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#1. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from alex.fadeev@verizon.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:35:20 -0500 From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> wrote: > > At 01:27 PM 8/8/02, alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: > > > NASA is a *for profit* business, and also usually gets 300-400 > > > participants, > > > >Sorry, but that strikes me as an exaggeration. > > It's not (and borders on calling me a liar, which I take HUGE exception > to). How many NorCal NASA events have you been to? I'm guessing the > number is ZERO. I've been running with NASA for 3+ years. They have 3-4 > HPDE groups, and 3-4 race groups. So that's 6-8 individual run groups, > each with *easily* 50 cars on a fully-subscribed event. Geez, Jim, chill. Nobody is calling you a liar. What NorCal NASA does to its students is an atrocity that's hard to believe unless, I guess, you've been there. I'm sorry to hear NASA stacks student cars like fish in the barrel at their NorCal events and than turns around and runs two groups on track at the same time. That's pathetic. But luckily not always (rarely? frequently?) the case with commercial DE schools across the country. alex f
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from peter@guagenti.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:39:28 US/Pacific From: peter@guagenti.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left > If that's all you see, then I'm sorry. Hopefully you know me well enough to know that that's not _all_ I see (me, exaggerate for effect? never... ;-), but as a club member I have to wonder why the costs are so high. As Alex brought up, surely some of the money from the track events funds other events. If its true, that somewhat annoys me. I don't go to concours events, don't go to the corral at the historics, etc. If some of my track money is funding another event, I'd prefer they stopped. Bring the price of track events down to the break-even mark and I'd have no issue. In fact, I expect BMW events to cost slightly more because of the lower numbers, but can the club completely justify _double_ the cost? I'm just curious where it goes. > But that's the point, you weren't ASSIGNED an instructor, and weren't even > required to have one. Some of your *friends* came along to help you out. That is true, and I wouldn't dispute the fact that the instruction in the Nor Cal BMW events are excellent. In fact, if all of the extra cost went directly to top-shelf instructors, I'd be fine with that. However, I do believe that you get to a certain point where having one of the CCA instructors in the right seat for an entire day isn't much better than you'd get with more personal seat time and having a talented friend ride along with you occasionally. > Here's the thing: if all it boils down to you is track time per $$, then > no, the BMW CCA schools aren't a bargain. There are plenty of other ways to > get cheap track time. But you get what you pay for. This is true, and I think there is value in both. I think that you get to a certain point (or maybe it's just certain people) where what you really need is as much seat time as you can get in order to improve. If I can do 4 NASA days for the price of 2 BMWCCA days, I'll probably do the NASA days. I still try to do as many CCA days as I can so I get the instruction and I get to hang out with fellow bimmer heads, but if the price was a bit lower I would surely do alot more. Just my $0.02. -peterg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using HiSpeed Technologies Webmail. http://www.hispeed.com
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from twisty M3
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:55:51 -0700 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left Oops! Look at the debate I started. ;) ;) I guess this means not many people from the list are going? hehe! >From: alex.fadeev@verizon.com > >What NorCal NASA does to its students is an >atrocity that's hard to believe unless, I guess, you've been there. I'm >sorry to hear NASA stacks student cars like fish in the barrel at their >NorCal > Pretty sure that's how they run the SoCal NASA events too. I've attended a few of the DCI events that are held on the same weekend as NASA. The first time I showed up to one, I couldn't believe how many cars were there. Luckily, the Driving Concepts group was the calm in the center of the storm, but it made for some fun viewing. Seeing contact in a "school" environment, however, makes me a bit weary about taking my car out with them. Until I get a beater, I don't mind paying a bit extra... although it is a pity that the CalSpeedway is this expensive. Jonathan L. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from Scott Smith
