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#1. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from slafredo@classicflytyer.com
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:07:41 -0700 From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) Learn how to shift. I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or misplaced shifts. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Spangenberg [mailto:cpmustang2001@yahoo.com] Sent: Fri 05/06/2005 12:05 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) I have been venting to several of my friends lately about how dumb the M3 shifter design is. My '87 325is has a poor feeling shifter as well, but I don't think those cars are as prone to the "money shift". Shifting is my favorite thing :-) I really used to enjoy banging shifts in my Mustang GT ... and I never thought twice about missing a gear and blowing it up. I am depressed that my '95 M3 is so "dangerous" when it comes to shifting while under heavy load. My lack of confidence while shifting totally takes the fun out of driving for me. I nearly blew it up on Monday just having a spirited run down the local parkway. I went for 4th, didn't get it, re-cocked, and then got 2nd. Luckily I didn't let the clutch out or my love affair with this car would have been short lived! Did I mention I'm depressed?? :-) I want to fix this bad design as well as I can. The best answer would be to relocate the pivot for the console to someplace on the driveline versus on the body. That sounds like more work and more engineering than I want to tackle. I'm not extremely concerned about inducing some more cabin vibration. With that in mind, what's the BEST answer for making this shifter confidence inspiring? I am assuming that one of the aftermarket shifters (UUC, etc.) is a good start. The UUC urethane tranny mounts with reinforcements are also in order, I think. What about the engine mounts? What's available for replacement units? When my Mustang first became a CP car I solid-mounted the engine and tranny. The vibration was surprisingly not that bad :-) -Scott Spangenberg -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!) -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#2. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Robert Chay
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:22:28 -0400 From: "Robert Chay" <lists@rchay.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) TMEs and a Evo 3 shift kit will definitely help. There's also transmission braces that will prevent the shift places to move even less but will introduce more NVH in the cabin. BTW... "banging" shifts isn't the best way to shift gears in any car. -Bobby > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Spangenberg > > <snip> > > I want to fix this bad design as well as I can. The > best answer would be to relocate the pivot for the > console to someplace on the driveline versus on the > body. That sounds like more work and more engineering > than I want to tackle. I'm not extremely concerned > about inducing some more cabin vibration. With that > in mind, what's the BEST answer for making this > shifter confidence inspiring? I am assuming that one > of the aftermarket shifters (UUC, etc.) is a good > start. The UUC urethane tranny mounts with > reinforcements are also in order, I think. What about > the engine mounts? What's available for replacement > units? When my Mustang first became a CP car I > solid-mounted the engine and tranny. The vibration > was surprisingly not that bad :-) > > > > -Scott Spangenberg > -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car > -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car > -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!) > -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter >
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) This coming from a person who only shifts his *ss in his seat when he gets uncomfortable ;) When was the last time you shifted a *real* car? =P Chester --- slafredo@classicflytyer.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:07:41 -0700 > From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) > > Learn how to shift. > > I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or misplaced shifts.
