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#1. [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from Townsend, William
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:25:44 -0400 From: "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> Subject: [E36M3] Cam ends square? Long delay here, on vacation and catching up! So when I did the head on my 96 M3 I followed the TIS procedure to verify the timing before taking any of the parts off the head. When I locked the motor at TDC with the pin. The cam squares were not parallel. BUT the vanos cup was not seated and the dummy tensioner was not in. I rotated the cam so that the vanos cup seated completely and put in the tensioner tool. Once that was done, the cam squares were parallel to the head. This is verified by the cam locating tool. According to BMW the motor is correctly timed with this procedure. --Bill 96 M3 red
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Front Subframe (WAS: Rear Floor Tearing Out) - from Scott Spangenberg
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:01:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Front Subframe (WAS: Rear Floor Tearing Out) > About the FRONT subframe (jez there is always > something ;-| ) does anyone > know when the stronger subframe cut into the 95 > model year? My car is a > June build. On this subject, my car had the front subframe replaced by the previous owner. The dealer did the work. Is it likely that the replacement unit is the reinforced one? -Scott Spangenberg -95 Avus M3, Track and Summer car -98 Neon ACR, Autox and Winter car -88 Mustang, CP Autox car (2006, maybe!) -05 F150, Girlfriend's & parts go-getter ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from Chester Wong
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:12:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? I'm not so sure that what you did is correct. To me, when the engine is at TDC, the cams should locate at the TDC position regardless of the position of the VANOS cup. Was your car ever worked on in the past? If so, the mechanics could have timed your cams incorrectly which leaves you a bit retarded (the car, that is...haha). It's over-rotating the cams and sucking in the cup all the way that shouldn't be done. Chester --- "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> wrote: > So when I did the head on my 96 M3 I followed the TIS procedure to > verify the timing before taking any of the parts off the head. When I > locked the motor at TDC with the pin. The cam squares were not parallel. > BUT the vanos cup was not seated and the dummy tensioner was not in. I > rotated the cam so that the vanos cup seated completely and put in the > tensioner tool. Once that was done, the cam squares were parallel to the > head. This is verified by the cam locating tool. According to BMW the > motor is correctly timed with this procedure.
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#4. RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from Townsend, William
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:22:59 -0400 From: "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? The motor was never opened before me. The vanos unit was very worn. I just followed what the TIS described and had the expected outcome that the TIS said was correct. I do not know why the cup was not fully seated when the motor was shut off other than the vanos unit was bad. (made lots of noise!!!) Once I reassembled it I naturally repeated the timing procedure after turning the motor manually through two full cycles in the correct direction. There, the vanos cup stayed seated. I also did the advance check (energizing the vanos unit) that they have in the TIS and it also checked out. Motor runs and pulls just like before, just no leak in the head and the rattles are gone! --Bill -----Original Message----- From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 11:13 AM To: Townsend, William; E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? I'm not so sure that what you did is correct. To me, when the engine is at TDC, the cams should locate at the TDC position regardless of the position of the VANOS cup. Was your car ever worked on in the past? If so, the mechanics could have timed your cams incorrectly which leaves you a bit retarded (the car, that is...haha). It's over-rotating the cams and sucking in the cup all the way that shouldn't be done. Chester --- "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> wrote: > So when I did the head on my 96 M3 I followed the TIS procedure to > verify the timing before taking any of the parts off the head. When I > locked the motor at TDC with the pin. The cam squares were not parallel. > BUT the vanos cup was not seated and the dummy tensioner was not in. I > rotated the cam so that the vanos cup seated completely and put in the > tensioner tool. Once that was done, the cam squares were parallel to > the head. This is verified by the cam locating tool. According to BMW > the motor is correctly timed with this procedure.
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#5. RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from Chester Wong
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:33:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? Hmm. Odd. I find that when you turn the cam as much as possible and then while turning the crank manually while alternating between energizing and turning off the VANOS solenoid that the cam will then become retarded. Simply energizing it and turning it off in place will not reveal this. Chester --- "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> wrote: > The motor was never opened before me. The vanos unit was very worn. I > just followed what the TIS described and had the expected outcome that > the TIS said was correct. I do not know why the cup was not fully seated > when the motor was shut off other than the vanos unit was bad. (made > lots of noise!!!) Once I reassembled it I naturally repeated the timing > procedure after turning the motor manually through two full cycles in > the correct direction. There, the vanos cup stayed seated. I also did > the advance check (energizing the vanos unit) that they have in the TIS > and it also checked out. Motor runs and pulls just like before, just no > leak in the head and the rattles are gone!
