E36M3 #4280

This digest contains the following messages:

-------------------- 1 --------------------

#1. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Scott Spangenberg
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

Thanks to everybody with suggestions.  I chose the
wrong word when I spoke of "banging" shifts in the
Mustang.  What I was trying to get across is that no
matter what the situation or level of load, I always
got the gear I was aiming for.  Like I said, shifting
is my favorite thing.  I have a unique ability to hop
into any car and shift well (smoothly, etc.) ... both
up and down.  That's why this car is so aggravating to
me.  I am not opposed to learning the car, but I want
it to compromise with me and do it's part to shift
better too :-)  Looking at the design, reducing slop
in the linkage and reducing drivetrain deflection are
the only ways to address it.

-Scott

--- Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best?
> (kinda long and venting)
> 
> Ouch ... as if you actually know me :-)  I really
> would rather the Germans learn how to design a
> shifter
> :-)   I have driven a lot of high performance cars
> in
> high stress situations.  This shifter, even from a
> physics standpoint, is by far the worst idea I have
> seen.  Wait, there was one worse ... a Renault Le
> Car
> :-)   I can see that it worked good on paper, but
> when
> the NVH police came around and softened up the
> engine
> and trans mounts, the geometry went South.  I guess
> I
> have high expectations for a shifter.  This design
> falls way short.  I am accepting of "quirks" ...
> they
> are what make old British sports cars fun and
> interesting.  However, missing a shift in an MGB
> (unlikely anyway, great shifter) won't cost me a $5k
> engine.
> 
> -Scott
> 
> --- slafredo@classicflytyer.com wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:07:41 -0700
> > From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com>
> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best?
> > (kinda long and venting)
> > 
> > Learn how to shift.
> > 
> > I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or
> > misplaced shifts.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Spangenberg
> > [mailto:cpmustang2001@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Fri 05/06/2005 12:05 PM
> > To: E36M3
> > Subject: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda
> > long and venting)
> >  
> > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and
> > venting)
> > 
> > I have been venting to several of my friends
> lately
> > about how dumb the M3 shifter design is.  My '87
> > 325is
> > has a poor feeling shifter as well, but I don't
> > think
> > those cars are as prone to the "money shift".
> > 
> > Shifting is my favorite thing :-)   I really used
> to
> > enjoy banging shifts in my Mustang GT ... and I
> > never
> > thought twice about missing a gear and blowing it
> > up. 
> > I am depressed that my '95 M3 is so "dangerous"
> when
> > it comes to shifting while under heavy load.  My
> > lack
> > of confidence while shifting totally takes the fun
> > out
> > of driving for me.  I nearly blew it up on Monday
> > just
> > having a spirited run down the local parkway.  I
> > went
> > for 4th, didn't get it, re-cocked, and then got
> 2nd.
> > 
> > Luckily I didn't let the clutch out or my love
> > affair
> > with this car would have been short lived!  Did I
> > mention I'm depressed?? :-)
> > 
> > I want to fix this bad design as well as I can. 
> The
> > best answer would be to relocate the pivot for the
> > console to someplace on the driveline versus on
> the
> > body.  That sounds like more work and more
> > engineering
> > than I want to tackle.  I'm not extremely
> concerned
> > about inducing some more cabin vibration.  With
> that
> > in mind, what's the BEST answer for making this
> > shifter confidence inspiring?  I am assuming that
> > one
> > of the aftermarket shifters (UUC, etc.) is a good
> > start.  The UUC urethane tranny mounts with
> > reinforcements are also in order, I think.  What
> > about
> > the engine mounts?  What's available for
> replacement
> > units?  When my Mustang first became a CP car I
> > solid-mounted the engine and tranny.  The
> vibration
> > was surprisingly not that bad :-)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Scott Spangenberg
> > -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car
> > -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car
> > -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!)
> > -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter
> > 
> > 
> > 		
> > Yahoo! Mail
> > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> > tour:
> > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > *************************************************
> > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our
> > sponsors:
> > 
> > Bimmerworld  http://www.bimmerworld.com
> > Turner Motorsport  http://www.turnermotorsport.com
> > Eurosport High Performance 
> > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com
> > Rogue Engineering  http://www.rogueengineering.com
> > Treehouse Racing  http://www.treehouseracing.com
> > Elephant Motorsports Inc. 
> > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
> > 
> > DIGEST INFORMATION:
> > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm
> > *************************************************
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > *************************************************
> > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our
> > sponsors:
> > 
> > Bimmerworld  http://www.bimmerworld.com
> > Turner Motorsport  http://www.turnermotorsport.com
> > Eurosport High Performance 
> > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com
> > Rogue Engineering  http://www.rogueengineering.com
> > Treehouse Racing  http://www.treehouseracing.com
> > Elephant Motorsports Inc. 
> > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
> > 
> > DIGEST INFORMATION:
> > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm
> > *************************************************
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> 
> 
> *************************************************
> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our
> sponsors:
> 
> Bimmerworld  http://www.bimmerworld.com
> Turner Motorsport  http://www.turnermotorsport.com
> Eurosport High Performance 
> http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com
> Rogue Engineering  http://www.rogueengineering.com
> Treehouse Racing  http://www.treehouseracing.com
> Elephant Motorsports Inc. 
> http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
> 
> DIGEST INFORMATION:
> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm
> *************************************************
> 
> 
> 



