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#1. Don't make me get out my whip!!! - from Sue Kraft
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:57:57 -0500 From: Sue Kraft <suekraft@new.rr.com> Subject: Don't make me get out my whip!!! Ha! I kind of thought that would get your attention. And now that I have it, please don't forget about the rest of our sponsors.... Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com You are all required to buy something from them, too! :-) (I can hear it now -- "But I had to buy that roll cage or Suzy was going to kick me off her list!") Suzy
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#2. rally style M3? - from Kit Wetzler
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:58:10 -0700 From: "Kit Wetzler" <kitwetzler@mindspring.com> Subject: rally style M3? >What I don't like about the M3, and I still firmly believe this, is its >uncertainty which makes it impossible to drive rally style (to put an >extreme example for illustrative and argumentative albeit dramatic >purposes). Whoa! currently, my M3 is set up rally style. :) (bald S-03s = big oversteer in the wet.) If you are having trouble controlling your M3, you really need to take a look at your suspension. It is increibly easy to control, I've spun it maybe 6-7 times in 3 years of tracking, and each time had an extenuating circumstance. Granted, I came from a Miata and an S2000 that were much more on the edge, but I think the M3 is one of the friendliest track cars ever. And street hooliganism is a mere touch of the throttle away. (not that I partake in such acts of wanton social irresponsibility. ;) I really think the M3 is easy to control until the rear shocks and rear trailing arm bushings wear out, once that happens, it's toad's wild ride! -kit
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... - from Juan Rico
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:29:18 -0700 From: Juan Rico <juan_rico@captionsinc.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... Ron et all, I'm going to have to totally disagree with you. Sorry. Just because I haven't done a DE in my M3 that does not make me less of a driver. I have been to driving schools, just not in my M3. And I've been driving since the age of 9. So I doubt anyone has more track experience than me driving experience. Not by a long shot. And lest we forget, I've been driving my M3 for 140K miles and counting. A LOT of those miles, solitary canyon miles on my daily commute... So I know my M3 very well. Much better than the majority on this list probably. I can't change the spark plugs by myself but I have many hours at this particular helm and in all sorts of conditions. Experience at the track is by no means the factor of biggest weight in this equation. Why? Ever heard of Kimi-Matias Räikkönen? There is such a thing as talent. Just because you or I don't race doesn't necessarily mean that we don't have it. Or that we are less of a driver than someone who has done DE's. Go to a golf course on any given Sunday, and you'll see countless bozos with countless hours of experience who can't play worth a damn. Talent. My only driving experience fortunately does not consist of acts of hooliganism. Please. Having lived in Africa for 15 years, it goes without saying that I am well versed in all sorts of shifting driving conditions and I know ALL ABOUT driving rally style... and when to do it safely. I am experienced in playing around and having fun sliding many different cars, from Mercedes to Land Cruisers. After all, what are you going to crash into in the middle of the Sahara? Again, to reiterate what I said before, my post is relevant to street driving and to the average driver. Unlike Bobby, many people have been saved in their M3 because they've lifted of the throttle and the rear end has tucked neatly back in. That is its saving grace 90% of the time. That is why the M3 is forgiving. Because you rarely get into "correction" territory. But once you get into "correction" territory, the M3 is a *very* tricky car. No, Docwyte, I don't only want to do tail slides. I want to throttle steer, for example. That IS a handling issue. And on the street it's impossible unless you have gravel... Or a supercharger. Or a mother of an M3. I don't. Having said all this, I am now going to check my RTAB... ;-)) Juan. -----Original Message----- _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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#4.UUC Motorwerks System U Exhaust - Brand New - from Dorffer, Rich
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:39:32 -0400 From: "Dorffer, Rich" <RDORFFER@CleIndians.com> Subject: <FS> UUC Motorwerks System U Exhaust - Brand New I have a brand new System U exhaust with dual round tips for sale. Before I installed it I changed my plans so I can't use it. It is brand new, still in the box. It has the straight tips. New price is $640 I believe. This really is one of the nicest aftermarket exhausts available out there and proven to provide some horsepower gains. I would like to get $550 or best offer. Shipping will be from NE Ohio and I can ship via FedEx Ground or UPS Ground, whichever is the least expensive. I will split the cost of shipping with anyone from the list. I could send pics but I would have to remove it from the box and it seems sort of silly since it is brand new and you can see what it looks like on UUC's website. Thanks, Rich
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#5. RTAB's - from Patrick Dargan
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:52:16 -0400 From: "Patrick Dargan" <darg01@earthlink.net> Subject: RTAB's Does anyone have the part numbers for the items needed for the bushing change? Assume that the GC spacers are used with OE bushings. Correct? Pat D.