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#6. RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from Townsend, William
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:47:11 -0400 From: "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? I don't have the TIS on my work computer here. (and I am still wondering why??) But the procedure was to get the motor to tdc, measure intake cam lobe distance from the #1 plug hole. Energize the vanos, spin motor till back at tdc, take same measurement. They gave specific measurement numbers that I cannot recall. Will look at TIS to see if I missed any parts of the test... I had also marked all the parts and they also were back to their exact positions after reassembly. It all made sense at the time based on the procedures in the TIS. Dunno. Will be doing this again soon, my 328 (145K miles) has a slight head gasket leak and will do this all over again. What joy. --Bill PS it is a good thing to know if your head gasket is going. Guy at watkins glen DelVal school found out the hard way. Head gasket went at speed. Piece of the gaske broke off and nicked the head, needed it milled. Was not sure of the state of one of the pistons when we last spoke. Big $$ fix (plus a tow) once it goes. -----Original Message----- From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 11:34 AM To: Townsend, William; E36M3 Subject: RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? Hmm. Odd. I find that when you turn the cam as much as possible and then while turning the crank manually while alternating between energizing and turning off the VANOS solenoid that the cam will then become retarded. Simply energizing it and turning it off in place will not reveal this. Chester --- "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> wrote: > The motor was never opened before me. The vanos unit was very worn. I > just followed what the TIS described and had the expected outcome that > the TIS said was correct. I do not know why the cup was not fully > seated when the motor was shut off other than the vanos unit was bad. > (made lots of noise!!!) Once I reassembled it I naturally repeated the > timing procedure after turning the motor manually through two full > cycles in the correct direction. There, the vanos cup stayed seated. I > also did the advance check (energizing the vanos unit) that they have > in the TIS and it also checked out. Motor runs and pulls just like > before, just no leak in the head and the rattles are gone!
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from loweseaton@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:48:24 -0400 From: loweseaton@aol.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? Bill (and Chester), You did right. The VaNoS unit may not (probably not) be fully seated when you shut the engine off and take the valve cover off. The proper way to check the timing is to turn the crankshaft by hand (big wrench on crank pulley) two complete crank revolutions in the direction the motor turns BEFORE putting the TDC pin in the flywheel and setting the jig on the camshaft blocks. I can give you the name of a very large and well know BMW repair shop in Dallas that doesn't know this (lawsuit pending). When you turn the crankshaft by hand, you turn the main cam timing chain which in turn rotates the secondary cam timing chain. You take up all the slack in the chains and reset the VaNoS unit to fully retarded position (all the way in). Since there is no computer controling the oil pressure in the VaNoS unit, the oil easily drains out allowing the VaNoS unit to slide in and thereby get an accurate measure of the cam timing. Lowell Seaton '95 M3 - BTDT -----Original Message----- From: Townsend, William <wtownsen@enterasys.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:29:20 -0500 Subject: RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:22:59 -0400 From: "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Cam ends square? The motor was never opened before me. The vanos unit was very worn. I just followed what the TIS described and had the expected outcome that the TIS said was correct. I do not know why the cup was not fully seated when the motor was shut off other than the vanos unit was bad. (made lots of noise!!!) Once I reassembled it I naturally repeated the timing procedure after turning the motor manually through two full cycles in the correct direction. There, the vanos cup stayed seated. I also did the advance check (energizing the vanos unit) that they have in the TIS and it also checked out. Motor runs and pulls just like before, just no leak in the head and the rattles are gone! --Bill -----Original Message----- From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 11:13 AM To: Townsend, William; E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? I'm not so sure that what you did is correct. To me, when the engine is at TDC, the cams should locate at the TDC position regardless of the position of the VANOS cup. Was your car ever worked on in the past? If so, the mechanics could have timed your cams incorrectly