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:31:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) On Fri, May 6, 2005 12:05 pm, Scott Spangenberg said: > I have been venting to several of my friends lately > about how dumb the M3 shifter design is. My '87 325is > has a poor feeling shifter as well, but I don't think > those cars are as prone to the "money shift". First, let me say I've BTDT - I misshifted my 325is from 4th to 1st (OUCH!) - it was the 3rd lap EVER with that car on track (double-OUCH!). I've also tracked my M3 and the 325 for a combined 7 years - the last 3-1/2 as a racer & instructor (and a combined 185,000 miles in both cars). Having said that, I'm about to get on my soapbox :-) Please don't take this personally :-) While the shifting experience can be improved on the E36 M3, the "money shift" has one, and only one cause: pilot error. Period. > Shifting is my favorite thing :-) I really used to > enjoy banging shifts in my Mustang GT Here's your first "problem": stop "banging" your shifts. With the proper technique one can shift smoothly AND quickly (key word here: "smoothly") and greatly reduce the chance of putting the car in the wrong gear. > ... and I never > thought twice about missing a gear and blowing it up. > I am depressed that my '95 M3 is so "dangerous" when > it comes to shifting while under heavy load. Heavy side load, like in a turn? Really not a good idea, as no matter what mods you make, short of solid mounting the engine and transmission, there will be some movement. This movement could result in the shift gates being not where you expect them to be. > I want to fix this bad design as well as I can. Might I suggest also addressing your shifting technique? Have a look at: http://www.shortshifter.com/techniques2.htm for starters. > units? When my Mustang first became a CP car I > solid-mounted the engine and tranny. The vibration > was surprisingly not that bad :-) Ahhh, I see you HAVE experience with solid mounts :-) Well, I'm not familiar with options for doing this on the E36 M3. All the mounts on my M3 are stock; on the race car (post-misshift :-)) I installed the Rogue trans mounts as some insurance. But paying attention to what I was doing, shifting-wise, and getting more familiar with the car in general helped more than anything. Probably not necessarily what you wanted to hear, but I can say that I see a lot of this. It's really hard to assess your own driving technique, and make changes or admit that maybe what you're doing is "wrong" in some sense. Anyway, that's my more-than-2-cents-worth. Hope you found some of it useful. Cheers, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 1993 325is #44 JP
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#5. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Scott Spangenberg
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:32:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) Ouch ... as if you actually know me :-) I really would rather the Germans learn how to design a shifter :-) I have driven a lot of high performance cars in high stress situations. This shifter, even from a physics standpoint, is by far the worst idea I have seen. Wait, there was one worse ... a Renault Le Car :-) I can see that it worked good on paper, but when the NVH police came around and softened up the engine and trans mounts, the geometry went South. I guess I have high expectations for a shifter. This design falls way short. I am accepting of "quirks" ... they are what make old British sports cars fun and interesting. However, missing a shift in an MGB (unlikely anyway, great shifter) won't cost me a $5k engine. -Scott --- slafredo@classicflytyer.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:07:41 -0700 > From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? > (kinda long and venting) > > Learn how to shift. > > I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or > misplaced shifts. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Spangenberg > [mailto:cpmustang2001@yahoo.com] > Sent: Fri 05/06/2005 12:05 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda > long and venting) > > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> > Subject: Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and > venting) > > I have been venting to several of my friends lately > about how dumb the M3 shifter design is. My '87 > 325is > has a poor feeling shifter as well, but I don't > think > those cars are as prone to the "money shift". > > Shifting is my favorite thing :-) I really used to > enjoy banging shifts in my Mustang GT ... and I > never > thought twice about missing a gear and blowing it > up. > I am depressed that my '95 M3 is so "dangerous" when > it comes to shifting while under heavy load. My > lack > of confidence while shifting totally takes the fun > out > of driving for me. I nearly blew it up on Monday > just > having a spirited run down the local parkway. I > went > for 4th, didn't get it, re-cocked, and then got 2nd. > > Luckily I didn't let the clutch out or my love > affair > with this car would have been short lived! Did I > mention I'm depressed?? :-) > > I want to fix this bad design as well as I can. The > best answer would be to relocate the pivot for the > console to someplace on the driveline versus on the > body. That sounds like more work and more > engineering > than I want to tackle. I'm not extremely concerned > about inducing some more cabin vibration. With that > in mind, what's the BEST answer for making this > shifter confidence inspiring? I am assuming that > one > of the aftermarket shifters (UUC, etc.) is a good > start. The UUC urethane tranny mounts with > reinforcements are also in order, I think. What > about > the engine mounts? What's available for replacement > units? When my Mustang first became a CP car I > solid-mounted the engine and tranny. The vibration > was surprisingly not that bad :-) > > > > -Scott Spangenberg > -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car > -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car > -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!) > -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter > > > > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the > tour: > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our > sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our > sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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#6. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Jeremy Conners
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:33:18 -0400 From: "Jeremy Conners" <jeremy.conners@comcast.net> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) Nice, let's cut on somebody AND tempt fate at the same time... // Learn how to shift. // // I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or misplaced shifts.
