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#1. Show a little consideration. - from Zachary Eyler-Walker
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:49:52 -0500 (EST) From: Zachary Eyler-Walker <zwalker@cs.utk.edu> Subject: Show a little consideration. Without naming any names, would it kill you guys to snip irrelevant quoted text from your replies? There is almost never a time when it makes sense to quote a hundred lines for your two (or even hundred) line response.. Thanks, Zach
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#2. RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars - from DocWyte
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:57:29 -0800 (PST) From: DocWyte <josh_wyte@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars Pat, I think it's time to agree to disagree here. :-) Until I see positive data (not opinion or conjecture) that a 4 point harness is more dangerous to wear than a stock 3 point harness in a roll-over, I will continue to wear my 4 point harness. If that precludes me from participating in your clubs events, so be it. -josh --- Patrick Buthmann <patrick@teutonic.ca> wrote: > Josh, > > My main example has everything to do with the fact > that DOUG'S > HEAD WOULD HAVE BEEN HOLDING UP THE CAR, IF HE WAS > WEARING A 4 POINT > HARNESS! It's literally as simple as that. With > the stock belt, both > he and the student were able to slide to the middle, > and avoid having > their helmets permanently attached. > > snippity-snip > > Pat > ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
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#3. RE: 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars - from BOOM,BILL (HP-Roseville,ex1)
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:07:03 -0500 From: "BOOM,BILL (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <bill.boom@hp.com> Subject: RE: 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars > From: "Patrick Buthmann" <patrick@teutonic.ca> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars > > My main example has everything to do with the fact that DOUG'S > HEAD WOULD HAVE BEEN HOLDING UP THE CAR, IF HE WAS WEARING A 4 POINT > HARNESS! You have no way of knowing that. The 4 pt harness does allow for significant slouching/downward movement (unlike a setup with an anti-submarine strap, but we're not talking about a 5- or 6-pt setup here), and for sideways movement if it had ASM stitching that had opened up. But even if you could prove your above contention the fact remains, as others have pointed out, that the vast majority of possible impact scenarios are made safer by a 4-pt, even if the rollover-and-roof-crush scenario is not. > From: "Robert Chay" <rclists@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] 4 point Schroth harnesses and rollbars > > I think there's a big difference between a racing 4 pt harness and the > Schroth 4pt. The ASM does help move out of the way in case of > a crushing roof... Perhaps, but I wouldn't rely on that happening: My understanding is that the ASM stictching only gives way in the case of a frontal impact. In a rollover, you would have to hope there was a significant frontal impact before the roll. - Bill
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#4. M3 prices - from eevans@planetc.com
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:14:33 -0500 From: eevans@planetc.com Subject: M3 prices Mike, The reality is that I AM going to have to lower my price. I think the car is worth at least $17250, but once again it's what the market says. What's that saying about perception being reality. The OBD ll cars out there can be had for just a few pennies more, but the OBD l cars do at least have that going for them. It's very easy to bolt on 25HP in about 30 minutes on a '95 OBD l. Here's hoping that someone does their home work and realizes that it's worth a few extra bucks on a car like mine knowing that they won't have to put a dime into it. Every car I've ever purchased always had at least a couple of issues that needed to be resolved right away. Most of our (enthusiasts) cars are either sold w/ full disclosure or everything is fixed or replaced before the sale. Those low teen cars can't match that. By the time someone buys a cheaper M3 and fixes everything that $17K car starts to look pretty good considering all of the $s and down time to get that "great deal" up to par. Evan Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:11:03 -0500 From: "Michael Lawrence" <95m3ltw@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [uuc] E36 M3 FS ?s Evan, you have sold enough things to realize, the M3 is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, no more, no less. I think $15k for a 8yr old car that sold for $35k new is a very good price, and lots of other high end buyers would be happy to have that resale value. Ask any Jag or Saab owner. I personally have seen nice E36 M3s for as little as $10-12k and I would expect any 8yr old car to have some issues, thats part of the deal with buying an old car. If it was a low production car or something truly rare, then it would be expected to hold a higher value. But they are none of the above, it is just a very good sports sedan that still is sought after which has helped its value. But given the age, new model out etc, the type of buyer for the car has changed, the price has dropped to reflect such and the only M3s that will command higher than normal prices will be the LTWs, special ordered cars, all cloth, rare colors, garage queens etc. Owning a great example is actually a tough sell in a market today. Since people are price shopping, a nice example will get overlooked when there are 10 other M3s at 11-13k. Plus, when you are asking $18k and I can go buy a 98-99 model in as good or better shape due to newer age, better options etc, which one would you buy? Not a slam, good luck selling it but its just a fact of life when selling something, the market decides the price. I sold my 95 in 2000 for $20k. If I had sold it in 99 or early 2000, I could have taken a couple offers of $25k or better. Sucks to lose $5k in a matter of 9 months. Mike
