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#1. Re: More headroom with racing seat? - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:18:28 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: More headroom with racing seat? on 10/28/03 11:29 PM, Jim Bassett <jim@jimbassett.com> wrote: > And, as far as the BMW CCA schools that I've been to are concerned, as long > as there is *equal* restraints for the passenger/instructor you're fine > (i.e 4-point harnesses on the passenger side as well). This may vary from > chapter to chapter, so YMMV. There's no may about it: these regs do vary from BMW CCA Chapter to Chapter. I'd advise anyone planning harness installation for track use to find out what the requirements are of the track day organizers they plan to run with. (I mention this as the person who wrote the Hoosier Chapter rules. We require a roll bar with 5/6 point harnesses; we allow 4 point harnesses without a rollbar if they have a release device such as the Schroth ASM.) on 10/29/03 8:39 AM, "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> wrote: > To this I have but two quick points: > > One, it's not like Joe Marko and HMS Motorsport have any interest in > selling Schroth 4 point harnesses, now do they (tongue firmly inserted > in cheek here)? Pat, if you knew Joe Marko you wouldn't say that. However for the more cynical among you, I'll point out that HMS sells not only harnesses, but roll bars. I'd say any commercial considerations are pretty much covered no matter what. > Two, even if "According to him the failure mode of having the whole > roof collapse in a roll-over at a DE is exceedingly rare", I again ask, > "Are you willing to take the risk of being THE ONE RARE EXAMPLE" when it > does happen? All use of street-legal cars on the track is a question of compromise. Among those accidents which do occur, impacts with a fixed barrier constitute the overwhelming majority, rollovers are much less frequent, and rollovers with major roof collapse are exceedingly rare. Compared to a stock lap/diagonal, any harness is likely to offer: - Vastly better protection in a frontal impact - Upper body protection in a lateral impact (vs. very little for stock). - Probably somewhat better protection in the rebound phase of a rear impact. - Better protection in a rollover without major roof collapse, where a stock belt *will* allow your head to contact the roof. Against these benefits you must weigh the arguable, but unproven and undemonstrated, risk regarding the unlikely occurrence of total roof collapse. So like Pat I agree about considering the risks, but come to a different conclusion. I place my bet where I get the most benefit in the most likely scenario. As an instructor I can't imagine getting into a student car and failing to use a harness that's there (assuming otherwise proper installation, etc.). BTW, I should mention that my own car has a rollbar and 6 point harnesses. However that's not a practical option for everyone. Damn, it's that compromise thing again... Neil 96 M3
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#2. RE: [E36M3] More headroom with racing seat? - from Patrick Buthmann
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:27:14 -0500 From: "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> Subject: RE: [E36M3] More headroom with racing seat? You really have to watch out for those guys who drive E30 M3s....they're the biggest hazards of all :) Pat -----Original Message----- From: Walter Jordan [mailto:wbj12@rcn.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 10:20 AM To: E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] More headroom with racing seat? Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:15:20 -0500 From: "Walter Jordan" <wbj12@rcn.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] More headroom with racing seat? > Think of it this way (as someone who regularly sits in the passenger seat); how much of a > risk are you willing to take with the student at the controls? Funny, the only personal off-track experience I've had where there was car damage occurred at Summit. My instructor was driving, in HIS E30 M3, 5pt harnesses, racing seats, no bar/cage. ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm ************************************************* ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#3. RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars - from DocWyte