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#6. RTAB Tool - from Brad Ahrens
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:52:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Ahrens <txsaggie97@yahoo.com> Subject: RTAB Tool I see a lot of you already have the Victory Tool. You might want to check out the threads on it on bimmerforums.com. There were some initial problems with a not strong enough threaded rod but they have been fixed I think. One issue that turned me off - not sure if you can do this another way is that they wanted you to break off (riiight) more like cut off the flanges on the bushing (96+) before pulling them out per their directions. Shoot by the looks of the picks getting those flanges off enough to let it pull through would be more work than the sawz-all. Again - I didn't follow it in depth so I could be way off but something to check on. If I had more time here at work I would look up the thread. Alex - I too need to do my RTAB here in Dallas. Email me if you want to tackle this together. I just need to order mine and also get a set of the GC reinforcements. I was planning on either a sawz-all approach as we have one at the house or finding some correct sized washers and using my 3 (adjustable to 2 if needed) jawed puller to do much the same as the tool. I grew up on a farm rigging things..I figured I would wing it...heh. Brad bradahrens@hotmail.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com
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#7. RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... - from Dave Spragg
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:01:45 -0400 From: "Dave Spragg" <dspragg@attbi.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... Sniff... Sniff... Hmmmmm, stale bait but I almost bit. Dave Spragg dave@spragg.com 99 M3 street 92 318is #330 IP (95 M3 engine and suspension) -----Original Message----- From: Juan Rico [mailto:juan_rico@captionsinc.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:36 PM To: E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:29:18 -0700 From: Juan Rico <juan_rico@captionsinc.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... Ron et all, I'm going to have to totally disagree with you. Sorry. Just because I haven't done a DE in my M3 that does not make me less of a driver. I have been to driving schools, just not in my M3. And I've been driving since the age of 9. So I doubt anyone has more track experience than me driving experience. Not by a long shot. And lest we forget, I've been driving my M3 for 140K miles and counting. A LOT of those miles, solitary canyon miles on my daily commute... So I know my M3 very well. Much better than the majority on this list probably. I can't change the spark plugs by myself but I have many hours at this particular helm and in all sorts of conditions. Experience at the track is by no means the factor of biggest weight in this equation. Why? Ever heard of Kimi-Matias Räikkönen? There is such a thing as talent. Just because you or I don't race doesn't necessarily mean that we don't have it. Or that we are less of a driver than someone who has done DE's. Go to a golf course on any given Sunday, and you'll see countless bozos with countless hours of experience who can't play worth a damn. Talent. My only driving experience fortunately does not consist of acts of hooliganism. Please. Having lived in Africa for 15 years, it goes without saying that I am well versed in all sorts of shifting driving conditions and I know ALL ABOUT driving rally style... and when to do it safely. I am experienced in playing around and having fun sliding many different cars, from Mercedes to Land Cruisers. After all, what are you going to crash into in the middle of the Sahara? Again, to reiterate what I said before, my post is relevant to street driving and to the average driver. Unlike Bobby, many people have been saved in their M3 because they've lifted of the throttle and the rear end has tucked neatly back in. That is its saving grace 90% of the time. That is why the M3 is forgiving. Because you rarely get into "correction" territory. But once you get into "correction" territory, the M3 is a *very* tricky car. No, Docwyte, I don't only want to do tail slides. I want to throttle steer, for example. That IS a handling issue. And on the street it's impossible unless you have gravel... Or a supercharger. Or a mother of an M3. I don't. Having said all this, I am now going to check my RTAB... ;-)) Juan. -----Original Message----- _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#8. RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... - from Jon Phillips
