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#1. RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Don Eilenberger
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Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:31:07 -0400 From: Don Eilenberger <deilenberger@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) At 04:25 PM 5/6/2005, you wrote: >From: <slafredo@classicflytyer.com> >Subject: RE: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) > >Hey I looked at my options at the time and had to make some hard choices. > >E36M3 w/250 HP + upgrade to 350 HP = > >option 1) E46M3 with exploding engines and BMW's new policy of it must be >your fault (they did not know that it was a bearing problem at the time) I'm sure the bearings are the drivers fault. <flamesuiton> In this instance - and I stated this before - IMHO the BMW shifter design plainly sucks. I'm 100% with Scott on this. Scott came here asking for HELP on which shifter is best - and he got flamed for asking and making his opinion on the stock design known. I'll state it very simply: A design where the geometry changes due to load on the engine really is NOT a good design. It IS a bad design. People blame the driver for mis-shifting - but I put as much blame on the shifter design. For good shifting cars (and I've been driving shift for.. ummm.. close to 40 year, no - actually 42 years now..) try a 1963 Volvo P1800S. It has a "remote" shifter as the M3 does (where the lever is located to the rear of the actual internal shifting mechanism) - but Volvo did it right.. the entire shift mechanism is INSIDE a casting that was part of the transmission top cover. I can probably find a diagram of it if anyone is interested.. Jaguar did much the same on the XKE transmission. The lever is affixed to a pivot that is part of the transmission casing. What does this do for'ya? Well - the geometry from GEAR to GEAR never changes. The lever may move a bit under engine torque rotation, but *spacing* from one gear to another didn't change, and spacing is what it's all about. Once you know the spacing between gears it is very easy to make smooth, accurate shifts. The Volvo design also was very low wear due to the entire mechanism being lubricated by the transmission oil. It had no rubbery feeling to it since there was NO rubber in it at all. It required *very* little effort to shift since it wasn't wearing out, was lubricated, was protected from the elements. The length of the shifts was probably about the same as a stock M3 - but it was lots easier to shift quickly due to low effort and accurate positioning. All elements in the mechanism were metal since they all could be lubricated. Plastic, rubber and shifters IMHO do not mix. I do know what BAD shifting is like, my first car - a 1957 DKW had 4 on the column, done by cables with worn linkages. it was pretty much move and pray. Face it - while it might be nice if all things BMW were wonderful - they're not. BMW screws up. Problem is - they don't like to admit when they screwed up. Some very experienced people - including some on this list - have done a "money shift" in an M3. The number of them I hear about and have heard about since the intro of the M3 makes this being a coincidence unlikely. I don't entirely blame the driver when I hear of this happening - the shifter design made it much more likely that it would happen. Accept it - try to fix it and get on with life... denial or thinking you're superior because you haven't done it *yet* completely ignores the basic fact that the design really sucks. You haven't done it 'cause you are very cautious in shifting. As a hint - aftermarket usually develops in response to a problem.. and how many shift kits are out there for the E36 series? If this $40k (actually a lot of times $46k) car was that great - why are there so many shifters being sold for it? With a really good shifter - you shouldn't have to think about shifting at all. It should become natural and you become part of the car control system, or the car becomes part of you. I find this doesn't happen with BMW shifters. That all said - removing the play in the existing shifter helps a lot in almost keeping the geometry the same under varying loads. This doesn't require a "short shifter" - it just requires taking as much of the play out of the existing shift mechanism as possible and making sure you have decent transmission mounts to help resist rotational movement. I do recommend that the shift carrier front mounts be changed from rubber ones to solid ones (I have UUC ones in mine) - there is no noticeable increase in noise. I do recommend that all the plastic washers be replaced, the plastic cup for the shift lever be replaced and the rubber mount for the rear of the shift carrier. Figure on doing this about every 40k miles to keep it feeling reasonable. If you do ALL of this to a stock shifter - you can have one with virtually NO play (max of 1/8" or so) in it. Then you just have to remember NOT to release the clutch before being certain what gear you're in when doing downshifts. I think I heard my first story of a money shift on an M3 right after the intro of the US model in 1994.. and I think it was at the US press introduction that it happened. _______D_o_n__________S_p_r_i_n_g__L_a_k_e__H_t_s____________ Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ NJ SHore BMW Riders - http://www.njsbmwr.org/ E39 Enthusiasts Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bmwe39/ '03 525iT, '98 M3C/5, '87 K75S