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:50:01 -0800 (PST) From: DocWyte <josh_wyte@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars Patrick, I don't doubt that accidents happen on the track. However, beyond anecdoctal evidence, you've offered NO evidence that 4 point harnesses cause more injuries when used without a 4 point roll bar. Until you can, all you've offered is your opinion. Your main example has nothing to do with 4 point harnesses vs 3 point OEM belts, only that in that instance, a full cage and 6 point belts would've been helpful. Using that instance, I'm surprised your club doesn't make people run dedicated track cars with full cages, 6 point harnesses and fire suppression systems and full Nomex clothing. I'm comfortable in using my 4 point harnesses without a rollbar, as no-one has *proven* that they'll cause more injuries in a rollover than if I'd been wearing the OEM 3 point belts. -josh --- Patrick Buthmann <patrick@teutonic.ca> wrote: > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:52:51 -0500 > From: "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and > rollbars > > Josh, > > As I said earlier, come up here, and I'll introduce > you to one > of our *former* instructors (his name is Doug). He > was involved in a > rollover at the bottom of turn 2 at Mosport with a > student a few years > back, in which the roof caved in. He no longer > instructs because of > the experience. Yes, the car he was in only had > the stock seat > belts.... > > What more evidence do I need, beyond providing at > least ONE > EXAMPLE in which the possibility of death or extreme > injury occurred? > > If you wish to continue using your 4-point > harnesses and believe > you (and they) are infallible, then go right ahead. > My point continues > to be this: Don't ever attempt to run at one of our > schools here, as we > simply WILL NOT LET YOU USE THEM. > > My point to Som (the original purpose behind all of > this) is > that: > > A) A true racing bucket provides more laterel > support than any > set of harnesses > B) Many schools will not allow the use of 4/5/6 > point harnesses > without at least a 1/2 cage > C) Rollovers DO happen, and roofs DO get crushed > in, despite > industry *experts* like Joe Marko stating that it's > unlikely that they > ever do. > > > Look, as a guy who has done driving schools for > several years, run both > open wheel (F-2000) and closed wheel (my 325is) race > cars, there is one > inevitable truth. At some point, you WILL go off > the track, and at > some point you WILL find yourself out of control. > > So far this year, I've seen: > > 1 car OVER the wall, 1 partial and 1 complete > (actually, twice) > rollover, one car upside down partially over the > wall (sitting on it's > roof and front bumper), and these were all DRIVING > SCHOOL EVENTS. The > list of things I encounter on race weekends (myself > included) is far, > far longer. > > > Pat > ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
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#4. 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars - from Dorffer, Rich
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:51:16 -0500 From: "Dorffer, Rich" <RDORFFER@CleIndians.com> Subject: 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars > As I said earlier, come up here, and I'll introduce you to one > of our *former* instructors (his name is Doug). He was involved in a > rollover at the bottom of turn 2 at Mosport with a student a few years > back, in which the roof caved in. He no longer instructs because of > the experience. Yes, the car he was in only had the stock seat > belts.... > > What more evidence do I need, beyond providing at least ONE > EXAMPLE in which the possibility of death or extreme injury occurred? This may sound kind of silly, but the accident you describe was in a stock car with stock seatbelts where the instructor was nearly killed or nearly suffered an extreme injury but didn't and no longer instructs as a result (correct me if I am wrong). This doesn't really prove anything related to the use of 4 point harnesses causing more harm to the individuals using them in cars involved in rollovers which is Josh's point. If your point is "shit happens" and a car involved in a DE can have a roof caved in, I would agree. But, shit happens all the time. I think my drive to and from work is more fraught with peril every day. Regards, Rich
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#5. Re: Harnesses and rollbars - from Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:01:13 -0500 From: <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> Subject: Re: Harnesses and rollbars I was at Lime Rock last Friday, and saw an instructor roll a 944 Turbo on the warm up lap while under yellow. Apparently a minor miscue while trying to warm the tires up was all it took. We were all relieved to see him crawl out of the upside down car....which had a roll cage. Regards, Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net Phone: (413) 599-0399 Fax: (413) 599-0421 Excell.Net Owner/Operator http://www.Excell.Net/ 928 Owners Club President http://www.928OC.org/ 928Racing.net Team Member http://www.928Racing.net/ "Liberty once lost is lost forever." - John Adams
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#6. Harness debate....another wrinkle - from Brad Ahrens