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:04:09 -0700 From: jon@maximumpc.com (Jon Phillips) Subject: RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... Looks like this has reached an impasse. On one hand you have an entire community of driving instructors, racers, and all-around experienced drivers saying the E36 is emminently forgiving, and on the other hand you have a single individual with hard-to-pin-down experience saying the E36 is a beast. Juan, on paper you sound like a really good driver, but it's difficult to dispute this overwhelming body of anecdotal evidence (not to mention countless car magazine articles that have stated the same opinions as the people on this list). Personally, I've done three DEs, and I'm nowhere near a good enough driver to make claims about the M3's general nature, all my spirited street driving nothwithstanding. Also, maybe you already mentioned it, but if you haven't, you might want to explain how many times you've done bushing replacements during the course of your 140,000 miles. Given your canyon driving style, and the fact that you've put so many miles on the car, your rear toe bushing might be nothing but shreds, and, yeah, that could explain the sheer terror the car inspires. At 140,000 you should probably be on at least your third pair. What do the experts think? At 01:36 PM 4/22/2003 -0500, Juan Rico wrote: >Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:29:18 -0700 >From: Juan Rico <juan_rico@captionsinc.com> >Subject: RE: [E36M3] Best Handling Car- Depends... > >Ron et all, > >I'm going to have to totally disagree with you. Sorry. Just because I >haven't done a DE in my M3 that does not make me less of a driver. I have >been to driving schools, just not in my M3. And I've been driving since the >age of 9. So I doubt anyone has more track experience than me driving >experience. Not by a long shot. And lest we forget, I've been driving my M3 >for 140K miles and counting. A LOT of those miles, solitary canyon miles on >my daily commute... So I know my M3 very well. Much better than the majority >on this list probably. I can't change the spark plugs by myself but I have >many hours at this particular helm and in all sorts of conditions. >Experience at the track is by no means the factor of biggest weight in this >equation. Why? Ever heard of Kimi-Matias Räikkönen? There is such a thing as >talent. Just because you or I don't race doesn't necessarily mean that we >don't have it. Or that we are less of a driver than someone who has done >DE's. Go to a golf course on any given Sunday, and you'll see countless >bozos with countless hours of experience who can't play worth a damn. >Talent. > >My only driving experience fortunately does not consist of acts of >hooliganism. Please. Having lived in Africa for 15 years, it goes without >saying that I am well versed in all sorts of shifting driving conditions and >I know ALL ABOUT driving rally style... and when to do it safely. I am >experienced in playing around and having fun sliding many different cars, >from Mercedes to Land Cruisers. After all, what are you going to crash into >in the middle of the Sahara? > >Again, to reiterate what I said before, my post is relevant to street >driving and to the average driver. Unlike Bobby, many people have been saved >in their M3 because they've lifted of the throttle and the rear end has >tucked neatly back in. That is its saving grace 90% of the time. >That is why the M3 is forgiving. Because you rarely get into "correction" >territory. But once you get into "correction" territory, the M3 is a *very* >tricky car. No, Docwyte, I don't only want to do tail slides. I want to >throttle steer, for example. That IS a handling issue. And on the street >it's impossible unless you have gravel... Or a supercharger. >Or a mother of an M3. I don't. > >Having said all this, I am now going to check my RTAB... ;-)) > >Juan. > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > >************************************************* >Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: >Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com >Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com >Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > >DIGEST INFORMATION: >http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >*************************************************
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#9. Re: Best Handling Car - it *does* depend - on a lot - from daanesh chanduwadia
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:07:57 -0400 From: "daanesh chanduwadia" <daanesh@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Best Handling Car - it *does* depend - on a lot I think Juan makes a good point about the M3's handling, and as much as I hate to admit it, it comes down to "it all depends on what you're used to." Sounds spineless, and that's all I took it for when it was uttered by a former coworker - he used to pull this out any time I had him backied into a corner when he was arguing that Audis were dynamic equals to BMWs, just set up for different preferences. (I thought he was delusional to think VW/Audis were any better than mediocre in any dynamic measurement or in the weighting/consistency of their controls). But you have to appreciate his point - it depends on what kind of cars you've experienced and where you've had the opportunity to experience them - in other words what kind of car you associate with handling.... the Miata/Elan/E30 formula is quite different than that of say a corvette or an E34M5 or E36M3 - the former are more 'enertaining', the later more 'capable'. one car can't be all things (although the variability of the upcoming 5series is bringing us closer). also, let's not forget that we're all talking about