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#1. Re: [E36M3] More HIR stuff - from Kent L. Shephard
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:41:45 -0800 From: "Kent L. Shephard" <kents@kls-consulting.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] More HIR stuff Hi, I'm running them in the fogs on my '97. I have HID for headlights and the Silverstar for the fogs. Kent Robert Chay wrote: >Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:09:03 -0500 >From: "Robert Chay" <lists@rchay.com> >Subject: RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff > >Hey Jim! > >I've been hearing that Silverstars are good for about a year on other cars >(4runners). I bought a pair for my 4runner but haven't put them in yet. > >-Bobby > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Powell >> >> >>If what you want is the brightest quality bulb at a >>reasonable price, buy the Silverstars or Cool Blues. Both >>are terrific bulbs. >> >> >>J'A'P >> >> >> > > > >************************************************* >Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > >Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > >DIGEST INFORMATION: >http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >************************************************* > > > > > -- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." 1918, Theodore Roosevelt
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#2. RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff - from M540
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:03:18 -0500 From: "M540" <m540@bellsouth.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff Chalk up another satisfied Silverstar customer. I picked them up at the local auto parts store a year or two and put them in my 911 on a recommendation from someone else. They have a nice white color (without that fake blue look) and seemed brighter to my eyes. Some of that effect was likely from replacing older bulbs though, so YMMV. Oh, my brother just put them in his Integra on my recommendation and really likes them as well. Two (non-BMW) votes. I'd be interesting in trying out the HIR bulbs at 50 cents, $2.50, $7.50, or any reasonable price if anyone can tell me where to find them. $60 a pop is beyond my experimenting pain threshold, however, now that some doubt has been thrown in. I'm all for research and will certainly post what I find for other's knowledge and/or inclusion in the article. Kevin Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:09:03 -0500 From: "Robert Chay" <lists@rchay.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff Hey Jim! I've been hearing that Silverstars are good for about a year on other cars (4runners). I bought a pair for my 4runner but haven't put them in yet. -Bobby
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#3. HIR bulbs and the J'A'P - from Joe Huie
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:10:32 -0800 From: Joe Huie <jhuie@inreach.com> Subject: HIR bulbs and the J'A'P Just to muddy the waters a bit, the Osram Silverstars (European version of U.S. Silverstar) are supposedly better than the Sylvania brand that we have here. I just picked up a set of the Osram H1 version but haven't had a chance to pop them in. You can get them on eBay or at http://www.powerbulbs.co.uk/ (I have no affiliation with powerbulbs). I suspect that the bulb life for the Osram will probably be shorter than the Sylvania. Joe
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#4. RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff - from Robert Chay
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:10:34 -0500 From: "Robert Chay" <lists@rchay.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff These were from other guys with 4runners that weren't getting more than a year with Silverstars. I found out AFTER I bought a pair. I upgraded my M3 lights to ZKWs last summer and they're pretty good. I obviously don't drive nearly as fast as you do. Spun at any tracks lately? ;) -Bobby > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Powell > > I think you just drive so fast Bobby that the photons pile > back up into the > lights and add too much heat ;) > > Jim >
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#5. Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs - from Don Eilenberger
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:12:50 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger <deilenberger@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs At 01:01 PM 3/8/2005, Jim Powell wrote: >I'm just telling you the truth Don. I am painfully blunt. All the time. >You know that. > >Here are the facts: > >The bulb comes from the factory in 9006 bases. No need to pay someone to >modify it. No.... I think you're confused. HIR bulbs come from the factory in a 9011 and 9012 base. Both have larger tabs to prevent use in a 9005/9006 socket. You are wrong here. I can point you to Daniel Sterns pages if you'd like: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/bulb_types/bulb_types.html And some other pages referencing the HIR bulbs: http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3122.html http://fmvss108.tripod.com/light_source_list.htm