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#1. Re: Failed Emissions Testing with JC Chip - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:35:28 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Failed Emissions Testing with JC Chip on 10/11/04 12:52 AM, LoweSeaton@aol.com wrote: > I do know from experience that ethylene glycol (i.e., antifreeze) will > quickly ruin a cat [You listening Neil?]. Damn! I did wonder about that. So far so good though, since my OBD-II car will tell me when the cats aren't doing their job any more. Neil 96 M3
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#2. Damage assessment-racing incident-Advice? (kind of long) - from John Phillips
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:59:27 +0000 From: "John Phillips" <jlphil@hotmail.com> Subject: Damage assessment-racing incident-Advice? (kind of long) I went off course at Bay Bottoom Crawl, a unique annual high-speed open road autocross/time trial event in the Florida Keys. No runoff space for mistakes, you're instantly in the mangroves. Tore up the right front fender and destroyed the hood, with lights and assorted plastic parts smashed or gone. Right side sheelmetal messed up, right door skin folded back a bit. Windshield broke. The right sill, under the body, was mangled a bit, mashed in leaving the jacking points in place and intact. Right rear passenger floor was pushed up a bit from underneath. The front bumper did not slide inward from any impacts. The front crossmember supporting the radiator was mangled on the right side. Radiator not visibly damaged or leaking, but the right-side overflow tank was broken loose from it's plastic top piece and pushed back against the engine. Air bags (thankfully) didn't deploy. No human injury other than my pride. All important mechanical bits seem OK, except the cooling system: we couldn't get it to hold pressure after we epoxied the catch tank back together and did our NASCAR imitation trying to repair the car enough to continue competing. We didn't want to risk hurting the engine, so quit the event and went home on the trailer. How do I assess what to do next? I don't know if I hurt the shell too bad to repair, or what is cosmetic and what's critical. Are there some common guidelines others have used to make "next move" type decisions with structurally damaged M3's? I'm confident my engine, tranny, and running gear are still sound. All repairs will be at my expense, this obviously isn't an insured loss, so that's a factor to consider,too. Any advice or reference to other resources will be greatly appreciated! John Phillips, 1995 M3 (previously perfect, now slightly rearranged) FWIW: I've run here 6 years, never put a wheel off. First year with the M3, and no problems until this driving error caused serious consequences. Moral: always be aware there a serious consequences lurking while we play with our cars, use your safety gear and be careful.
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Damage assessment-racing incident-Advice? (kind of long) - from Mount, Mike
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:12:02 -0700 From: "Mount, Mike" <JMMn@pge.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Damage assessment-racing incident-Advice? (kind of long) Having gone through something like this once before after hitting the only wall at Willow Springs, I suggest talking to your friends in the racing community. Clearly you need proper assesment of the damages and costs as well as options. It might be worth buying a shell and then rebuilding. Maybe parting it out is another option. Just last week there were endless moans on this list about '95 M3 dropping down to $10 k or so, so options do exist. To repeat however, it seems a good starting point is a clear picture of the damage and costs to repair. Anyone who's spent time on a racetrack knows or has friends who own bodyshops. Knowing repair shops in the car community is like being on first name basis with the x-ray techs and ER docs at the local hospital for us motorcycle races - dont ask how I know. But use your friends knowledge of repair shops and get an idea of the damage, fix it and then turn that thing back onto the track! Ciao, Mike ps, Florida Keys? And we are supposed to believe there are TURNS in Florida? -----Original Message----- From: John Phillips [mailto:jlphil@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 7:22 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Damage assessment-racing incident-Advice? (kind of long) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:59:27 +0000 From: "John Phillips" <jlphil@hotmail.com> Subject: Damage assessment-racing incident-Advice? (kind of long) I went off course at Bay Bottoom Crawl, a unique annual high-speed open road autocross/time trial event in the Florida Keys. No runoff space for mistakes, you're instantly in the mangroves. Tore up the right front fender and destroyed the hood, with lights and assorted plastic parts smashed or gone. Right side sheelmetal messed up, right door skin folded back a bit. Windshield broke. The right sill, under the body, was mangled a bit, mashed in leaving the jacking points in place and intact. Right rear passenger floor was pushed up a bit from underneath. The front bumper did not slide inward from any impacts. The front crossmember supporting the radiator was mangled on the right side. Radiator not visibly damaged or leaking, but the right-side overflow