different cars - to a point. there's the 3.0 and the 3.2 setup, and by now few people are still on their MXX3s or Pilot SPorts or what have you - we tend to throw away OEM tires in pursuit of more grip, and forget that one of the reasons OEM tires become OEM is that they're easy to drive near the limit. and how many of the lst members are talking abot stock suspended M3 3.2s as C&D was? And as others have pointed out the amount of rear toe or the condition/type of RTAB cannot be ignored - the Zaxle is meant to stabilize the car by inducing toe in when loaded upin a corner or when there is a torque reversal in the driveline - some of us may have eliminated or reduced that safety net. there's also the matter of the lower profile tires and their inherent characteristics; I think this except frames the issue well: "“Round black things, made of synthetic rubber? Yes. Likely to be broader of tread and shallower of sidewall if fitted to a rapid car that has lots of roadholding? Yes. It makes the car look better, more like a track racer. But let’s get our priorities right. A wide tyre looks good, of course. But it’s wide so that more rubber can touch the road, which means more grip. This sounds obvious, but it’s not a linear relationship if width against roadholding against driving pleasure. A certain amount of weight per unit of tread area is needed to ensure reliable grip when the road surface is slippery, and too much lightly-laden width also causes the tyre’s contact patch to be the wrong shape. If that patch is wider than it is long, there’s less self-aligning force acting on the wheel as it rotates. This reduces both the steering’s self-centering and the driver’s awareness of when a slip-angle is building up (the angle of a wheel relative to its direction of travel) -- in simple terms, the feel of how much grip is left. A short, wide contact patch can also lead to tramlining over ridges in the road, because there are greater leverages acting on the tyre’s shoulders owing to their greater distance from the steering axis, and there’s less force to pull the tyre straight. Relatively narrow tyres with flexible sidewalls give the best ride comfort and the broadest, if not the crispest, range of steering feel. Wide tyres with stiff sidewalls give more precise reactions, but a narrower window between full grip and a visit to the hedge...” "Looks... will always be a potent lure. BMW’s [E36] M3 has wide, very low profile tires because the marketing department decreed it. So, in order to ride decently, it has lots of compliance in its suspension which spoils the sharpness. Back to square one."" -- CAR Magazine, Dec 1997 I've had my 95 since the winter of 94, and it was my first experience with a tire of such a low profile. I've tried many different tire setups on the car but found I liked the MXX3s best largely because they gave me a greater sense of when they were going let go adn seemed to want to get themselves back in line, something I attribute to tires with stong longitudinal ribs... (It's also the reason I prefer the E46 on the narrower 205/50R17s - the car comes alive; the steerig is more comunicative, you can spend more time near the limit. those of you who hate the E46 should give a narrower tired version a try - Bangle's big wheels are far more grevious than his bodystyling in my book). If you're used to cars like the Miata or the Cooper or any BMW that came before the Zlink rear axle, handling to you means a car that can be driven to the limit and beyond without your heart skipping a beat. I've only been to a few DEs with my 95, but I can tell you that I am FAR more comfortable in a non M E36 car near the limit on the street - and in some ways find a bog basic 318i more fun in terms of its handling because you can spend more of your time drifting, thanks to the 185/65R15s, the light nose, the reduced intertia... I never wish my car felt like a mustang but even at the track, I often wished for less grip so I could practice how the car would behave at the limit for more of the time - cornering on rails is great in the brochure, but it leads to a population of drivers who have little opportunity to develop their car control skills. drivign these cars fast is more a matter of trust than skill in many cases. If some of the M3 drivers that have limited track experience find the M3 more intimidating, let's not blame them - the M3 is a street car first... You can't dismiss that the M3 is a car that gives you little practice in real car control - it's grip levels are so high you rearely can exceed them, and yes when it does let go we're dealing with a great deal of kinetic energy. this is one of the reasons many of the British journalists panned the E36 M3 3.0 and 3.2 chassis as having more grip than handling. But again it comes down to what they;re used ot and where they drive: the British like a car that feels poised and adjustable at lower speeds, regardless of surface texture, while the Germans (and track junkies) like the high speed stability, grip reserves etc. that comes from the Nordschleiffe development time. : ) sorry to go on and on, just think this is a case where we have to agree to disagree. I love my M3 - I just think its more appropriate and enjoyable at driver's events, which is something like buying an SUV for the occasional 2day camping trip. |daanesh |95 M3 3.0 |stock chassis, MXX3s _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Re: Best Handling Car - it *does* depend - on a lot - from Dave Spragg