		
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-------------------- 2 --------------------

#2. Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Chester Wong
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits

I don't have experience with this, but I do know that BMP stopped making their
gasket for our cars.  If you do go the VAC route, keep me posted :)  I'll
probably be doing my head gasket real soon...

Chester

--- Rich Dorffer <e36m3digest@ameritech.net> wrote:
> So, I might as well go for an upgrade over a stock gasket IMO.  As a result,
> I think the
> multi-layered steel head gasket (from VAC Motorsports) and possibly adding
> their ARP stud kit
> makes sense.

Top

-------------------- 3 --------------------

#3. Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Chester Wong
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits


--- Jim Bassett <jim@jimbassett.com> wrote:
> > Anyone else do this?
> 
> Not me personally, but I know my mechanic (Bill Arnold) uses these head
> gaskets and EVERY '95 M3 that he does a head gasket on. Especially tracked
> and/or raced cars.

You're talking about the VAC gasket, correct?

Chester

Top

-------------------- 4 --------------------

#4. Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Jim Bassett
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits

On Fri, May 6, 2005 12:47 pm, Chester Wong said:
> --- Jim Bassett <jim@jimbassett.com> wrote:
>> > Anyone else do this?
>>
>> Not me personally, but I know my mechanic (Bill Arnold) uses these head
>> gaskets and EVERY '95 M3 that he does a head gasket on. Especially
>> tracked
>> and/or raced cars.
>
> You're talking about the VAC gasket, correct?

I believe that's what we were talking about, yes.

:-)

Jim Bassett

Top

-------------------- 5 --------------------

#5. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from slafredo@classicflytyer.com
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:52:52 -0700
From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

This may be a bit harsh but as Jim said the people who have experienced this problem are to blame not the car. I see way too many people <insert subject here> who want to blame someone else before looking in the mirror to see if just possibly, maybe, by a small chance they may be to blame.

Also the E36M3 is NOT a race car. It is a street car. If you want a race car you will have to invest a significant amount of capital to bring it up to "your" standards.

If it is such a crappy design why did you waste your money and buy one.

Do I really need to "know" you? Let's see what I do know.

I'm Mr. Mustang driver. I bought an M3. I think the shifting is crap and I do not want to buy a new engine. Is there some product I can buy to help? Yeah, like some $100-$400 shifter or tranny mounts is going to fix the BMW "tested" design of a $40+ car. I'll bet you will be back after welding the tranny to the frame and complain how you ripped some other joint in the carriage b/c it was a crappy design.

Sorry I must be in a bad mood today. :) Nothing personal.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Spangenberg [mailto:cpmustang2001@yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 05/06/2005 12:36 PM
To: E36M3
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)
 
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

Ouch ... as if you actually know me :-)  I really
would rather the Germans learn how to design a shifter
:-)   I have driven a lot of high performance cars in
high stress situations.  This shifter, even from a
physics standpoint, is by far the worst idea I have
seen.  Wait, there was one worse ... a Renault Le Car
:-)   I can see that it worked good on paper, but when
the NVH police came around and softened up the engine
and trans mounts, the geometry went South.  I guess I
have high expectations for a shifter.  This design
falls way short.  I am accepting of "quirks" ... they
are what make old British sports cars fun and
interesting.  However, missing a shift in an MGB
(unlikely anyway, great shifter) won't cost me a $5k
engine.