tank was broken loose from it's plastic top piece and pushed back against the engine. Air bags (thankfully) didn't deploy. No human injury other than my pride. All important mechanical bits seem OK, except the cooling system: we couldn't get it to hold pressure after we epoxied the catch tank back together and did our NASCAR imitation trying to repair the car enough to continue competing. We didn't want to risk hurting the engine, so quit the event and went home on the trailer. How do I assess what to do next? I don't know if I hurt the shell too bad to repair, or what is cosmetic and what's critical. Are there some common guidelines others have used to make "next move" type decisions with structurally damaged M3's? I'm confident my engine, tranny, and running gear are still sound. All repairs will be at my expense, this obviously isn't an insured loss, so that's a factor to consider,too. Any advice or reference to other resources will be greatly appreciated! John Phillips, 1995 M3 (previously perfect, now slightly rearranged) FWIW: I've run here 6 years, never put a wheel off. First year with the M3, and no problems until this driving error caused serious consequences. Moral: always be aware there a serious consequences lurking while we play with our cars, use your safety gear and be careful. ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#4. Re: Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:07:57 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers on 10/10/04 9:44 PM, Thomas E. Tice at tetice@triad.rr.com wrote: > I have considered this option as well but have been advised by some that no > exhaust upgrade/modification will give a significant improvement in power as > long as you have a cat in the system. I don't know how to define 'significant' in this context, and I'm not able to measure it either. I'm sure that the benefits of headers would be greater without the cats, but that's not a reasonable option in most cases. (For racers who want the real deal, be prepared to pony up $2500+ for a complete Kromer Kraft exhaust system.) There's a whole series of restrictions in the exhaust system: manifold, cats, resonators, muffler. Some people seem to believe that reducing the restriction in one element isn't worthwhile as long as the others remain in place, and this really isn't so. The effects are additive, and improving any one of them improves the total system. The only way I can see for this belief to be more or less correct would be if one element in the system were overwhelmingly more restrictive than the others. For instance if the cat had a restriction of 1000 arbitrary units and the muffler 10, then a free-flow muffler obviously wouldn't change much. But I think it reasonable to suppose that BMW engineers things well enough that there are no outrageous pinch points. Even the stock muffler isn't very restrictive. Heavy, yes... Well designed headers work in two ways: they offer low restriction to gas flow, but more importantly they use resonance effects to generate low pressure pulses which help cylinder scavenging. The stock exhaust manifold doesn't pay much attention to the first (butt joints without much blend), and isn't designed for the second at all (longer and equal length pipes would be needed). This is of course why the higher output Euro engine has factory tubular headers instead. There's a venerable book on this subject called "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" by Smith and Morrison which gives much detail on the principles involved, see <http://tinyurl.com/5xhhr>. I'll have a better reading on the benefits after the next track event. > Your experience certainly seems to suggest otherwise...But before I bolt my > stock manifold system back into place, I like to hear from anyone with any > data (dyno before and after, etc.) that can back up Neil's seat of the pants > dyno. Which said, my car is far enough from stock that results may or may not apply to others, and regarding the calibration of my butt dyno I'm afraid I'll have to turn the other cheek... Neil 96 M3
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Re: Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers - from Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:39:13 -0400 From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers >This is of course why the higher output Euro engine has >factory tubular headers instead. There's a venerable book on this subject >called "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" by Smith and Morrison >which gives much detail on the principles involved Neil is there the possibility that with the headers though you may be leaning out your air/fuel mixture like I've heard others report when using the Euro motor headers? A few dyno pulls may be worthwile for piece of mind, heck don't you guys have one on every corner in gasoline alley? ;-) It would be an expensive lesson to learn at the track that's for sure. I added a Nordskog air/fuel gauge to my E30 for sh*ts and giggles (hooked up to the 02 sensor) and I'm not sure how useful it is but it was interesting to watch what it does. After startup not much happening (open loop?), after a few seconds it begins to dither which continues at partial throttle, at WOT it goes into the rich side and stays there until you go back to partial throttle, off throttle would be the only time it would go lean. I wonder if a cheapo gauge like that one can save a motor. Carlos.