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:20:58 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Ahrens <txsaggie97@yahoo.com> Subject: Harness debate....another wrinkle While were are debating harnesses I thought I would ask about / throw in another wrinkle... Many of you are saying just getting aftermarket seats for extra support and keep the stock belts in a non-roll bar car. I seem to recall someone mentioning that they don't recommend a shell either without a bar being as the stock seat backs will often collapse in a rollover providing instant headroom whereas a racing shell will not. Of course I can think of plenty of other times where I certainly don't want my seats breaking and causing further injury such as a rear end collision etc.- I think I even remember seeing some Discovery channel video of that and the results to test dummies. Just looking for comments. I do recall seeing broken seat backs in many (all?) of the stock seat rollover pics I have seen. This is of personal interest as I have Sparco 2s in my street car. I also have a 4pt clip harness in that I use for Auto-x. (Unfortunately I have not had time to make the decision about whether to use it at a track event...will prob try it with the 3pt stockers first) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
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#7. RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars - from Patrick Buthmann
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:35:44 -0500 From: "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars Josh, My main example has everything to do with the fact that DOUG'S HEAD WOULD HAVE BEEN HOLDING UP THE CAR, IF HE WAS WEARING A 4 POINT HARNESS! It's literally as simple as that. With the stock belt, both he and the student were able to slide to the middle, and avoid having their helmets permanently attached. What I'm trying to avoid here is having you, Josh, or someone else on this list being the first one to "prove" that 4 point harnesses are unsafe in a roll over situation. Just because something hasn't happened yet to you, doesn't mean that you should encourage it to happen. As to Neil's point, I'm not convinced that harnesses provide any better protection from side impacts than do the stock belts, and I'll dispute any suggestion that they are superior in a roll over situation by preventing contact with the roof. If properly worn, a stock 3 point shouldn't allow you to leave the seat and contact the roof in a roll over either, while still allowing the possibility of sliding to the middle in the event of roof collapse. There are a couple of other key points to all of this. As a key member of our club, where does one draw the line? Since our club allows both BMWs and non-BMWs to participate, do we allow ONLY the Schroth 4-point harnesses in an E36 M3, but not if someone shows up with a late model Camaro? Can anyone here GUARANTEE the structural integrity of an E36 M3's roof, much less that of any other car? I certainly don't want to find out myself, nor do I want to hear about some tragic event in which somebody off this list is severely injured because of "unproven allegations". All that we need is one example to prove the allegations, and in order to do so, someone has to lose their life. It's not a price I'm willing to pay. We all agree there are numerous risks associated with high performance driving; the idea is to minimize those risks as much as possible, not flaunt them. Pat -----Original Message----- From: DocWyte [mailto:josh_wyte@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 10:59 AM To: E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:50:01 -0800 (PST) From: DocWyte <josh_wyte@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars Patrick, I don't doubt that accidents happen on the track. However, beyond anecdoctal evidence, you've offered NO evidence that 4 point harnesses cause more injuries when used without a 4 point roll bar. Until you can, all you've offered is your opinion. Your main example has nothing to do with 4 point harnesses vs 3 point OEM belts, only that in that instance, a full cage and 6 point belts would've been helpful. Using that instance, I'm surprised your club doesn't make people run dedicated track cars with full cages, 6 point harnesses and fire suppression systems and full Nomex clothing. I'm comfortable in using my 4 point harnesses without a rollbar, as no-one has *proven* that they'll cause more injuries in a rollover than if I'd been wearing the OEM 3 point belts. -josh --- Patrick Buthmann <patrick@teutonic.ca> wrote: > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:52:51 -0500 > From: "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and > rollbars > > Josh, > > As I said earlier, come up here, and I'll introduce > you to one > of our *former* instructors (his name is Doug). He > was involved in a > rollover at the bottom of turn 2 at Mosport with a > student a few years > back, in which the roof caved in. He no longer > instructs because of > the