http://faqlight.carpassion.info/hl-filament-bulbs.htm And for the original GE Patent: http://www.gelighting.com/na/downloads/hir1techsheet1.pdf And GE's original specifications: http://hirheadlights.com/hir%20techsheet.htm >It is cheap. My wholesale price on it is &.50 each. That's what I sell >it for. It costs me $2.12 each. I don't like to carry them because they >burn out to fast. Silverstars which I don't sell are a much much better >bulb for the money. Again - I have to suspect you're referring to something I am not. If you are referring to HIR bulbs (9011/9012) PLEASE tell us WHERE you are getting these wholesale. I can find NO source for them. I have found a few sources for them retail at $104/pair. >Lifetime ratings on various bulbs are subjective. They are typically >rated to be turned on and off much less frequently than actual usage. A >Sylvania Long Life variety bulb, which again I do not sell, is much better. Common' Jim - lifetime ratings are SAE standardized measurements. They are NOT subjective. The Sylvania SilverStar 9006 has a rated lifetime of 150 hours, vs a standard halogen bulb's 320 hours, which is also the rated lifetime of a HIR bulb. The rated output of the SilverStar from Sylvania is identical to the rated output of their standard 9006 bulb. 1700 lumens. (All these numbers are directly from the Sylvania lighting website..) >The main point I want to make is, find someone who isn't screwing you up >the tailpipe for a bulb that costs $0.83 from the factory to the >importer. I would pay .83 for those bulbs. They jump to 2.12 with >packaging in jewel cases and the shipping to the USA. Provide the magic source for these. >I would wholesale it in America in qty of 2 for $7.50 per pair. > >I find it obscene that someone would charge more than $15.00 per pair for >these considering how short their life. Yes, they are bright and turning >them on and off above the rating test sequence is going to make them last >even less. Huh? What exactly does " turning them on and off above the rating test sequence" refer to? The lifetime ratings on the HIR bulbs and normal halogen-tungsten are done at a standardized voltage (14V), and the average hours to failure is measured. The test is actually more severe than real life use since most headlights will rarely see 14V at the bulb. The life ratings of the HIR bulbs and a standard halogen bulb are identical. 9005 vs 9011 and 9006 vs 9012. The same. Identical. >Buy Sylvania Sylverstars for maximum brightness coupled with a long life. >And that's from someone who doesn't even sell them. See: http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProducts/AutomotiveLighting/Products/ProductComparison/default.htm I have the measurements of Sylvania's XtraVision bulbs, which claim 30% vs the 20% they claim for the Silverstar. The 30% in an E36 stock headlight housing is not achieved. I took the measurements. The XtraVision doe gain slightly over a standard Sylvania halogen bulb - which puts out 60 lumens at the brightest point in the pattern. The XtraVision does 70 lumens at the brightest point in the pattern. 70 vs 60 lumens. Do the math. 17%. Since Sylvania claims even less for the US Silverstars - I expect less, but haven't had a pair to test - yet. As a side note - the SilverStar also changes the pattern slightly, and this was determined by grid measurements of the output pattern vs intensity. As far as long-life and Silverstars - that's exactly the opposite from the results that are being posted on the BMW motorcycle groups I belong to. And I'll quote Daniel Stern on the Silverstars: .......................................................................... Why do you specify "Outside North America only" on the SilverStar bulbs? Osram, the well-established German lampmaker, sells a line of automotive bulbs they call "SilverStar". These are Osram's top-of-the-range headlamp bulbs, equivalent to Philips VisionPlus and Tungsram Megalight Premium. They produce the maximum legal amount of light while staying within legal power consumption limits. They have clear glass. Osram bought the well-established American lampmaker Sylvania in the early 1990s, so Osram is now Sylvania's parent company. Sylvania also sells a line of automotive bulbs they call "SilverStar", but it's not the same product at all. These bulbs have a blue coating on them. Light output is of legal levels, but as with all blue-filtered bulbs, you do not get more light from them. The Sylvania SilverStar bulbs have a very short lifetime, because the filament is selected so as to be overdriven. This is necessary because the blue filtration coating "steals" so much light that only an overdriven filament can push enough light through the filter to be legal. The Sylvania SilverStar bulbs are also priced quite high. This is not because they cost a lot to make, and not because they're based on some exotic new technology. It's because the goal with this product is to take market share away from other overpriced bulbs like the PIAA line. For best headlamp performance and best value, choose only bulbs with clear glass. Daniel Stern Lighting (Daniel J. Stern, Proprietor) .......................................................................... >Jim <== Back to setting low expectations for decorum but high >expectations for truth and fair pricing. :) I agree on the low expectations for decorum, but not on the expectation of "truth and fair pricing" It appears painfully obvious to me that you're talking about something other than the Toshiba 9011/HIR1 9012/HIR2 bulbs the rest of us are talking about. I'd have to suspect something like one of the bling/blue bulbs - but dunno since I can't read your mind. I have to assume this due to your reference to "Hyperwhite" which has never come up in any discussion of the HIR bulbs. IF you are talking about HIR bulbs (Halogen Infrared Reflecting) then do us all a favor and grace us with your knowledge of a $0.83 source for them... or even a $10.00 source. If not - as I suspect - you are simply painfully wrong in what you are assuming I'm referring to... not painfully blunt. _______D_o_n__________S_p_r_i_n_g__L_a_k_e__H_t_s____________©1946________ Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ - http://www.njsbmwr.org/ '98 M3c/5, '03 525iT, '87 K75S
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#6. Re: [E36M3] HIR bulbs and the J'A'P - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:15:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] HIR bulbs and the J'A'P On Tue, March 8, 2005 10:06 am, Jim Powell said: > Jim <== Back to setting low expectations for decorum but high > expectations > for truth and fair pricing. :) And all is right with the world. :-) Jim Bassett
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#7. RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff - from Robert Chay
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:32:24 -0500 From: "Robert Chay" <lists@rchay.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] More HIR stuff Heh. At least your spin wasn't all that fast and it was in a turbo M3. I spun on turn 8 at WSIR. There were 50mph gusts but no one believes me about that and I got lots of flak for it. Good to see you're still around :) -Bobby > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Powell > > Too busy with work and travelling for work to go to the track anymore. > > And you can tease me about going off all you like. I went to find my > limits. I always made sure that I ran out of talent before I > ran out of > car. :) > > Jim <== Would spin a tricycle at the track to see what it > could be made to do.
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#8. Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs - from Jim Powell
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:32:35 -0800 From: "Jim Powell" <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs Beats me Don. You obviously know better than me. Or the factory, apparently. This is from last night when I was reading the flare up on this thread again and thought I'd investigate. As for the last what, 7 years you have made a reputation spouting abouting things you don't do on a daily basis. I go to the factory and get you a quote and I'm wrong while you quote another savant. Whatever Don. When you do what I do on a daily basis, we'll talk again. Jim **** Dear Jim, HIR 9006 SB (4000-5000K, life hour 400 hrs) is USD2.12/Pair, minimum order 500pcs HIR 9006 CLEAR (2700K, life hour 300hrs) is USD2.12/Pair, minimum order 500pcs Esther *** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Eilenberger" <deilenberger@yahoo.com> To: "Jim Powell" <jsp98m3@apexcone.com> Cc: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs > At 01:01 PM 3/8/2005, Jim Powell wrote: > >>I'm just telling you the truth Don. I am painfully blunt. All the time. >>You know that. >> >>Here are the facts: >> >>The bulb comes from the factory in 9006 bases. No need to pay someone to >>modify it. > > No.... I think you're confused. > > HIR bulbs come from the factory in a 9011 and 9012 base. Both have larger > tabs to prevent use in a 9005/9006 socket. You are wrong here. I > can point you to Daniel Sterns pages if you'd like: > > http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/bulb_types/bulb_types.html > > And some other pages referencing the HIR bulbs: > > http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3122.html > > http://fmvss108.tripod.com/light_source_list.htm > > http://faqlight.carpassion.info/hl-filament-bulbs.htm > > And for the original GE Patent: > > http://www.gelighting.com/na/downloads/hir1techsheet1.pdf > > And GE's original specifications: > > http://hirheadlights.com/hir%20techsheet.htm > >>It is cheap. My wholesale price on it is &.50 each. That's what I sell >>it for. It costs me $2.12 each. I don't like to carry them because they >>burn out to fast. Silverstars which I don't sell are a much much better >>bulb for the money. > > Again - I have to suspect you're referring to something I am not. > > If you are referring to HIR bulbs (9011/9012) PLEASE tell us > WHERE you are getting these wholesale. I can find NO source > for them. > > I have found a few sources for them retail at $104/pair. > >>Lifetime ratings on various bulbs are subjective. They are typically >>rated to be turned on and off much less frequently than actual usage. A >>Sylvania Long Life variety bulb, which again I do not sell, is much >>better. > > Common' Jim - lifetime ratings are SAE standardized measurements. They are > NOT subjective. > > The Sylvania SilverStar 9006 has a rated lifetime of 150 hours, vs a > standard halogen bulb's 320 hours, which is also the rated lifetime > of a HIR bulb. The rated output of the SilverStar from Sylvania > is identical to the rated output of their standard 9006 bulb. 1700 lumens. > > (All these numbers are directly from the Sylvania lighting website..) > >>The main point I want to make is, find someone who isn't screwing you up >>the tailpipe for a bulb that costs $0.83 from the factory to the importer. >>I would pay .83 for those bulbs. They jump to 2.12 with packaging in >>jewel cases and the shipping to the USA. > > Provide the magic source for these. > >>I would wholesale it in America in qty of 2 for $7.50 per pair. >> >>I find it obscene that someone would charge more than $15.00 per pair for >>these considering how short their life. Yes, they are bright and turning >>them on and off above the rating test sequence is going to make them last >>even less. > > Huh? What exactly does " turning them on and off above the rating > test sequence" refer to? > > The lifetime ratings on the HIR bulbs and normal halogen-tungsten > are done at a standardized voltage (14V), and the average hours to > failure is measured. The test is actually more severe than real > life use since most headlights will rarely see 14V at the bulb. > > The life ratings of the HIR bulbs and a standard halogen bulb > are identical. 9005 vs 9011 and 9006 vs 9012. The same. Identical. > >>Buy Sylvania Sylverstars for maximum brightness coupled with a long life. >>And that's from someone who doesn't even sell them. > > > See: > http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProducts/AutomotiveLighting/Products/ProductComparison/default.htm > > I have the measurements of Sylvania's XtraVision bulbs, which > claim 30% vs the 20% they claim for the Silverstar. The 30% in an > E36 stock headlight housing is not achieved. I took the measurements. > > The XtraVision doe gain slightly over a standard Sylvania halogen bulb - > which puts out 60 lumens at the brightest point in the pattern. > > The XtraVision does 70 lumens at the brightest point in the pattern. > > 70 vs 60 lumens. Do the math. 17%. Since Sylvania claims > even less for the US Silverstars - I expect less, but haven't > had a pair to test - yet. > > As a side note - the SilverStar also changes the pattern slightly, > and this was determined by grid measurements of the output pattern > vs intensity. > > As far as long-life and Silverstars - that's exactly the opposite > from the results that are being posted on the BMW motorcycle groups > I belong to. > > And I'll quote Daniel Stern on the Silverstars: > ......................................................................... > Why do you specify "Outside North America only" on the SilverStar bulbs? > > Osram, the well-established German lampmaker, sells a line of automotive > bulbs they call "SilverStar". These are Osram's top-of-the-range headlamp > bulbs, equivalent to Philips VisionPlus and Tungsram Megalight Premium. > They produce the maximum legal amount of light while staying within legal > power consumption limits. They have clear glass. > > Osram bought the well-established American lampmaker Sylvania in the early > 1990s, so Osram is now Sylvania's parent company. Sylvania also sells a > line of automotive bulbs they call "SilverStar", but it's not the same > product at all. These bulbs have a blue coating on them. Light output is > of legal levels, but as with all blue-filtered bulbs, you do not get more > light from them. The Sylvania SilverStar bulbs have a very short lifetime, > because the filament is selected so as to be overdriven. This is necessary > because the blue filtration coating "steals" so much light that only an > overdriven filament can push enough light through the filter to be legal. > The Sylvania SilverStar bulbs are also priced quite high. This is not > because they cost a lot to make, and not because they're based on some > exotic new technology. It's because the goal with this product is to take > market share away from other overpriced bulbs like the PIAA line. > > For best headlamp performance and best value, choose only bulbs with clear > glass. > Daniel Stern Lighting (Daniel J. Stern, Proprietor) > ......................................................................... > > >>Jim <== Back to setting low expectations for decorum but high >>expectations for truth and fair pricing. :) > > I agree on the low expectations for decorum, but not on the > expectation of "truth and fair pricing" > > It appears painfully obvious to me that you're talking about something > other than the Toshiba 9011/HIR1 9012/HIR2 bulbs the rest of us are > talking about. I'd have to suspect something like one of the > bling/blue bulbs - but dunno since I can't read your mind. I > have to assume this due to your reference to "Hyperwhite" which > has never come up in any discussion of the HIR bulbs. > > IF you are talking about HIR bulbs (Halogen Infrared Reflecting) > then do us all a favor and grace us with your knowledge of a $0.83 > source for them... or even a $10.00 source. > > If not - as I suspect - you are simply painfully wrong in what > you are assuming I'm referring to... not painfully blunt. > > > _______D_o_n__________S_p_r_i_n_g__L_a_k_e__H_t_s____________©1946________ > Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ - http://www.njsbmwr.org/ > '98 M3c/5, '03 525iT, '87 K75S > >
