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#1. Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:52:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts I think everyone needs to step back and take a breather. We're all here to enjoy our cars and share ideas. I do not think what Chuck did was in any way immoral or violating any intellectual property blah blah blahs. Ya know? He has the resources to get creative and fabriate things that he needs. There are products on Turner's site that seem to be a ripoff of a competitor's product...the rear trailing arm bushing limiters come to mind as being very similar to Ground Control's setup. $90 vs. $20...big difference in price, though... What Chuck did was just document his DIY approach. If I were to have my oil pan off and had scrap aluminum handy, do you think I could easily cut out some cardboard to make my own baffle setup? You bet. And now that I have a TIG welder, I can weld aluminum as well! Yes, Turner is in the business to make products and sell them to make a living for Will and his employees as well as support their racing efforts. But some of the things are crazy expensive for what they are. When I was contemplating reinforcing my rear sway bar tabs on the new subframe, I know of two sources: Turner and Ground Control. Turner has $40 steel plates. OMG...$40 for that?!!?! Ground Control used to/still has plates for $1. Now...if I had scrap metal lying around and saw a picture of Turner's plates or GC ones, I could just make my own. Do I have access to a machine that would make nice stamped versions? Nope. But I could get something similar fashioned and weld it up. Would I sell my creation? Nope...that would be wrong unless my solution is much different. None of this stuff is rocket science and I kinda laugh when people talk about extensive R&D. To me, extensive R&D means modelling the whole rear subframe in a computer program and simulating stresses involved to derive the most efficient bracing. I doubt anyone does that here. You're just trying to triangulate the area and prevent movement while at the same time reinforcing the area....simple as that. Same thing with the oil pan baffle...you're trying to keep the oil in the pan near the pump inlet and not on the side of the block during cornering :) If you guys continue to debate this, please pass the popcorn :) Chester
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#2. RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts - from Stan Shaw
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:54:49 -0400 From: "Stan Shaw" <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> Subject: RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts Hans, We can agree to disagree I hope. Chuck used pictures of Turner's baffles to make his templates, barely a distinction. Certainly not enough for me. Regards, Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net Phone: (413) 599-0399 Fax: (413) 599-0421 Excell.Net Owner/Operator http://www.Excell.Net/ 928 Owners Club President http://www.928OC.org/ 928Racing.net Team Member http://www.928Racing.net/ "Liberty once lost is lost forever." - John Adams
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#3. Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts - from Kent L. Shephard
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:47:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kent L. Shephard" <kents@kls-consulting.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts Hi, As an engineer, I'll chime in. Turner could not patent this because a baffle for an oil pan is not unique. They couldn't patent the improvement because it's not a unique way of doing it. Now if they had come up with a unique way to create a gate in a baffle, then that's different. From my experience with cars, there aren't that many ways to put a piece of metal in an oil pan and not have it in the way. Given that, I would guess that anybody that does a baffle will have it looking very much like the Turner product. This isn't OBD-II firmware we are talking about. This is something that with some trial and error, we can assume most engineering types could come up with.You can make it at home with some shears and some additional hand tools. It's like the adjustable sway bar link. How many ways is it to make an old fashioned turnbuckle? They will all look the same. If you wanted to you could even make one from a stock link and a little time. People let's all get a grip here. Reverse engineering is the norm, not the exception. If it's unique, people will patent it. Kent > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:52:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts > > I think everyone needs to step back and take a breather. We're all here > to > enjoy our cars and share ideas. > > I do not think what Chuck did was in any way immoral or violating any > intellectual property blah blah blahs. Ya know? He has the resources to > get > creative and fabriate things that he needs. > > There are products on Turner's site that seem to be a ripoff of a > competitor's > product...the rear trailing arm bushing limiters come to mind as being > very > similar to Ground Control's setup. $90 vs. $20...big difference in price, > though... > > What Chuck did was just document his DIY approach. If I were to have my > oil > pan off and had scrap aluminum handy, do you think I could easily cut out > some > cardboard to make my own baffle setup? You bet. And now that I have a > TIG > welder, I can weld aluminum as well! > > Yes, Turner is in the business to make products and sell them to make a > living > for Will and his employees as well as support their racing efforts. But > some > of the things are crazy expensive for what they are. When I was > contemplating > reinforcing my rear sway bar tabs on the new subframe, I know of two > sources: > Turner and Ground Control. Turner has $40 steel plates. OMG...$40 for > that?!!?! Ground Control used to/still has plates for $1. Now...if I had > scrap metal lying around and saw a picture of Turner's plates or GC ones, > I > could just make my own. Do I have access to a machine that would make > nice > stamped versions? Nope. But I could get something similar fashioned and > weld > it up. Would I sell my creation? Nope...that would be wrong unless my > solution is much different. None of this stuff is rocket science and I > kinda > laugh when people talk about extensive R&D. To me, extensive R&D means > modelling the whole rear subframe in a computer program and simulating > stresses > involved to derive the most efficient bracing. I doubt anyone does that > here. > You're just trying to triangulate the area and prevent movement while at > the > same time reinforcing the area....simple as that. Same thing with the oil > pan > baffle...you're trying to keep the oil in the pan near the pump inlet and > not > on the side of the block during cornering :) > > If you guys continue to debate this, please pass the popcorn :) > > Chester > >
