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#1. Re: Replacing front control arm bushings - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:12:10 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Replacing front control arm bushings on 3/22/05 4:10 PM, Doug Young <Doug.Young@nsidc.org> wrote: > I'm going to replace the original front control arm bushings in my '95 M3 with > either urethane or delrin bushings. Is there any consensus regarding the > choice of material? I autocross the car regularly and track it occasionally. As it happens I just did this last week. I wouldn't recommend Delrin, which is almost totally non-compliant, for a street car. I used the Powerflex polyurethane bushings from Bimmerworld. > Also, is the bushing mounting bracket under much tension? Once I get the > bushing pressed into the bracket will it easily reattach to the underpanel or > will I be straining to get the bolts realigned with the holes? The stock bushing/carrier is under no tension (but see more below). Your first challenge will be to get the carrier and bushing off the control arm. The stock bushing consists of an outer metal sleeve which is pressed into the carrier, the main rubber bushing, then an inner tension sleeve followed by a thin inner layer of rubber which grips the control arm journal. Using a normal puller tends simply to stretch the bushing rubber without actually budging the bushing. Naturally there's a megabuck BMW special tool, which none of us has, for doing this on the car,. Here's my technique: 1) Unbolt the bushing carrier from the car body so that the rear of the control arm dangles down. 2) Use an electric drill with a 3/8" spade bit to drill a series of closely spaced holes through the main rubber body of the bushing. A spade drill is much better than a twist drill because it removes more material. 3) Now join up the holes with an electric sabre saw or a Sawsall. (I use a high speed air body saw). Pull the severed outer bushing/carrier off. 5) Use the power saw or a hacksaw to cut through the inner tension ring in one place. You can now easily pull off the inner bushing remnant. This is quite quick and easy to do. Now you need to get the outer bushing sleeve out of the carrier. I use an air chisel to fold in the outer sleeve and push it out. This takes about 30 seconds per carrier and doesn't damage it. There may be a way to do this with hand tools, such as by carefully cutting the ring, but you're risking damage to the carrier. In that situation I'd be inclined to take it to a shop and have it pressed out. Maybe someone else has a handy technique for that part? Now for the easy part. The Powerflex bushing's outer portion can easily be pressed into the carrier with a vise, or probably be hammered in with a block of wood and a heavy hammer. Lube it with some dish soap and water. Then the inner part taps easily onto the control arm journal, and the two halves then slide easily together. A note about tension. I chose the offset bushings, which 96+ cars don't normally have. When I went to bolt everything back together I found that the carriers were misaligned to their mounting holes by roughly 1/4" on one side of the car and 1/2" on the other. I don't know whether this is because of the offset or is due to tolerance issues in the Powerflex parts. But because the poly bushings are pretty stiff it wasn't possible simply to push everything into place. After some flailing about I decided to drop the front subframe bolts about 3/4" (carefully: they support the whole engine) to generate some wiggle room. I then applied light tension under the bushing carrier with a jack and levered it until it popped over the alignment sleeves that stick out of the body. Then I could bolt it in place. I'm not entirely happy about this because the net result is preload in sheer on the inboard ball joint, and I think that the poly is too stiff to accommodate itself over time. I'd be very interested to know from other Powerflex bushing users whether they had this problem also. (Since Doug's 95 has stock offset busing this issue may not arise for him.) Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 77 MGB - Original owner, need to sell 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD!
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#2. Poly RTAB R&R - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:42:43 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Poly RTAB R&R Further to my previous post about installing Powerflex control arm bushings from Bimmerworld, I also put in their rear trailing arm bushings. At 87K miles mine weren't originals, but they're stock replacements I had installed at around 60K miles. At that time I used the homebrew-improvised-big bolts-sweat-tears-major profanity involved method. (Marco R., wasn't this your how-to?) Since then I'd bought the Victory Product Design tool: http://victoryproductdesign.com/tools_main.htm which runs well under $100 delivered, but hadn't yet used it. Having now tried this job both ways I'm here to tell you all it'd be *insane* not to use the VPD tool. Even if you thought you'd never need it again you could always sell it to someone afterward. The bushing pulled right out of the trailing arm without drama. Just keep cranking on the tool (and resist the temptation to speed up the job with your air impact gun). Apparently some bushings have a flange which may need to be trimmed off first, but mine didn't. The basic procedure is: - Jack car, remove rear wheels, release handbrake. - Remove lower shock bolts, pop out rear springs. - Unbolt brake line union from trailing arm (2 x 10mm head bolts). - Spray paint or otherwise mark RTAB carrier to body area to preserve alignment. - Unbolt RTAB carrier from body (3 x 18mm head bolts). - Remove RTAB pivot bolt, pull off RTAB carrier. - Support trailing arm with a jack, apply VPD tool and pull out bushing. - Assembly is the reverse, torque to spec. Since the Powerflex bushings come in two halves I didn't have to test the VPD tool's ability to pull a new stock bushing into place, but there's no reason to think it would pose any particular problem. Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 77 MGB - Original owner, need to sell 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD!