-Scott

--- slafredo@classicflytyer.com wrote:
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:07:41 -0700
> From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com>
> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best?
> (kinda long and venting)
> 
> Learn how to shift.
> 
> I had my M3 for 5 years w/o any problems or
> misplaced shifts.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Spangenberg
> [mailto:cpmustang2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Fri 05/06/2005 12:05 PM
> To: E36M3
> Subject: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda
> long and venting)
>  
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and
> venting)
> 
> I have been venting to several of my friends lately
> about how dumb the M3 shifter design is.  My '87
> 325is
> has a poor feeling shifter as well, but I don't
> think
> those cars are as prone to the "money shift".
> 
> Shifting is my favorite thing :-)   I really used to
> enjoy banging shifts in my Mustang GT ... and I
> never
> thought twice about missing a gear and blowing it
> up. 
> I am depressed that my '95 M3 is so "dangerous" when
> it comes to shifting while under heavy load.  My
> lack
> of confidence while shifting totally takes the fun
> out
> of driving for me.  I nearly blew it up on Monday
> just
> having a spirited run down the local parkway.  I
> went
> for 4th, didn't get it, re-cocked, and then got 2nd.
> 
> Luckily I didn't let the clutch out or my love
> affair
> with this car would have been short lived!  Did I
> mention I'm depressed?? :-)
> 
> I want to fix this bad design as well as I can.  The
> best answer would be to relocate the pivot for the
> console to someplace on the driveline versus on the
> body.  That sounds like more work and more
> engineering
> than I want to tackle.  I'm not extremely concerned
> about inducing some more cabin vibration.  With that
> in mind, what's the BEST answer for making this
> shifter confidence inspiring?  I am assuming that
> one
> of the aftermarket shifters (UUC, etc.) is a good
> start.  The UUC urethane tranny mounts with
> reinforcements are also in order, I think.  What
> about
> the engine mounts?  What's available for replacement
> units?  When my Mustang first became a CP car I
> solid-mounted the engine and tranny.  The vibration
> was surprisingly not that bad :-)
> 
> 
> 
> -Scott Spangenberg
> -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car
> -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car
> -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!)
> -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter
> 
> 
> 		
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
> 
> 
> 
> *************************************************
> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our
> sponsors:
> 
> Bimmerworld  http://www.bimmerworld.com
> Turner Motorsport  http://www.turnermotorsport.com
> Eurosport High Performance 
> http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com
> Rogue Engineering  http://www.rogueengineering.com
> Treehouse Racing  http://www.treehouseracing.com
> Elephant Motorsports Inc. 
> http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
> 
> DIGEST INFORMATION:
> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm
> *************************************************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *************************************************
> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our
> sponsors:
> 
> Bimmerworld  http://www.bimmerworld.com
> Turner Motorsport  http://www.turnermotorsport.com
> Eurosport High Performance 
> http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com
> Rogue Engineering  http://www.rogueengineering.com
> Treehouse Racing  http://www.treehouseracing.com
> Elephant Motorsports Inc. 
> http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
> 
> DIGEST INFORMATION:
> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm
> *************************************************
> 
> 
> 


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


*************************************************
Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors:

Bimmerworld  http://www.bimmerworld.com
Turner Motorsport  http://www.turnermotorsport.com
Eurosport High Performance  http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com
Rogue Engineering  http://www.rogueengineering.com
Treehouse Racing  http://www.treehouseracing.com
Elephant Motorsports Inc.  http://www.elephantmotorsports.com

DIGEST INFORMATION:
http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm
*************************************************

Top

-------------------- 6 --------------------

#6. FS: '95 M3 Jupiter, FL - from John Phillips
Top
Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:53:12 +0000
From: "John Phillips" <jlphil@hotmail.com>
Subject: FS: '95 M3 Jupiter, FL

I'm selling my white over black 1995 M3, to make way for my other 
car-building project which is taking up all the garage space. It's listed 
here as "1995 M3 SWEET!" if you'd like details:  
http://www.roadfly.org/bmw/classifieds/cars/listads.php?cat=207

Please let me know if I've left anything out of my ad that would be helpful.