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Raza Uddin
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:45:46 -0700 From: Raza Uddin <raza.uddin@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) I'm of the following that believe that the money shift is about a 99.9% preventable occurrence as long as you use proper shifting technique. I think the main reason is because most people try to "bang" shifts as fast as possible without regard to actually being smooth and deliberate. Whatever hundredths of a second people think they gain by slamming the lever into gears are usually turned into costly mistakes requiring engine rebuilds. What really gets me is that people seem like they pop the clutch as soon as they complete a shift. In either of my E36s with at least 4 years combined tracking/autcrossing and spirited driving, I have yet to miss a downshift (knock on wood). My E36 Dinan 3 (Getrag) was with a completely stock shifter and mounts and my M3 (ZF) now has a UUC Evo II shifter and Red TMEs. I definitely prefer the directness of my M3 and, frankly, love how it feels. A short shift kit is not required, but with new bushings and hardware, a BMW shifter is second to none. Part of high performance driving is being aware of everything going in the car, and that means knowing the exact gear you are in at a certain speed. I'm pretty sure as long as the driver stays on top of the car while at the track, autocross, or even carving up the back roads, it is almost impossible to money shift. As far as the BMW gearbox being a bad design, I disagree. Among the numerous manual cars I've driven including S2000s, NSXs, Porsche 911s, Nissan 300zx TTs, Supra TTs, none can match the smoothness and precision of a properly maintained or serviced BMW shifter. Every other shifter is either balky, notchy, completely vague or require way too much effort to put into gear; it is always a pleasure to drive a BMW spec gearbox. I take the idea of a remote shifter as a big plus as it isolates much of the vibration and noise associated with a direct lever gearbox. In the end, it comes down to preference. I am 100% satisfied with my current shifter setup. And I'm sure once I change the tranny oil (it seems rather old) it can only get better. Drive Safely, Raza
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#3. Re: Head Gasket and Studs - from admranger
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Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:45:30 -0700 From: "admranger" <admranger@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Head Gasket and Studs Rich, I went with stock head bolts and the BMP cutting ring head gasket. This after my master tech friend snapped one of the crapware, errr, raceware head studs (customer service of minus infinity from them). Billy "da wrench" Arnold recommended this setup and it has held up admirably so far. You may want to look at Vac Motorsports as they have an upgraded head gasket and I think they sell ARP studs. Regards, Kirk Lachman Sin City Chapter '95 M3 #21 I stock
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) - from Walter J
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Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 23:57:06 -0400 From: Walter J <m3gtr@adelphia.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) Raza Uddin wrote: >Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 17:45:46 -0700 >From: Raza Uddin <raza.uddin@gmail.com> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Shifters ... what's best? (kinda long and venting) > >I'm of the following that believe that the money shift is about a >99.9% preventable occurrence as long as you use proper shifting >technique. > Yeah, lots of track miles and 2 E36s here and no misses... keep the bushings fresh, changes methodical and prescise and all is well. (that really does not sell $350 shifters though) >Part of high performance driving is being aware of everything going in >the car, and that means knowing the exact gear you are in at a certain >speed. > > Abso-<insert expletive>-lutely. Nobody ever mis-shifts on a lazy drive thru the country... it only happens when things get "fast". Why is that? Is the car flustered? >As far as the BMW gearbox being a bad design, I disagree. Among the >numerous manual cars I've driven including S2000s, NSXs, Porsche 911s, >Nissan 300zx TTs, Supra TTs, none can match the smoothness and >precision of a properly maintained or serviced BMW shifter. > Agreed with one exception. The S2000 is bar none the finest cog lever I've ever had the pleasure to row. The BMW shifter ain't bad but a nice top-loader cannot be beat.