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Re: Replacing front control arm bushings - from Dmitri Zorine
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:56:10 -0500 From: "Dmitri Zorine" <dzm3@technologyoasis.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Re: Replacing front control arm bushings I did the same procedure about 3 weeks ago. Removal: 1. Spray the end of the control arm that is in the bushing with DW40, PB Blaster, etc, whatever your preference is. 2. I used a $8 faucet puller from Home Depot, and it pulled the stock bushing off with no problem. 3. With a hacksaw I made two parallel cuts from the inside hole of the bushing to the lollypop bracket, about 1/4" apart. Like Neil said, I didn't want to damage the bracket by cutting it, so I stopped just a hair before going all the way thru the outer metal ring. That relieved the tension enough that with one relatively light tap with a hammer it came right out. Install. Now this was more difficult in my case. I was doing struts and springs at the same time. On the first corner I bolted the strut to the hub first, and no matter how hard I pushed I cold not line the holes up. So I ended up taking the bushing back off, and cutting a 45 degree counter sink around the inner hole, about 1/8-1/4" deep. That allowed the bushing to slide just a bit deeper on the control arm and the holes lined up. On the other side, I precut the same counter sink first. But bolted the lollypop bracket to the body first, before attaching the strut to the hub, and it was A LOT easier to line the holes up. I suspect that not having the strut bolted to the control arm would allow enough play to be able to get the bushing in place without cutting it. YMMV Dmitri '99 M3/2 ________________________________ From: Neil Maller [mailto:neil.maller@gte.net] Sent: Wed 3/23/2005 10:20 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Re: Replacing front control arm bushings Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:12:10 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: Replacing front control arm bushings on 3/22/05 4:10 PM, Doug Young <Doug.Young@nsidc.org> wrote: > I'm going to replace the original front control arm bushings in my '95 M3 with > either urethane or delrin bushings. Is there any consensus regarding the > choice of material? I autocross the car regularly and track it occasionally. As it happens I just did this last week. I wouldn't recommend Delrin, which is almost totally non-compliant, for a street car. I used the Powerflex polyurethane bushings from Bimmerworld. > Also, is the bushing mounting bracket under much tension? Once I get the > bushing pressed into the bracket will it easily reattach to the underpanel or > will I be straining to get the bolts realigned with the holes? The stock bushing/carrier is under no tension (but see more below). Your first challenge will be to get the carrier and bushing off the control arm. The stock bushing consists of an outer metal sleeve which is pressed into the carrier, the main rubber bushing, then an inner tension sleeve followed by a thin inner layer of rubber which grips the control arm journal. Using a normal puller tends simply to stretch the bushing rubber without actually budging the bushing. Naturally there's a megabuck BMW special tool, which none of us has, for doing this on the car,. Here's my technique: 1) Unbolt the bushing carrier from the car body so that the rear of the control arm dangles down. 2) Use an electric drill with a 3/8" spade bit to drill a series of closely spaced holes through the main rubber body of the bushing. A spade drill is much better than a twist drill because it removes more material. 3) Now join up the holes with an electric sabre saw or a Sawsall. (I use a high speed air body saw). Pull the severed outer bushing/carrier off. 5) Use the power saw or a hacksaw to cut through the inner tension ring in one place. You can now easily pull off the inner bushing remnant. This is quite quick and easy to do. Now you need to get the outer bushing sleeve out of the carrier. I use an air chisel to fold in the outer sleeve and push it out. This takes about 30 seconds per carrier and doesn't damage it. There may be a way to do this with hand tools, such as by carefully cutting the ring, but you're risking damage to the carrier. In that situation I'd be inclined to take it to a shop and have it pressed out. Maybe someone else has a handy technique for that part? Now for the easy part. The Powerflex bushing's outer portion can easily be pressed into the carrier with a vise, or probably be hammered in with a block of wood and a heavy hammer. Lube it with some dish soap and water. Then the inner part taps easily onto the control arm journal, and the two halves then slide easily together. A note about tension. I chose the offset bushings, which 96+ cars don't normally have. When I went to bolt everything back together I found that the carriers were misaligned to their mounting holes by roughly 1/4" on one side of the car and 1/2" on the other. I don't know whether this is because of the offset or is due to tolerance issues in the Powerflex parts. But because the poly bushings are pretty stiff it wasn't possible simply to push everything into place. After some flailing about I decided to drop the front subframe bolts about 3/4" (carefully: they support the whole engine) to generate some wiggle room. I then applied light tension under the bushing carrier with a jack and levered it until it popped over the alignment sleeves that stick out of the body. Then I could bolt it in place. I'm not entirely happy about this because the net result is preload in sheer on the inboard ball joint, and I think that the poly is too stiff to accommodate itself over time. I'd be very interested to know from other Powerflex bushing users whether they had this problem also. (Since Doug's 95 has stock offset busing this issue may not arise for him.) Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 77 MGB - Original owner, need to sell 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD! ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#4. RE: [E36M3] Wind noise troubleshooting - from Mike Frank