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#5. Re: Admin notice: List Etiquette - from cardinar@bellsouth.net
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:36:26 -0500 From: <cardinar@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Admin notice: List Etiquette Thank you Sue!!! You took the words right out of my mouth. Now back to the lively harness/roll bar debate! Rick e36M3 > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:39:31 -0600 > From: Sue Kraft <suekraft@new.rr.com> > Subject: Admin notice: List Etiquette > > Hi all, > > Out of courtesy for those who get the digest version of the list, I'd > like to remind everyone to please remember to trim your posts of any > excess baggage before sending them in. It only takes a few seconds for a > quick look before you hit send to make sure you have removed the footers > and any unnecessary quoted text so the digesters don't have to wade > through all of it over and over again to read the list. I see some of > you are very diligent about doing this, but a few others have been > getting a bit sloppy lately. I'm sure the digesters will be much > appreciative. Thanks! > > Suzy > > >
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#6. Seatbelts and harnesses - from Bob Stommel
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:23:36 -0500 From: Bob Stommel <rstommel@iquest.net> Subject: Seatbelts and harnesses Interesting discussion on seatbelts and harnesses. Here is some more information to add fuel to the fire: 1. Schroth 4-point ASM harnesses are TUV approved in Europe for use on the roadways. So it is unlikely that they are "more dangerous" than the standard 3-point OEM harness. 2. The A-pillar on the E36 coupes is VERY likely to be the first thing to collapse in a rollover of that chassis and in many cases the roof crush extends all the way to the C-pillar (because there is no B-pillar for center support on the coupe, like there is in the sedan). So if you are driving an E36 coupe, you have to weigh the risk of hitting your head on a rollbar on the street versus your cervical spine supplying the support at the absent B-pillar in a rollover if you are using a competition harness. 3. A competition race harness without the sub-strap (i.e. a 4-point race harness) is NOT the same thing as the Schroth 4-point ASM system. The former is simply a poorly executed attempt at using a race harness. The latter was specifically designed to accommodate body twist inward and downward to avoid roof contact during a rollover. This same inward and downward motion occurs with the OEM 3-point seatbelt. 4. The OEM seatbelt for the E36 chassis is designed to take the first single impact and then "relax" to allow body movement and, presumably, extrication from the car. There is a documented incident at Road America a few years ago in which an E36 M3 went off Canada Corner at 100+ MPH, hit the tire wall, hit the concrete wall, and then hit the high embankment behind the wall -- three collisions total. The passenger was using the OEM seatbelt, which relaxed after the first hit. If he hadn't been wearing a full-face helmet, his face probably would not have survived the second and third collisions with the dash. The driver was wearing a Schroth 4-point ASM harness. He suffered only mild bruising on his shoulders and lower abdomen from the force exerted by the harness. 5. And last, but not least, those of you who insist on seeing statistical evidence of the behavior of particular harness designs in rollovers and other collisions before deciding which one to use will be waiting a long time. I've been an instructor, Chief Instructor, and Safety Steward for driving schools since 1994 and as far as I know, nobody is collecting these statistics. You need to make your seatbelt/harness choice based on the type of vehicle you drive, the type and frequency of vehicle use (how many track events per year vs. amount of time driven on the street), the requirements and rules of the particular clubs whose events you attend, and your personal level of risk tolerance. HTH, Bob Stommel SPG Motorsports
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#7. Trade-In scenario: pricing/value - from Newman, Christopher
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:06:07 -0500 From: "Newman, Christopher" <CNewman@LSAC.org> Subject: Trade-In scenario: pricing/value Recently, M3 pricing/value has been discussed. Hypothetically, suppose someone paid cash and owns an E46 M3 now valued at $40,000. They later see an E36 M3 for sale at a local dealer that they like better. It is listed at $20,000. How would a trade-in work in this scenario ? Could the E46 owner trade-in the $40,000 car, use half to pay for the E36, and then expect a check from the dealer for the other $20,000 ? Or would the E46 have to be sold privately ? I'm curious because I can't imagine everyone always trades to a more-expensive vehicle. Thanks for any thoughts.