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:07:39 -0700 From: Scott Smith <scott@gelatinous.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left Peter and Jim argued: > > And even NASA charges more the few times they run Laguna. > > Laguna I could understand, but Fontana? Running the oval at Fontana costs a LOT of money. Last time (only time?) I ran Fontana was in February, with NASA. Not only did they charge above-average rates, they also did NOT get the oval. Instead, one of the NASCAR "driving" schools was going on. Kinda cool to see them going around the oval as we played in the infield. Now I'm not sure, but I *think* the LA drivers school involves some of the oval in Sept.... that raises the cost substantially. Alex wrote: > It takes a little bit more math to get to the bottom of this. The hosting > chapter has to pay for the insurance, room and board for CCA race stuarts > (for DE/CR weekends), supplies (car numbers, drinks, etc) and whatever > track personnel they can not provide on their own (corner workers, gate > keepers, etc). > So by the time you are done the track cost typically is not too far from > ~50% of the event expenses. That obviously varies by location. > On top of that, some BMW CCA chapters rake in a TON of money for the > chapter's budgets from each school. So your BMW CCA schools are not exactly > non-profit. some BMW CCA chapters, maybe. Not all though. Unless you've been to a GGC chapter meeting (I haven't, btw) then please don't comment on our region. > > NASA is a *for profit* business, and also usually gets 300-400 > participants, > > Sorry, but that strikes me as an exaggeration. um, when was the last time you were at a NASA event in the northern california region? 8 groups time 40 cars (on AVERAGE) = 320 cars. You should have been there when we ran the 0.9 mile configuration of Sears Point (when they were just finishing up major reconstruction). The school group was just one long line going 30mph for over 1/2 the way. > There are only so many cars one can fit on track at one time. Typically > around 20-35 per group depending on track length/layout. our tracks are 3 miles long out here. You can "fit" 75 cars, according to FIA regulations (25 cars/mile, right?) Doesn't mean it's any fun to drive like that. BMWCCA on the other hand, limits themselves to 29 cars on the same track. > "For profit" business can not magically increase that number. So if your > for profit DE school accepts more students, they get proportionally less > track time. To accommodate 400 participants instead of 100, the school > would have to offer roughly 1/4 the track time. lets see, BMW schools give you 4 30 minute sessions, by limitting themselves to 4 run groups, and using students to flag during lunch. NASA runs 7-8 groups, often with 20 minute sesions (our race groups get 70-75 minutes per weekend with 3 sessions). So I'd get 60% more tracktime with a BMW school than with a NASA race, or 50% more tracktime with a BMW school than with a NASA school. So if I pay $300 for a NASA school, then I should pay $450 for a BMW school. Yes you end up paying $500, but for that $50, you get about 2/3rds the students per group (so more open time), plus instruction, plus lunch (usually). Hmmmm, now that I think about it, BMW schools are actually too cheap! Oh that's right, they aren't for profit :-) > > so *of course* they can charge less (and still end up making money). The > > pricing/financial structures of the two organizations are totally > different. > > Down here in TX, PCA runs the cheapest DEs as they have got their > organization down to science, have their own pool of corner workers and > instructors, and are rumored to have cheapest insurance (don't even get me > started on that one). Local BMW CCA schools are half way between PCA and > commercial DE schools are we do NOT make any money or them! I've heard great things about PCA events in Texas. However, as with all economics, what works in one area may not work in another. Location, location, location. Scott