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:33:29 -0500 From: "Mike Frank" <mfrank28@insightbb.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Wind noise troubleshooting Peter, I had the exact same thing happen to me a few years ago - windshield replacement followed by the noise you describe. I had the installer return and I took him for a ride. He resealed some gaskets (memory is fuzzy) but the sound remained. He tried to blame a very small piece of window tint that was starting to peel back ever so slightly near the area. Bzzzzt, wrong answer. My solution was to install a UUC exhaust and remove the interior. Wind noise is no longer the problem. I'll take a look at the rubber trim you mentioned. If you figure out what the source is please share. Thanks, Mike Frank 97 M3 - about to come out of hibernation > -------------------- 6 -------------------- > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:11 -0700 > From: Peter Fry <PeterFry@aol.com> > Subject: Wind noise troubleshooting > > Fellow M3 pilots- > I'm having an annoying wind noise, and wondered if anyone can shed some > light on it. > I had the windshield on my 99 M3 replaced a few months ago, and ever > since then, there's been a flapping wind noise from the area near the > passenger side rear-view mirror. It sounds almost like a short piece of > paper flapping from 45-70-ish mph. > After looking it over again tonight, I suspect the section of rubber > trim > where the windshield meets the A-pillar. On the driver's side (completely > silent at speed), it has a "C" shaped cross section, curving towards the > windshield. On the noisy passenger side, it's more "L" shaped, closer to > perpendicular to the windshield. > What do your cars look like? Is the asymmetry normal, or did the > bonehead > windshield subcontractor for the shop I took it to mis-align the trim > piece? (they also damaged some internal surfaces during the install) > I'd welcome any insight on this issue, as well as reports on the > configuration and wind noise levels on your cars. > Thanks, > Peter Fry
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#5. re: yet another suspension question - from Jonathan Evans
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:34:03 -0500 From: "Jonathan Evans" <jonathanevans@hotmail.com> Subject: re: yet another suspension question I'll answer the M3 suspension question first: I just put Bilsteins on my '95 after getting lots of input from the list (for 4.5 years). I kept the stock springs for keep the ride height the same since it's really a commuter car now. The car feels much more connected to the road. Like there is a big hand pressing down on the roof the whole time. For that reason it is not as cushy as the stock ride on the highway. I can't imagine how stiffer springs would feel. Glad I didn't change them. I went Bilsteins over Konis because I am lazy. I have the old stock struts if you end up doing the Koni cut and gut. You pay shipping. I blow out the rear shock mounts about once a year, once punching a hole through the unibody. I just blew out the GC RSM's (I think that is the brand, I bought them used) that have the rubber inserts in a nice aluminum mount. I really don't drive the car THAT hard but seem to go through those mounts quickly. I'm going to get sway bars to minimize body roll, effectively compensating for soft springs. If this were a track car I would control body roll with the correct springs, but I don't track the car anymore. Bringing up your next question... We can go offline and talk about Miatas if you like, but I'll just say one thing. A complete (used) Miata engine costs less than an M3 front bumper. No brainer for me. -Jonathan Evans -95 M3 -92 Miata CSP
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#6. RE: [E36M3] Wind noise troubleshooting - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Wind noise troubleshooting That's why when my winshield cracked last year from a big ass rock, I replaced it myself. Of course, the first windshield wasn't installed correctly...hahahaha. Live and learn. The first time failure was from not having punctured the tube of rubber butyl good enough. So trying to squeeze it out with the hand chaulker proved to be very tiring. Next time up, I ordered a Milwaukee chaulker gun (argh argh argh!). Unfortunately, we werent' able to remove the windshield without cracking it :( So...new windshield. Ugh. So...second attempt...I didn't realize the trigger was variable so that stuff just shot out and I ended up with a huge bead that didn't go 1/3 of the way around the windshield. HAHAHAHA! It was also the special BMW stuff that was supposed to be heated so that in theory, curing times would be faster. I didn't even attempt to install it. We just used a scraper, wiped it off, cleaned the area and went to the BMW dealer and bought two tubes of the regular sealant. This time around, I went slow and the bead came out nice and uniform. The seal that you install around the windshield has rubber butyl adhesive inside already. If you press it to the windshield, it should stick. There is also a center notch (on the trim and the windshield) to help align things. Last but not least, the windshield needs to be dropped in place and pushed up so that the seal on the top covers the body