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#5. Clutch delay valve help - from dhogg
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Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 07:35:49 -0400 From: "dhogg" <dhogg@suscom.net> Subject: Clutch delay valve help O went in to do the CDV surgery on my '98 M3/4 and I couldn't find the little sucker. Exactly WHERE should I be looking? Help, please! Dave Hogg
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Clutch delay valve help - from Jay W. Hudson
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Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 06:12:59 -0700 From: "Jay W. Hudson" <jwhud@budget.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Clutch delay valve help There's a nice write-up with pics on the UUC site. www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_techtips/check_valve.htm Jay > > O went in to do the CDV surgery on my '98 M3/4 and I couldn't find the > little sucker. Exactly WHERE should I be looking? Help, please! > > > > Dave Hogg > > >
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#7. Clunk Clunk - from david kroth
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Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 07:28:35 -0700 (PDT) From: david kroth <david_kroth@yahoo.com> Subject: Clunk Clunk This morning I put new rear shocks on my '98 sedan. I've got the fronts too, but you have to start somewhere. Anyway, after finishing up the install I went for a test ride to make sure everything is in place. The car drives fine until I pull into my yard. There's a concrete gutter at the apron of my driveway that loads the car diagonally. When I cross that threshold I get a pretty decent "clunk clunk" from the back end of the car. I checked all the nuts and bolts on the rear shocks and everything is in position. I'm starting to suspect that the new, stiffer shocks are driving my RTABs harder and causing the clunk. The RTABs are original. When my wife comes home later in the day I'm going to have her drive the car in and out of the driveway while I kneel down next to it to see if I can identify the source of the noise. Any thoughts on how changing rear shocks would cause a metallic clunk at the back of the car? TIA. David Kroth david_kroth@yahoo.com Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Clunk Clunk - from Tom Reynolds
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Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:22:17 -0700 From: Tom Reynolds <kjtar@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Clunk Clunk David, Just a few questions interspersed in the body of your previous email to the list: At 09:35 AM 05/07/2005 -0500, david kroth wrote: > >Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 07:28:35 -0700 (PDT) >From: david kroth <david_kroth@yahoo.com> >Subject: Clunk Clunk > > > >This morning I put new rear shocks on my '98 sedan. >I've got the fronts too, but you have to start >somewhere. Anyway, after finishing up the install I >went for a test ride to make sure everything is in >place. > >The car drives fine until I pull into my yard. >There's >a concrete gutter at the apron of my driveway that >loads the car diagonally. When I cross that threshold >I get a pretty decent "clunk clunk" from the back end >of the car. I checked all the nuts and bolts on >the rear shocks and everything is in position. Okay, my first thought was rear shock mounts, or other rear subframe related issues. > >I'm starting to suspect that the new, stiffer shocks >are driving my RTABs harder and causing the clunk. >The RTABs are original. Sorry, what are RTABs? Rear "something" and bushings? > >When my wife comes home later in the day I'm going to >have her drive the car in and out of the driveway >while I kneel down next to it to see if I can >identify the source of the noise. David, be very sure that you guys are both on very good terms today before you, erm, expose yourself to that kind of potential danger, especially where a car is concerned. "Honey, could you just drive my car slowly over the entrance to the driveway while I kneel down here, in front of where you're going to be driving", (a sitting duck, as it were, and, oh by the way, at this moment you remember some present you should have gotten her in the past and never did). "Ready?" > >Any thoughts on how changing rear shocks would cause >a metallic clunk at the back of the car? Are the shocks adjustable, can their height be changed from a selection of several choices? Or maybe adjustable in firmness could affect the ride height a bit? Hope you find the answer and post it. Hey, remember tomorrow is Mother's Day. Best regards, Tom Reynolds Sand Springs, OK > >TIA. > > >David Kroth >david_kroth@yahoo.com > > > >Yahoo! Mail >Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: >http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > > > >************************************************* >Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > >Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > >DIGEST INFORMATION: >http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >************************************************* > > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.11.1 - Release Date: 05/02/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.11.1 - Release Date: 05/02/2005
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Clutch delay valve help - from Shelhart2@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:29:46 EDT From: Shelhart2@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Clutch delay valve help Jack the car up reasonably high and put it on stands. It's in back of the engine and connects into the transmission. UUC site has a good write up. Shel
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Clunk Clunk - from david kroth
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Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:37:43 -0700 (PDT) From: david kroth <david_kroth@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Clunk Clunk Tom wrote: > Just a few questions interspersed in the > body of your previous > email to the list: Ok! > Okay, my first thought was rear shock mounts, or > other rear subframe related issues. Shock mounts are new E34 M3 parts. Hardware is all new factory stuff. > >I'm starting to suspect that the new, stiffer > shocks > >are driving my RTABs harder and causing the clunk. > >The RTABs are original. > Sorry, what are RTABs? Rear "something" and > bushings? Rear Trailing Arm Bushings > David, be very sure that you guys are both on very > good terms today before > you, erm, expose yourself to that kind of potential > danger, especially > where a car is concerned. I'm good there. At least I think I am. Besides, I'm going to be next to the rear wheel(s), not behind or in front of the car. > Are the shocks adjustable.. Bilsteins. Not adjustable. David Kroth david_kroth@yahoo.com Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html