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:50:40 -0400 From: "Dave Spragg" <dspragg@attbi.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Best Handling Car - it *does* depend - on a lot Something I feel many are looking at here and stating in various forms I want to state again... Because I like hearing myself type. :) The E36M3 is set up in stock form to hold very, very well in medium to high speed turns. So high in fact that when it does exceed the limits you are already going very fast compared to the max potential of any car on the same tires without ground effects... This makes for little room to goof. That said I think most would agree that it "handles" very well because it reaches these lofty heights without getting loose quite easily where as a Miata or S2000 would require more finesse to reach this point without any slipping and sliding. They will do it but you need to understand and use the car more precisely to achieve the same g-levels. This compares very directly to high ultimate grip DOT track tires like the Hoosiers and BFG gForce R1s which can seriously hook up and then break loose "suddenly" to the uninitiated. Similarly if you attempt to learn to slide a motorcycle through turns or throttle steer one with high end or track rubber you will more likely wind up on your ass than if you try it with Cheng Shins. The amount of suspension travel combined with the effectiveness of the M3 can make this even harder for lesser skilled drivers as when the car finally breaks loose the weight transfer that occurs confuses those not used to it. I have found for myself and many of my students that this is one area where a lower, stiffer suspension actually makes saving such slides easier even if inducing them with too brisk inputs is easier. I can drive an M3 sideways, I can throttle steer one at anything under 100mph and sometimes over if there are some bumps in the surface to help loosen the car, I can induce controlled oversteer 3-4 times and understeer 3-4 times in just one entry into Big Bend at Lime Rock easily and often do to demonstrate to fellow racers and friends. If you learn the car it's pretty easy. I have only spun my race car once during a test day at the track and never during a driver's school or race event. Once again... It allows you to go REALLY fast in a turn on xyz tires before it even moves but when it does you need to be ready. I have had a lot of "expert" students like Juan and would welcome working with him in his car for a day if only to see if anything is really wrong with his cool ride. ;) Note: I have thoroughly flogged and slid E30 M3's, E36 M3's (and other E36s), E46 M3's, Miatas, 360 Modenas, 355's, E39 M5's, all sort of 911's, modern Corvettes, Integras, WRX's, nearly every AMG made, M-Coupes, Celicas, Mustangs, and quite a few more I can't think of now with all manner of tires, suspensions, forced induction and all that stuff as well as bone stock. E36 318's ARE a blast to drive on the track in stock form and only get more fun with additional suspension. :) I still have tons to learn and am loving every minute even though it's not as fun as when I learned a ton at every new track day. Dave Spragg dave@spragg.com 99 M3 street 92 318is #330 IP (95 M3 engine and suspension) -----Original Message----- From: daanesh chanduwadia [mailto:daanesh@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:16 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Re: Best Handling Car - it *does* depend - on a lot Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:07:57 -0400 From: "daanesh chanduwadia" <daanesh@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Best Handling Car - it *does* depend - on a lot I think Juan makes a good point about the M3's handling, and as much as I hate to admit it, it comes down to "it all depends on what you're used to." Sounds spineless, and that's all I took it for when it was uttered by a former coworker - he used to pull this out any time I had him backied into a corner when he was arguing that Audis were dynamic equals to BMWs, just set up for different preferences. (I thought he was delusional to think VW/Audis were any better than mediocre in any dynamic measurement or in the weighting/consistency of their controls). But you have to appreciate his point - it depends on what kind of cars you've experienced and where you've had the opportunity to experience them - in other words what kind of car you associate with handling.... the Miata/Elan/E30 formula is quite different than that of say a corvette or an E34M5 or E36M3 - the former are more 'enertaining', the later more 'capable'. one car can't be all things (although the variability of the upcoming 5series is bringing us closer). also, let's not forget that we're all talking about different cars - to a point. there's the 3.0 and the 3.2 setup, and by now few people are still on their MXX3s or Pilot SPorts or what have you - we tend to throw away OEM tires in pursuit of more