work. The weight of the glass will make it want to sag downwards so you need to tape it up though I think if I were to do it again, I would try to support it at the bottom of the windshield as well. Basically, my point is to find a competent installer. If this shadetree mechanic can do it, I'm sure a lot of people can :) Also, you're not supposed to move the car at all for many hours. Chester > > Fellow M3 pilots- > > I'm having an annoying wind noise, and wondered if anyone can shed some > > light on it. > > I had the windshield on my 99 M3 replaced a few months ago, and ever > > since then, there's been a flapping wind noise from the area near the > > passenger side rear-view mirror. It sounds almost like a short piece of > > paper flapping from 45-70-ish mph. > > After looking it over again tonight, I suspect the section of rubber > > trim > > where the windshield meets the A-pillar. On the driver's side (completely > > silent at speed), it has a "C" shaped cross section, curving towards the > > windshield. On the noisy passenger side, it's more "L" shaped, closer to > > perpendicular to the windshield. > > What do your cars look like? Is the asymmetry normal, or did the > > bonehead > > windshield subcontractor for the shop I took it to mis-align the trim > > piece? (they also damaged some internal surfaces during the install) > > I'd welcome any insight on this issue, as well as reports on the > > configuration and wind noise levels on your cars. > > Thanks, > > Peter Fry
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#7. Re: yasq yet another suspension question - from Neil Maller
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:12:30 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: yasq yet another suspension question on 3/23/05 9:40 AM, jason <jason@doomba.com> wrote: > ok, i've put it off long enough. its time to replace everything. its a > 117k mile 95 and i've got powerflex bushings on the shelf waiting to go > on the car. the holdup has been shocks and money. but i've been given > the goahead for getting everything to finish the job. i would > appreciate any advice for what i should buy suspension wise, and any > pesky things i should get before taking things apart. > > got: > powerflex bushings for all the usual suspects. control arm, trailing > arm,sways. See my two posts about Powerflex bushing installation today. > need? ball joints? how long do they last? i've got a press, so i'm inclined > to replace M3 ball joints are part of the control arm and are not separately replaceable. You're probably due. > rear shock mounts. i'm sure mine are shot. whats best replacement? As usual it's "best for what?" E46 M3 RSM's work fine for stock suspension and street use. Track/autoX/stiff shocks require something better. List sponsor Rogue Engineering has a nice aftermarket RSM which I'm using. > shocks/springs: car is mostly street on pretty crappy roads. tire wear > is pretty good with stock camber. i like the stock ride height. i > would like to keep good suspension travel, but the ride could be stiffer > without any problems. as it is, the shocks are so old that the > compression is quite jarring. anything new, even much stiffer than > stock would be an improvement. ok, pretty simple. > > i would like to autox the car occasionally though on r compounds on a > 2nd set of stock wheels. so if i could adjust some things that would be > very welcome. adjustable camber would also be wonderful. > > i started checking all the usual places you guys mention and i ended up > talking to pete at tckline for quite a while today. he suggested their > SA and DA koni setup with camber plates and 450fr 500r springs. the > kits look really nice. and i was wondering what ya'll thought. > anything else i should look at? would you do SA with camber over just > the DA's? i don't know if i can swing DA's and camber plates. thats > quite a bit of money for me. > > pete also mentioned delrin rtabs. is improvement over poly's or > similiar? i'm thinking i'll use my poly bushings for now... I wouldn't use Delrin for a street driver. > or, should i get koni eo style shocks and put the money into a 2002 or > miata track car? (still deciding...) This whole subject gets awfully complicated very quickly, and there's no right answer. For reference I have the TCK Koni DA coilover setup with 450F/500R springs and RD sways. My car is *heavily* biased toward track use. My personal comments, YMMV: - This spring rate is at the limit of acceptability for other than smooth roads. Furthermore for street use I have to keep the Konis dialed back to less than optimal damping, which makes it underdamped and slightly bouncy. But for the track, with the shocks dialed stiffer, it's great. - I've also tried 350F/400R with the DA's. For the street this is magical: firm and controlled but not harsh. Not quite aggressive enough for a pure track car, more than good enough for occasional track/AutoX use. - Coilovers are overkill if primarily for street use and I assume will push you into a higher class for AutoX. - DA shocks are overkill if primarily for street use. I believe the Koni DA's are also more aggressively valved than the SA's. - Front negative camber is key to M3 handling. Camber plates tend to be somewhat harsh and noisy (and expensive...) but very effective. There are physical limits to how much negative camber you can dial in with the larger diameter of stock springs vs. the 60mm race springs in the TCK setup. A nice budget setup is Koni SA's with stock pattern H&R OE Sport springs (slight drop only), swaybars and your choice of camber doohickey. Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 77 MGB - Original owner, need to sell 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD!