Thanks for all the help while I've been an M3 guy!
John Phillips, Jupiter FL

Top

-------------------- 7 --------------------

#7. Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Chester Wong
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits


--- Jim Bassett <jim@jimbassett.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2005 12:47 pm, Chester Wong said:
> > --- Jim Bassett <jim@jimbassett.com> wrote:
> >> > Anyone else do this?
> >>
> >> Not me personally, but I know my mechanic (Bill Arnold) uses these head
> >> gaskets and EVERY '95 M3 that he does a head gasket on. Especially
> >> tracked
> >> and/or raced cars.
> >
> > You're talking about the VAC gasket, correct?
> 
> I believe that's what we were talking about, yes.

Well...your reply spoke of thinking there was another one available from BMP. 
Then you said your mechanic uses "these" head gaskets....so I was just making
sure :)

Sure I'm getting old at 29...but I'm not *that* old :)

Chester

Top

-------------------- 8 --------------------

#8. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from slafredo@classicflytyer.com
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:56:57 -0700
From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

Hey I looked at my options at the time and had to make some hard choices.

E36M3 w/250 HP + upgrade to 350 HP =

option 1) E46M3 with exploding engines and BMW's new policy of it must be your fault (they did not know that it was a bearing problem at the time)

option 2) C32AMG with an ugh :P automatic. But hey it has SpeedShift I can pretend it's an SMGII, yeah that's it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 05/06/2005 12:46 PM
To: E36M3
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)
 
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

He won't be tempting any kind of fate since he's sold the M3 and drives a
Benzover C32AMG... :)  Maybe he'll actually take that pig onto the track and
turn his silver calipers gold :)

Chester

Top

-------------------- 9 --------------------

#9. Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits - from Jim Bassett
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com>
Subject: Re: [E36M3] '95 E36 M3 - Head Gasket and Stud Kits

On Fri, May 6, 2005 12:54 pm, Chester Wong said:
> Well...your reply spoke of thinking there was another one available from
> BMP.
> Then you said your mechanic uses "these" head gaskets....so I was just
> making
> sure :)

With the implication being that the VAC & BMP gaskets are similar, if not
the same.

> Sure I'm getting old at 29...but I'm not *that* old :)

Ha! I'm 38 and I'm not *that* old :-)

Jim Bassett

Top

-------------------- 10 --------------------

#10. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Scott Spangenberg
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:06:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

I suppose I sound like that guy you describe, but I'm
really not :-)   I'm the guy who wins the PAX index at
autocrosses with a G Stock Dodge Neon.  I am the first
guy to point out that the driver is the most important
improvement you can make.  The E36 M3 has also been my
"dream car" for several years now.  I finally got one.
 I love the car.  The shifter design is stupid.  Sorry
:-)

-Scott

--- slafredo@classicflytyer.com wrote:

> This may be a bit harsh but as Jim said the people
> who have experienced this problem are to blame not
> the car. I see way too many people <insert subject
> here> who want to blame someone else before looking
> in the mirror to see if just possibly, maybe, by a
> small chance they may be to blame.
> 
> Also the E36M3 is NOT a race car. It is a street
> car. If you want a race car you will have to invest
> a significant amount of capital to bring it up to
> "your" standards.
> 
> If it is such a crappy design why did you waste your
> money and buy one.
> 
> Do I really need to "know" you? Let's see what I do
> know.
> 
> I'm Mr. Mustang driver. I bought an M3. I think the
> shifting is crap and I do not want to buy a new
> engine. Is there some product I can buy to help?
> Yeah, like some $100-$400 shifter or tranny mounts
> is going to fix the BMW "tested" design of a $40+
> car. I'll bet you will be back after welding the
> tranny to the frame and complain how you ripped some
> other joint in the carriage b/c it was a crappy
> design.
> 
> Sorry I must be in a bad mood today. :) Nothing
> personal.



		
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-------------------- 11 --------------------

#11. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Robert Chay
Top
Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:06:30 -0400
From: "Robert Chay" <lists@rchay.com>
Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting)

Someone needs a hug. 

Not from me... Just sayin'.

-Bobby  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: slafredo@classicflytyer.com 
> 
> 
> Sorry I must be in a bad mood today. :) Nothing personal.
> 

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