit* business, and also usually gets 300-400 participants, Sorry, but that strikes me as an exaggeration. There are only so many cars one can fit on track at one time. Typically around 20-35 per group depending on track length/layout. "For profit" business can not magically increase that number. So if your for profit DE school accepts more students, they get proportionally less track time. To accommodate 400 participants instead of 100, the school would have to offer roughly 1/4 the track time. > so *of course* they can charge less (and still end up making money). The > pricing/financial structures of the two organizations are totally different. Down here in TX, PCA runs the cheapest DEs as they have got their organization down to science, have their own pool of corner workers and instructors, and are rumored to have cheapest insurance (don't even get me started on that one). Local BMW CCA schools are half way between PCA and commercial DE schools are we do NOT make any money or them! So if your local CCA school is more expensive than commercial equivalents, your DE budget is likely subsidizing other chapter activities. YMMV, alex f
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:22:32 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left At 01:27 PM 8/8/02, alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: > > NASA is a *for profit* business, and also usually gets 300-400 >participants, > >Sorry, but that strikes me as an exaggeration. It's not (and borders on calling me a liar, which I take HUGE exception to). How many NorCal NASA events have you been to? I'm guessing the number is ZERO. I've been running with NASA for 3+ years. They have 3-4 HPDE groups, and 3-4 race groups. So that's 6-8 individual run groups, each with *easily* 50 cars on a fully-subscribed event. BTW, here's a schedule from the recent event at Thunderhill: 1 8:30 8:50 AM 0:20 GROUP A WARMUP 2 8:50 AM 9:10 AM 0:20 HPDE 4 4 9:10 AM 9:30 AM 0:20 GROUP C WARMUP 5 9:30 AM 9:50 AM 0:20 HPDE 3 6 9:50 AM 10:10 AM 0:20 RACE GROUP D- WARMUP 7 10:10 AM 10:30 AM 0:20 HPDE 4 9 10:50 AM 11:15 AM 0:20 HPDE 3 10 11:15 AM 11:35 AM 0:25 RACE GROUP A - QUALIFYING 11 11:35 AM 11:45 AM 0:20 HPDE 1 & 2 13 11:45 AM 12:10 PM 0:25 RACE GROUP C- QUALIFYING 14 12:10 PM 12:30 PM 0:20 HPDE 3 15 12:30 PM 12:50 PM 0:20 ALL RACERS- Passenger Rides, LOW SPEED- Kids Welcome (Time Permitting) 17 12:50 PM 1:10 PM 0:20 HPDE 1 & 2 18 1:10 PM 1:30 PM 0:20 HPDE 4 19 1:30 PM 1:55 PM 0:25 RACE GROUP D- QUALIFYING 21 1:55 PM 2:15 PM 0:20 HPDE 3 23 2:25 PM 2:55 PM 0:30 RACE GROUP A- RACE 24 2:55 PM 3:15 PM 0:20 HPDE 1 & 2 25 3:15 PM 3:35 PM 0:20 HPDE 4 27 3:35 PM 4:05 PM 0:30 RACE GROUP C- RACE 28 4:05 PM 4:25 PM 0:20 HPDE 1 & 2 29 4:25 PM 4:55 PM 0:30 RACE GROUP D- RACE This weekend's Las Vegas event (a NASA event) has 5 race groups and 3 HPDEs. >There are only so many cars one can fit on track at one time. Typically >around 20-35 per group depending on track length/layout. That's *optimal* - I've run a NASA Open Track session with nearly 60 cars at Sears Point. The BMW/Porsche race at Laguna last year had 58 cars. NASA is famous for over-subscribing their HPDEs, also. >"For profit" business can not magically increase that number. True, but that wasn't my point. My point was NASA can charge less because they have 3-4 *times* the participants, and still make money on the deal. I have seen no evidence that NASA in any way limits the size of their run groups (unless imposed by the track, like Laguna - sometimes :-)) Again, it's all about what you're looking for in a track event. Do you want a lot of track time with no instruction? There are plenty of groups for that (heck the best is a small, private group of us that rent tracks on the weekdays, limiting attendance to ~35 cars all paying 1/35th the rental cost). Do you want a more structured, instruction-oriented environment? There are choices there, too, and I happen to think the West Coast BMW schools are some of the best in that category - but then I'm biased. BMW schools have taught me pretty much every thing I know about high-performance driving. These are just one person's experiences. They may not (and most likely WILL not) relate in any way whatsoever to your's. Doesn't make them any less valid or true. Jim Bassett