experience. Yes, the car he was in only had > the stock seat > belts.... > > What more evidence do I need, beyond providing at > least ONE > EXAMPLE in which the possibility of death or extreme > injury occurred? > > If you wish to continue using your 4-point > harnesses and believe > you (and they) are infallible, then go right ahead. > My point continues > to be this: Don't ever attempt to run at one of our > schools here, as we > simply WILL NOT LET YOU USE THEM. > > My point to Som (the original purpose behind all of > this) is > that: > > A) A true racing bucket provides more laterel > support than any > set of harnesses > B) Many schools will not allow the use of 4/5/6 > point harnesses > without at least a 1/2 cage > C) Rollovers DO happen, and roofs DO get crushed > in, despite > industry *experts* like Joe Marko stating that it's > unlikely that they > ever do. > > > Look, as a guy who has done driving schools for > several years, run both > open wheel (F-2000) and closed wheel (my 325is) race > cars, there is one > inevitable truth. At some point, you WILL go off > the track, and at > some point you WILL find yourself out of control. > > So far this year, I've seen: > > 1 car OVER the wall, 1 partial and 1 complete > (actually, twice) > rollover, one car upside down partially over the > wall (sitting on it's > roof and front bumper), and these were all DRIVING > SCHOOL EVENTS. The > list of things I encounter on race weekends (myself > included) is far, > far longer. > > > Pat > ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Taylor Autosport http://www.taylorautosport.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com BMW M3 Specialties http://www.jt-designs.com Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#8. Admin notice: List Etiquette - from Sue Kraft
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:39:31 -0600 From: Sue Kraft <suekraft@new.rr.com> Subject: Admin notice: List Etiquette Hi all, Out of courtesy for those who get the digest version of the list, I'd like to remind everyone to please remember to trim your posts of any excess baggage before sending them in. It only takes a few seconds for a quick look before you hit send to make sure you have removed the footers and any unnecessary quoted text so the digesters don't have to wade through all of it over and over again to read the list. I see some of you are very diligent about doing this, but a few others have been getting a bit sloppy lately. I'm sure the digesters will be much appreciative. Thanks! Suzy
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#9. Re: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars - from Robert Chay
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:24:31 -0500 From: "Robert Chay" <rclists@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars I think there's a big difference between a racing 4 pt harness and the Schroth 4pt. The ASM does help move out of the way in case of a crushing roof but the seat will also give. I use Schroth Rally 4 and they work well with stock seats. I think Josh just wants to know for sure he'll be the first with Schroth 4pts to get killed in a rollover and not be just a statistic<g>. Seriously, I think he just wants to know if there's a disproportionate amount of injuries/deaths using the Schroth (not their racing) 4pt harness. There's always a certain amount of risk with all safety devices. Airbags we forced on the driving public because there's too many idiots driving around w/o seatbelts. Of course there's people who have been saved by them but there are a lot of people seriously injured and/or killed by them as well. Obviously far fewer deaths but it still happens. My point is there are certain conditions where it will either save your life or kill you. Make an informed decision and live with it. -Bobby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> > > Josh, > > My main example has everything to do with the fact that DOUG'S > HEAD WOULD HAVE BEEN HOLDING UP THE CAR, IF HE WAS WEARING A 4 POINT > HARNESS! It's literally as simple as that. With the stock belt, both > he and the student were able to slide to the middle, and avoid having > their helmets permanently attached. > <snip> > > Pat >
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#10. [E36M3] Airbags.... and seatbelts - from Walter Jordan
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:39:58 -0500 From: "Walter Jordan" <wbj12@rcn.com> Subject: [E36M3] Airbags.... and seatbelts Since we are having a Safety day it seems... I have heard that newer cars employ a restraint system that has the airbag and seat belt working together such that the seatbelt "expects" the bag to deploy and is designed with more give than older non-airbag systems. Can anyone confirm this? I am planning to install a non-airbag wheel and was wondering if I needed to use a different belt system as well to keep my marbles off of the windshield/wheel in case of unexpected drama.