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#6. Re: Need O2 sensor - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:52:59 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Need O2 sensor on 10/10/04 9:30 PM, Thomas E. Tice at tetice@triad.rr.com wrote: > I'm close to reinstalling which means all I have now is two O2 sensors > on the manifolds with loose wires and I have no idea which one plugged in > where. Can you share with the group which one goes to which connector. I was afraid you'd go there. I may be the wrong person to ask, for reasons you're all about to find out. After reassembling everything following the headgasket R&R my car starting running rough at low/mid rpm and part throttle. WOT was fine. Fault codes indicated misfire on all cylinders. After checking all the usual things, and a few unusual ones, I broke down and took it to my dealer's (very good) mechanic. The factory diagnostic system reveals much more fault detail than my Peake code reader can. He concluded that the pre-cat O2 sensor connections were inverted. This has the intriguing result of the ECU adaptation having the opposite effect to that intended, such that you'll eventually end up with one bank of cylinders running way lean and the other way rich as the system keeps applying correction that doesn't work, and then applying some more. He also said that he's occasionally seen this on other cars. However I had taken great care NOT to misconnect them, to the point of putting a red paint dot on each end of the rear bank (red=rear) pre-cat O2 sensor harness as ID. My assumption was, and in the absence of other information still is, that the forward connector on the injector harness rail is for the forward bank (1-3) of cylinders, and vice versa. The wires on the engine harness are the same colours, so that's no help. I can't find any confirming or contrary info in either the TIS or Bentley. Anybody know differently? So what was going on in my car? Here's what I suspect. Under the intake manifold I recall two mating pairs of connectors that are keyed the same, such that, like the O2 sensor harnesses, there's no obvious way to tell which goes to which. (Most BMW connectors are keyed to be unique.) What if these actually distinguish each cylinder bank, and Murphy's Law has made me swap them? I can't get to these connectors without removing the intake, and I'm not about to do that again any time soon, so this may remain a mystery. But the fact is that hooking up the rear sensor harness to the forward connector has fixed the problem. The car has been driven through multiple cycles and checked on the dealer system with no faults. So like I said, I may be the wrong person to ask! Neil 96 M3
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Re: Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:54:29 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers on 10/11/04 11:39 AM, Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com at Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com wrote: > Neil is there the possibility that with the headers though you may be leaning > out your air/fuel mixture like I've heard others report when using the Euro > motor headers? Carlos, I don't think that's possible on an OBD-II engine. The pre-cat O2 sensors would detect the lean condition and activate the fuel trim. If the injectors couldn't flow enough to meet the adjustment called for then the ECU would throw a CE light for lean-run misfire. The 3.0L OBD-I M3 engine with its lower flow injectors and no pre-cat sensors might be a different story. Since my Eurosport Cam System includes 24 lb/hr injectors (up from stock 21.5 for the 96+ engine) I don't think the injectors are likely to max out anyway. As it happens I've had the engine on the dealer diagnostic system, which prints out whether each bank of cylinders is running stoichiometric, lean or rich, and I'm OK. (See also my next post about O2 sensor connection.) Neil 96 M3
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: Need O2 sensor - from Chester Wong
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 11:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Need O2 sensor Hmmm...when we did Dave's car we had a lot more out since he was install the S50 intake manifold. We had the same thing except the car wouldn't even hold an idle. Turns out that we left the vacuum hose to the elbow of the intake disconnected... +) Chester --- Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> wrote: > After reassembling everything following the headgasket R&R my car starting > running rough at low/mid rpm and part throttle. WOT was fine. Fault codes > indicated misfire on all cylinders. After checking all the usual things, and > a few unusual ones, I broke down and took it to my dealer's (very good) > mechanic. The factory diagnostic system reveals much more fault detail than > my Peake code reader can. =====
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Re: Need O2 sensor - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:38:47 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Need O2 sensor on 10/11/04 1:34 PM, Chester Wong at chester_p_wong@yahoo.com wrote: > Hmmm...when we did Dave's car we had a lot more out since he was install the > S50 intake manifold. We had the same thing except the car wouldn't even hold > an idle. Turns out that we left the vacuum hose to the elbow of the intake > disconnected... +) Oh yeah, I've done that too in the past. Makes a nice big vacuum leak! And there are three other vacuum hoses under the manifold that are hard to check. Hey, I may not have made all the possible errors - but I'm working on it! But that wasn't it this time. Neil 96 M3
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers - from James Clay
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:03:02 -0400 From: "James Clay" <james@bimmerworld.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Bimmerworld Jet-Hot Shorty Headers Thanks for the post Neil. I have forwarded yourinfo to Jet Hot and they are going to re-examine the OBD II flanges for a better fit. The big gains we have seen from these are on the cars with cams. Dyno results on an OBD I conversion 3.2 showed an 18Hp gain, which honestly I was kind of astounded by. This was a non-cat system. Good headers definitely can produce results even with the cat and I do think 18Hp from these is on the extreme high end, but for some reason the cams like them. James Clay http://www.bimmerworld.com http://www.bimmerworldracing.com Engineered BMW Performance 540.639.9648