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#8. [E36M3] TC Kline camber plates - question - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:35:11 -0500 From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: [E36M3] TC Kline camber plates - question Group, I will be having the adjustable TC Kline camber plates installed this Friday. By the instructions, it says to set the street camber to -2 degrees with 1/16" toe-in and that will give you -3.5 degrees with 1/16" toe-in when fully adjusted. This seems like too much negative camber(can't believe I just said that) for my Kumho Ecsta V700's. Yes, no??? I was thinking more like -1.5 for the street then -2.5 for autoxing. Yes, no??? Any input greatly appreciated. Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Trade-In scenario: pricing/value - from Jason Knight
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:40:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Knight <knight2244@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Trade-In scenario: pricing/value They would have to buy your car from you, and then you would buy the other car from them. It would probably be handled as two separate transactions. In this hypothetical situation I would imagine that our hypothetical fellow or fellowette would be buying high (on the e36 m3), and selling low (on the e46 m3). Since dealerships are in the business of making money (and from what they pay for the software that my company produces and markets they appear to be doing quite well), they have a lot of experience doing just that, and would probably come out ahead in this scenario. Probably not quicker, but probably much more economically sound, to pursue this in the open market with private parties. At least that's my take. --- "Newman, Christopher" <CNewman@LSAC.org> wrote: > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:06:07 -0500 > From: "Newman, Christopher" <CNewman@LSAC.org> > Subject: Trade-In scenario: pricing/value > > > Recently, M3 pricing/value has been discussed. > Hypothetically, suppose someone paid cash and owns > an E46 M3 now valued at > $40,000. > They later see an E36 M3 for sale at a local dealer > that they like better. > It is listed at $20,000. > How would a trade-in work in this scenario ? > Could the E46 owner trade-in the $40,000 car, use > half to pay for the E36, > and then expect > a check from the dealer for the other $20,000 ? Or > would the E46 have to be > sold privately ? > I'm curious because I can't imagine everyone always > trades to a > more-expensive vehicle. > Thanks for any thoughts.
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#10. Re: [E36M3] TC Kline camber plates - question - from cteague@cox.net
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:14:47 -0500 From: <cteague@cox.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] TC Kline camber plates - question Bob, I tried autox'ng with 2.5 degrees negative front camber. When I went to 3, I got more front grip, and the car went faster. Temps are better, but still a little hot on the outside. So I will try 3.2-3.3 soon. I have the TCKline camber plates, and TCKline coilovers with DA Koni's. YMMV. Chris 97 M3/4 > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:35:11 -0500 > From: Mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: [E36M3] TC Kline camber plates - question > > Group, > >By the instructions, it says to set the street camber to ->2 degrees with 1/16" toe-in and that will give you -3.5 >degrees with 1/16" toe-in when fully adjusted. This seems >like too much negative camber(can't believe I just said >that) for my Kumho Ecsta V700's. Yes, no??? I was >thinking more like -1.5 for the street then -2.5 for >autoxing. Yes, no???