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:11:58 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left At 02:45 PM 8/8/02, peter@guagenti.com wrote: >Hopefully you know me well enough to know that that's not _all_ I see (me, >exaggerate for effect? never... ;-), but as a club member I have to wonder >why >the costs are so high. Easy solution: Go to a Board meeting and ask. Seriously, it's not secret. >As Alex brought up, surely some of the money from the >track events funds other events. If its true, that somewhat annoys me. I'm pretty sure that *some* driving events do make a bit of money, to cover expenses for other events. But, that's just my unfounded view. I have not been to a Board meeting for quite a long time. >In fact, I expect BMW events to cost slightly more because of the lower >numbers, but can the club completely justify _double_ the cost? $500 vs $300-$350 isn't double. Track rental costs are fixed - whether you have ONE car or *300*. So part of the justification (compared to NASA) is number of participants. >I'm just >curious where it goes. Again, go ask *your* Board members. You elected them, feel free to ask them how the Chapter is running it's programs. But, keep in mind, to really accurately evaluate this issue, you'll have to get the same info from NASA. Good luck with that :-) >However, I do believe that you get to a certain point where having one of the >CCA instructors in the right seat for an entire day isn't much better than >you'd get with more personal seat time and having a talented friend ride >along >with you occasionally. I agree 100%! Now were getting into the area of individual (or perceived) value - what may be a justified event-cost for one person may not be for another. Do you want to pay $500 for instruction, classroom sessions, etc. or $300-$350 for just track time? Up to you. (Regardless of whether I had become an instructor or not, last Oct's Laguna school was my last as a student. I had reached the point where the value wasn't there for me anymore. Plus I had a race car to support :-)). >I think that you get to a certain point (or maybe it's just certain people) Both :-) >where what you really need is as much seat time as you can get in order to >improve. If I can do 4 NASA days for the price of 2 BMWCCA days, I'll >probably >do the NASA days. From personal experience, not a bad choice, but I've found that I learned as much in 2 BMW CCA days as 4 NASA days. That's just the way I learn - usually need someone in the car with me. I found I had to work *much* harder at NASA days to learn stuff - and I had to learn how to learn (if that makes sense <g> - I'm going through that again in Club Racing. Nobody but me in the car). And I have to say, I was lucky with the BMW instructors I've had (only had to "fire" one :-)). >I still try to do as many CCA days as I can so I get the instruction and I >get >to hang out with fellow bimmer heads, but if the price was a bit lower I >would >surely do alot more. You could say that regarding just about anything :-) (If there price were a bit lower, I would surely buy that Ferrari :-)) Jim Bassett
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:25:36 -0700 From: Jim Bassett <jimbassett@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fontana: Plenty of Room Left At 02:45 PM 8/8/02, alex.fadeev@verizon.com wrote: >Geez, Jim, chill. Sorry, just that I had stated my experiences, and had it called an "exaggeration" (i.e. "not true"). >I'm >sorry to hear NASA stacks student cars like fish in the barrel at their >NorCal events Most cases it's not too bad. Thunderhill is 3 miles long, and if you go by the SCCA guideline of 20-25 cars per track mile, that's 60-75 cars "possible". >and than turns around and runs two groups on track at the >same time. They due that due to a lack of instuctors, I think. Group 1 and 2 aren't 50 cars EACH (holy sh*t, that would be a lot of cars :-)). But Group 1 "students" are assigned an instructor, whereas Group 2s are not. At some events, there are 2 Group 1/2 groups, so that the Group 1s aren't all in the same group and each can get an instructor. One other thing to clear up. NASA HPDE sessions are not "schools" like you might think as with BMW CCA. They are "High Performance Driving Events" - no instructor in Groups 2-4, and no classroom sessions. Just driving. And the main reason for NASA is racing. There are usually more racers than HPDE-ers at the events. >That's pathetic. What's pathetic (IMHO) are some of the "drivers", but that's another rant :-) Jim
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#7. new ellipsoid lens: where and how much? - from Reid Conti
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:14:31 -0700 From: Reid Conti <reid@conti.net> Subject: new ellipsoid lens: where and how much? Well, I got home and found a very unpleasant surprise, a nice big rock hole in the right side lens of my headlights.. only on the big square lens, there's no damage to the inner lenses.. so my question is, how much is a new one, and where can I get it? I've never seen them advertised on any of the usual suspects' websites (turner, etc).. @#%@#$%&@#$... I'm so pissed. Now I may have to put that stoneguard crap on them, and I hate anything that covers my headlights... I know it's clear, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't look as good as glass and it DOES cut down on light transmission. - reid