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#4. Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:34:09 -0700 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts On Jul 20, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Kent L. Shephard wrote: >> From my experience with cars, there aren't that many ways to put a >> piece >> > of metal in an oil pan and not have it in the way. Given that, I would > guess that anybody that does a baffle will have it looking very > much like > the Turner product. The VAC product is visibly different. Go look: http://www.vacmotorsports.com/cgi-bin/view_item.pl?item_id=416 Tony spent the time and the money to produce a different product. > Reverse engineering is the norm, not the exception. If it's unique, > people > will patent it. Reverse engineering is when you figure out how something works so you can produce something that functions the same. Copying is when you build exactly the same thing, down to the cuts and bends in the metal. This is copying. - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar
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#5. Fog light brackets - from M3Buzz
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:52:49 -0400 From: "M3Buzz" <m3buzz@comcast.net> Subject: Fog light brackets Scott - I hit a deer, or rather ran it over after the truck in front of me hit it, and it bent the spoiler back and popped both fog lights. In my case, it was a small strip of plastic on the light itself, near the connection with the wire, that kept the lights from going back in. The brackets are fine. I ended up leaving them out, and took the brackets and all the hardware out - the left side makes a great intake channel for the cold air intake i built. Anyway, if you verify that it's the brackets that are the problem, and not the situation i had with the plastic strip on each light, i'd be fine with selling you mine for whatever you think is fair (and whatever actual shipping is). Let me know. Tom > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 07:05:52 -0700 (PDT) > From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> > Subject: Fog light brackets > > At our local autocross event on Sunday, my driver's > side fog light fell out :-/ Luckily it wasn't > damaged. Both lights have been obviously loose since > I bought the car. I haven't invested the time to find > out why, but now is a good time :-) The plastic > bracket on each side is broken in a different way so I > need to replace both of them. What do these things > cost? I am a little afraid to ask :-) Looking at > the design, I would expect these to be a pretty > commonly replaced item, so hopefully they aren't > outrageous ... hopefully :-) > > -Scott Spangenberg > -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car > -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car > -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!) > -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter >
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#6. Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts - from Robert Brooks
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:08:52 -0600 From: Robert Brooks <m3rb@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Oil sump baffle kits...was...Engine mounts Regarding DIY copying of commercial designs... note that our system of intellectual property laws is a social construct designed to encourage innovation and its use. There is not an ethical issue here, as I see it. Of course, if the list owner wants to make rules on such content for the benefit of sponsors, that's fair game. Here is an excellent treatise on the subject that I found: www.icsr.org/presentations/KTPshort.doc
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#7. Re: [E36M3] JTD Tranny Mount - from Mdriver13@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:55:27 EDT From: Mdriver13@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] JTD Tranny Mount Hi Jonathan, I have the JT Design STN rings and I think they do a really nice job firming up the tranny mounts. Just a little vibration and the price is right. As always, every one of Jim's performance products serves a unique purpose. cheers, Bob Gill 97 ///M3 coupe Philly Region SCCA 2nd Place BSP - PA State Championship 2004
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#8. Re: JTD Tranny Mount - from TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:06:47 -0700 From: "TIMOTHY WILLIAMS" <etimw@msn.com> Subject: Re: JTD Tranny Mount Jonathan, Dunno how loud your intake, exhaust, and flywheel noises are, but I'm guessing you'll hear it -- it's much louder than the stock mounts. You'll absolutely feel it in the seat of your pants. It sure keeps the tranny in place. Highly recommended for track use; lots of cabin noise and vibration for daily driving in my experience. I kind of liked it... passengers didn't. Moral of story -- do track days and ditch the passengers! Tim Williams _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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#9. WTB: 18x9" SSR Comp or SSR Integral wheels - from Chris Teague
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:33:34 -0700 From: "Chris Teague" <cteague@cox.net> Subject: WTB: 18x9" SSR Comp or SSR Integral wheels Let me know if anyone has a set of 4 for sale, or knows anyone who does. Thanks, Chris 97 M3/4
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#10. Re: [E36M3] WTB: 18x9" SSR Comp or SSR Integral wheels - from Chester Wong
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] WTB: 18x9" SSR Comp or SSR Integral wheels I have one SSR Comp 17x9 in anthracite...brand new...for $250 OBO. Chester --- Chris Teague <cteague@cox.net> wrote: > Let me know if anyone has a set of 4 for sale, or knows anyone who does.