grip, and forget that one of the reasons OEM tires become OEM is that they're easy to drive near the limit. and how many of the lst members are talking abot stock suspended M3 3.2s as C&D was? And as others have pointed out the amount of rear toe or the condition/type of RTAB cannot be ignored - the Zaxle is meant to stabilize the car by inducing toe in when loaded upin a corner or when there is a torque reversal in the driveline - some of us may have eliminated or reduced that safety net. there's also the matter of the lower profile tires and their inherent characteristics; I think this except frames the issue well: ""Round black things, made of synthetic rubber? Yes. Likely to be broader of tread and shallower of sidewall if fitted to a rapid car that has lots of roadholding? Yes. It makes the car look better, more like a track racer. But let's get our priorities right. A wide tyre looks good, of course. But it's wide so that more rubber can touch the road, which means more grip. This sounds obvious, but it's not a linear relationship if width against roadholding against driving pleasure. A certain amount of weight per unit of tread area is needed to ensure reliable grip when the road surface is slippery, and too much lightly-laden width also causes the tyre's contact patch to be the wrong shape. If that patch is wider than it is long, there's less self-aligning force acting on the wheel as it rotates. This reduces both the steering's self-centering and the driver's awareness of when a slip-angle is building up (the angle of a wheel relative to its direction of travel) -- in simple terms, the feel of how much grip is left. A short, wide contact patch can also lead to tramlining over ridges in the road, because there are greater leverages acting on the tyre's shoulders owing to their greater distance from the steering axis, and there's less force to pull the tyre straight. Relatively narrow tyres with flexible sidewalls give the best ride comfort and the broadest, if not the crispest, range of steering feel. Wide tyres with stiff sidewalls give more precise reactions, but a narrower window between full grip and a visit to the hedge..." "Looks... will always be a potent lure. BMW's [E36] M3 has wide, very low profile tires because the marketing department decreed it. So, in order to ride decently, it has lots of compliance in its suspension which spoils the sharpness. Back to square one."" -- CAR Magazine, Dec 1997 I've had my 95 since the winter of 94, and it was my first experience with a tire of such a low profile. I've tried many different tire setups on the car but found I liked the MXX3s best largely because they gave me a greater sense of when they were going let go adn seemed to want to get themselves back in line, something I attribute to tires with stong longitudinal ribs... (It's also the reason I prefer the E46 on the narrower 205/50R17s - the car comes alive; the steerig is more comunicative, you can spend more time near the limit. those of you who hate the E46 should give a narrower tired version a try - Bangle's big wheels are far more grevious than his bodystyling in my book). If you're used to cars like the Miata or the Cooper or any BMW that came before the Zlink rear axle, handling to you means a car that can be driven to the limit and beyond without your heart skipping a beat. I've only been to a few DEs with my 95, but I can tell you that I am FAR more comfortable in a non M E36 car near the limit on the street - and in some ways find a bog basic 318i more fun in terms of its handling because you can spend more of your time drifting, thanks to the 185/65R15s, the light nose, the reduced intertia... I never wish my car felt like a mustang but even at the track, I often wished for less grip so I could practice how the car would behave at the limit for more of the time - cornering on rails is great in the brochure, but it leads to a population of drivers who have little opportunity to develop their car control skills. drivign these cars fast is more a matter of trust than skill in many cases. If some of the M3 drivers that have limited track experience find the M3 more intimidating, let's not blame them - the M3 is a street car first... You can't dismiss that the M3 is a car that gives you little practice in real car control - it's grip levels are so high you rearely can exceed them, and yes when it does let go we're dealing with a great deal of kinetic energy. this is one of the reasons many of the British journalists panned the E36 M3 3.0 and 3.2 chassis as having more grip than handling. But again it comes down to what they;re used ot and where they drive: the British like a car that feels poised and adjustable at lower speeds, regardless of surface texture, while the Germans (and track junkies) like the high speed stability, grip reserves etc. that comes from the Nordschleiffe development time. : ) sorry to go on and on, just think this is a case where we have to agree to disagree. I love my M3 - I just think its more appropriate and enjoyable at driver's events, which is something like buying an SUV for the occasional 2day camping trip. |daanesh |95 M3 3.0 |stock chassis, MXX3s _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************