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#8. What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:43:11 -0400 From: "Paul Elliott" <elliott.paul@worldnet.att.net> Subject: What is the best aftermarket OEM shocks Hi Matt, >>it just makes sense to go OEM. << I always thought that the main advantage to going with Konis or Bilsteins was that as everybody knows the stock shocks are shot by about 35K miles, or for most people, by the time their first Inspection II rolls around, whereas I always thought the Konis and Bilsteins were, more or less, 'lifetime' shocks...I'll be very upset if my Konis are shot before my next inspection II, or even, the one after that...We'll see. BTW, I also happen to love the handling, and, the ride is pretty compliant as well. Paul Elliott --------------------------------------------------------- '99 White M3; < 45K miles; Dinan stage II SC kit with 6" RMS crank pulley: 11 psi; AA Water Injection; Fikse FM-10s; X-Brace; Dinan Koni Suspension; Stygar SS and Clutch Stop; Sound by Polk, Excelon, JLAudio
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#9. brake caliper dust boot - from Paul Elliott
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:46:40 -0400 From: "Paul Elliott" <elliott.paul@worldnet.att.net> Subject: brake caliper dust boot Bob, >>Once my brake pads are worn by 1/3rd, I "shim" the pads in the calipers with these backing plates<< I must be missing something, but, what do you do about the 'prong's that are attached to the inside pad? Ie, how do you get a shim in place with teh prong in the way...Do you cut it off? Or is it a different setup altogether. Paul Elliott --------------------------------------------------------- '99 White M3; < 45K miles; Dinan stage II SC kit with 6" RMS crank pulley: 11 psi; AA Water Injection; Fikse FM-10s; X-Brace; Dinan Koni Suspension; Stygar SS and Clutch Stop; Sound by Polk, Excelon, JLAudio
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#10. Re: [E36M3] new ellipsoid lens: where and how much? - from Chester Wong
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] new ellipsoid lens: where and how much? ZKWs I presume? 63 12 8 363 507 (left) 63 12 8 363 508 (right) You'll also need a new headlight gasket (632 12 1 393 853) I was actually going to order a set as my lenses are heavily pitted and I was going to go with new lenses and put the stongard stuff on. Does it cut down on transmission that much? I dunno. I have HIDs :) I priced them through my distributor and can get them for $100. I was going to shop around and see if the people who sell generic ZKW stuff (like the OEM ZKW fogs) can get the glass itself...perhaps there's money to be had there. Chester --- Reid Conti <reid@conti.net> wrote: > so my question is, how much is a new one, and where can I get it? I've > never seen them advertised on any of the usual suspects' websites (turner, > etc).. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com
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#11. Roebling Road school 8/17 and 18th - from Tim Ng
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:42:20 -0700 From: "Tim Ng" <s14realm3@peachtreebmwcca.org> Subject: Roebling Road school 8/17 and 18th Hey track sluts, there are still space open for the 8/17 and 18th driving school @ Roebling Road Raceway. Hurry and sign up: http://www.sunshinebeemer.com/roebling.htm Tim Ng 95 E36 M3 BzznM3 92 E30 325ic M-tech convetible 91 E30 M3 street car 88 E30 M3 Track car 93 Chevy Blazer 2 dr. tow vehicle
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#12. Re: [E36M3] brake caliper dust boot - from Chester Wong
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] brake caliper dust boot You should be able to pull out the clip. Also, you might be able to get away with just using the old outboard pad backing plate. Also, not all pads come with the clips... PF90s, PF97s come to mind that I've personally had experience with. Chester --- Paul Elliott <elliott.paul@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > I must be missing something, but, what do you do about the 'prong's that are > attached to the inside pad? Ie, how do you get a shim in place with teh > prong in the way...Do you cut it off? Or is it a different setup > altogether. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com