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#8. RE: [E36M3] Wind noise troubleshooting - from Peter Fry
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:20 -0700 From: Peter Fry <PeterFry@aol.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Wind noise troubleshooting Mike- I read your note on this from July 03 in the archives, and it made me think that at least it had happened before, and WAS associated with the windshield change (not just coincidence). A 318 that I looked at in the parking lot this morning has symmetric, very tightly curled trim pieces with definite "C" cross section (probably what mine looked like before the windshield swap). So I'm leaning more toward that as the cause. If your passenger-side is "uncurled" like mine, that would go a long way towards proving my thesis. I believe a "good" trim piece is curled tightly enough that I can barely get the tip of my little finger into the "C." On my noisy passenger side, there's a much bigger gap between the top of the "C" and the windshield - the little finger easily fits. So I think the airflow over that part is causing the noise. If I confirm this and replacing/adjusting the trim eliminates the noise, I'll post it for all to read. Peter Fry ___ Sent with SnapperMail www.snappermail.com ....... Original Message ....... On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:33:29 -0500 "Mike Frank" <mfrank28@insightbb.com> wrote: > >Peter, > >I had the exact same thing happen to me a few years ago - windshield >replacement followed by the noise you describe. I had the installer return >and I took him for a ride. He resealed some gaskets (memory is fuzzy) but >the sound remained. He tried to blame a very small piece of window tint >that was starting to peel back ever so slightly near the area. Bzzzzt, >wrong answer.
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#9. Re: [E36M3] yasq yet another suspension question - from Kent L. Shephard
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:22:56 -0800 From: "Kent L. Shephard" <kents@kls-consulting.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] yasq yet another suspension question Hi, Since my car is mostly a daily driver and doing the SA or DA with camber plates would send me like a junkie in to a drug house. If I had done that it would have been, coil overs, camber plates, adjustable rear links, etc...... So instead, I went with stock springs to keep the ride height the same and Bilstein sport shocks. Went with urethane bushing everywhere that had to come apart. The ride is decent and not as jarring as my E30 M3 was and stays pretty flat in the corners. My wife doesn't complain. Kent jason wrote: >Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:29:10 -0800 >From: jason <jason@doomba.com> >Subject: yasq yet another suspension question > > > -- Snip >i started checking all the usual places you guys mention and i ended up >talking to pete at tckline for quite a while today. he suggested their >SA and DA koni setup with camber plates and 450fr 500r springs. the >kits look really nice. and i was wondering what ya'll thought. >anything else i should look at? would you do SA with camber over just >the DA's? i don't know if i can swing DA's and camber plates. thats >quite a bit of money for me. > >pete also mentioned delrin rtabs. is improvement over poly's or >similiar? i'm thinking i'll use my poly bushings for now... > >or, should i get koni eo style shocks and put the money into a 2002 or >miata track car? (still deciding...) > >jason > > > -- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." 1918, Theodore Roosevelt
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Re: yasq yet another suspension question - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:34:34 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: yasq yet another suspension question --- Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> wrote: > A nice budget setup is Koni SA's with stock pattern H&R OE Sport springs > (slight drop only), swaybars and your choice of camber doohickey. I second Neil's comments though I didn't really read much of it...just way too many opinions. But this caught my eye. Also consider the Eibach Pro-Kit springs which are linear. I didn't really like the H&R OE springs much. But that's my $.02. Currently, I'm running 244#/inch springs in the front and 343#/inch springs in the back. O wait...that's this car <http://www.pbase.com/ekosan/image/40134699/large.jpg> =) Chester