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#7. '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Rich Dorffer
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Dorffer <e36m3digest@ameritech.net> Subject: '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits I need to replace the head gasket on my 1995 M3. I haven't had the typical head gasket issues I have read about, mine simply leaks oil (leaks, not seeps) back by the #6 cylinder (and the oil hits the cats and blows white smoke out from under the car scaring the unsuspecting victims I pass at DEs... :-) The head gasket was replaced once when the valve train was upgraded to the newer hardened retainers/keepers so it isn't the original. I suppose something could have occurred at that time where a contaminant got under the gasket or the gasket was defective, who knows. Regardless, it has to be replaced. So, I might as well go for an upgrade over a stock gasket IMO. As a result, I think the multi-layered steel head gasket (from VAC Motorsports) and possibly adding their ARP stud kit makes sense. Anyone else do this? Results? Anyone do something else that I should consider? Thanks in advance. Regards, Rich - need to get ready for my next DE...
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Raza Uddin
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:42:01 -0700 From: Raza Uddin <raza.uddin@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) I wouldn't say our shifter design is necessarily dangerous. I do know that a worn shifter feels completely different that a new or refreshed one. It's only fair after lots of mileage and use (in my case 100K) that the bushing are worn and it becomes a tad sloppy. I must say, though, that my worn shifter with at least and 1 in of lateral movement in every direction still felt more precise and pleasurable than my friends Jetta III VR6 shifter with only 50K miles. That has got to have been the worst shifter I've ever had the unfortunate pleasure of driving. However, I was not content with the sloppiness also and set out to buy at least new bushing to rebuild my shifter. I had avoided a short shifter for a while simply because I was not impressed by some of the earliest units that friends had installed on their BMWs. To be honest, I tried one of the first UUC shifters and liked my stock Getrag shifter in my Dinan 3 better. It was too notchy and required way too much effort to get into gear. But I had to do something with my M3 as the slop became too much. Since it was my first foray in short shifters, I was lucky to come upon a new-in-box UUC Evo 2 with red tranny mounts and TMEs for MUCH less than a new UUC Evo 3 shifter. The install was not too bad with an experienced person and the change was absolutely amazing. I was able to drive a stock M3 the other day and I couldn't believe how much of a difference the new kit made. The throws felt like rowing an oar plus it was worn enough to have tons of lateral movement. It was simply not a pleasure to drive anymore. One problem I had before I switched out to the UUC stuff was the car not wanting to get into gear on a spirited 2-3 shift. I think the tranny was deflecting too much that it would misalign itself and it would be impossible to shift at or near redline. Once I installed the Red (race) tranny mounts with the metal enforcer cups, the shifter became much more direct: I haven't missed a shift yet. I have noticed a slight increase in NVH, but it is very little and is a small price to pay for the improvement in the stock stuff. Maybe their difference was felt much more because my stock stuff had been worn beyond belief, but I noticed a big difference and am very happy with my decision. Drive Safely Raza
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#9. Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:42:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits On Fri, May 6, 2005 12:36 pm, Rich Dorffer said: > So, I might as well go for an upgrade over a stock gasket IMO. As a > result, I think the > multi-layered steel head gasket (from VAC Motorsports) And I think a similar one is available from BMP. > Anyone else do this? Not me personally, but I know my mechanic (Bill Arnold) uses these head gaskets and EVERY '95 M3 that he does a head gasket on. Especially tracked and/or raced cars. Do it. (I have no opinion on the stud kit.) Cheers, Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 - fresh head with stock gasket 1993 325is #44 JP - slightly less-fresh head with stock gasket :-)
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#10. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) He won't be tempting any kind of fate since he's sold the M3 and drives a Benzover C32AMG... :) Maybe he'll actually take that pig onto the track and turn his silver calipers gold :) Chester --- Jeremy Conners <jeremy.conners@comcast.net> wrote: > > Nice, let's cut on somebody AND tempt fate at the same time... > > > // Learn how to shift. > // > // I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or misplaced shifts.