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#9. RE: More HIR stuff - from Don Eilenberger
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:47:28 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger <deilenberger@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: More HIR stuff Jeeze.. > > Do you have any other RETAIL source for these? I couldn't find one > > and would love to add another one to the article. > >When a superior solution presents itself to the market, it usually gets >retailed to death. The lack of retailing for this bulb is indicative of: So this is an admission that you know of NO source for these bulbs at $0.83 or $2.00 or any price? >1. The large warranty exposure on a relatively short lived bulb Same life rating as the Sylvania bulbs you speak highly of. >2. The low cost of comparatively better bulbs for about the same >money. Such as the Sylvania Silverstars I see no data supporting "comparatively better" >3. Bulbs with really very good performance and very nice pricing, >lifetime and warranties are available. Widely. No argument except on performance. I have data on the performance, and quite a bit of anecdotal data on the actual lifetime. >For your article I think it would be a disservice to mention a bulb that >can't be gotten easily and will be almost impossible to get warranty >support for it. Why put off people chasing a bulb they won't find when >there are so many other alternatives available? I pointed them to a source. It can be found. It is superior in light output to any bulb Sylvania manufactures. I am presenting FACT and data in the article - no more, no less. >I have not mentioned any bulb I personally carry. Nor will I. I don't >pay to advertise here. And I don't sell *anything*. I'm was looking for better lighting for my M3. And I thought I'd share what I found. I have no monetary interest in HIR bulbs or the people selling them... or any other bulb or lighting source for that matter. I'm not a vendor. I am an enthusiast, and have been for a very long time. >If what you want is the brightest quality bulb at a reasonable price, buy >the Silverstars or Cool Blues. Both are terrific bulbs. > >If you want something comparable to the Sylvania's in performance with >better warranties, and aggressive pricing, those can be found too. > >Lastly.... yes, my emails tend to be abrupt, almost always blunt and quite >often rude. But you always know where I stand and I always tell the truth >as I see it. "as I see it" - no comment. >Since I import a coupe of million dollars worth of lighting products per >year and travel extensively in Asia on a monthly basis to buy products, I >thouht you might like the real story for your story. >J'A'P I would like the "real story" but I don't see it here. It seems apparent you aren't referring to the same product I am, or if you are, you haven't actually looked at the data available. While I'm very impressed with the millions of dollars of products you import - that doesn't make what you say right by default. This is the last of my responses to you. This has become a non-productive discussion. _______D_o_n__________S_p_r_i_n_g__L_a_k_e__H_t_s____________©1946________ Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ - http://www.njsbmwr.org/ '98 M3c/5, '03 525iT, '87 K75S
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#10. Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs - from Don Eilenberger
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:53:18 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger <deilenberger@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: HIR headlight bulbs Those are NOT the Toshiba 9011 or 9012 bulbs. There are some sources selling standard halogen bulbs with the words "HIR" attached to the packaging.. just like they like to use Xenon and HID. You again have posted on something we were not discussing. The correct designation is 9011/HIR1 and 9012/HIR2 - as per NHTSA Specification 108. At 03:32 PM 3/8/2005, you wrote: >Beats me Don. You obviously know better than me. Or the factory, >apparently. This is from last night when I was reading the flare up on >this thread again and thought I'd investigate. > >As for the last what, 7 years you have made a reputation spouting abouting >things you don't do on a daily basis. I go to the factory and get you a >quote and I'm wrong while you quote another savant. > >Whatever Don. When you do what I do on a daily basis, we'll talk again. > >Jim The above really is below what my opinion of you HAD been. It's apparent you are now a vendor not an enthusiast. Damn shame since you were such a great enthusiast. Don't expect to "talk again".. I see no need to. _______D_o_n__________S_p_r_i_n_g__L_a_k_e__H_t_s____________©1946________ Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ - http://www.njsbmwr.org/ '98 M3c/5, '03 525iT, '87 K75S