which leaves you a bit retarded (the car, that is...haha). It's over-rotating the cams and sucking in the cup all the way that shouldn't be done. Chester --- "Townsend, William" <wtownsen@enterasys.com> wrote: > So when I did the head on my 96 M3 I followed the TIS procedure to > verify the timing before taking any of the parts off the head. When I > locked the motor at TDC with the pin. The cam squares were not parallel. > BUT the vanos cup was not seated and the dummy tensioner was not in. I > rotated the cam so that the vanos cup seated completely and put in the > tensioner tool. Once that was done, the cam squares were parallel to > the head. This is verified by the cam locating tool. According to BMW > the motor is correctly timed with this procedure. ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#8. re: Rear Floor Tearing Out - from marco
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:16:15 -0700 From: "marco" <m3driver@iname.com> Subject: re: Rear Floor Tearing Out The strengthened front subframe was available at least as late 97 from BMW. That's when mine broke and needed to be replaced (before the days of the reinforcement kits). I've been running that since then with no problems on my racecar. I think the factory switch over was in late 96. Marco -----Original Message----- From: Alan Leung [mailto:alanleung100@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:49 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [e36m3] [E36M3] re: Rear Floor Tearing Out Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:47:22 -0500 From: "Alan Leung" <alanleung100@hotmail.com> Subject: re: Rear Floor Tearing Out I read somewhere before that all E36 M3s have the stronger rear floor mounts but in the latest issue of Roundel Tech Talk a 97 M3 apparently had it's rear floor torn out at 130k miles. That made me rethink how true the above assumption is. Don also mentioned other sources that believe that the reinforcement started only from 98 onward. Does anyone have the straight dope? About the FRONT subframe (jez there is always something ;-| ) does anyone know when the stronger subframe cut into the 95 model year? My car is a June build. Alan 95 M3 >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:32:44 -0700 >From: "marco" <m3driver@iname.com> >Subject: RE: [e36m3] [E36M3] Rear floor tearing out If it's an M3 it has the stronger rear subframe mounts. But still check them if the car is heavily tracked. Repair in San Francisco runs $750 to $1500 depending on how bad the damage is. But that is at a shop that has done probably dozens of those repairs. It used to be prohibitive, and may still be costly if a shop has no experience doing the repair. If it's a regular E36 and it's tracked or just even being driven hard on the street it's only a matter of time until it happens. Sounds like banging coming from the rear. A friend's street E36 325is just had it done due to severe damage (I told him to take it in months before he finally did) and it ran him about $1500. If by now you haven't replace the rear toe bushings, do it. Also you may want to just proactively replace all the rear subframe bushings, while those are being replaced you can do a good inspection of the rear subframe bushing area. Early 95 M3s had an earlier design on the front subframe. I would check that and either use the turner kit or buy a new subframe that comes with reinforcements from the factory. Otherwise you're motor mounts will pull out of the subframe eventually. Marco ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#9. Re: Subframe - from marco
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:16:38 -0700 From: "marco" <m3driver@iname.com> Subject: Re: Subframe it's really hard to see them if the subframe is on the car. My M3 is a 5/94 production date and mine has them. Also M3s were released earlier in Europe and we got the same M3 chassis in the USA. I've seen ONE M3 without them and that was imported race car built on a late 92 chassis. The aftermarket ones are easier to spot since typically they don't have all the factory coatings on them. What you really should be concerned about is having the rear trailing arm bushing mounting "holes" welded along the perimeter of the "hole". cheers Marco -----Original Message----- From: Chip Mitchell [mailto:chipmitchell@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 6:49 AM To: E36M3 Subject: [e36m3] [E36M3] Re: Subframe Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:41:30 -0400 From: Chip Mitchell <chipmitchell@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Subframe Should you be able to see these mounts, as if they were welded in later? The underside of my car (early '95 production) looks pretty much like other E36's I've seen in the area of the subframe mounts. Based on the photos that Turner has posted of the additional mounts, it seems like I should be able to see them. Chip > > -------------------- 10 -------------------- > Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:32:44 -0700 > From: "marco" <m3driver@iname.com> > Subject: RE: [e36m3] [E36M3] Rear floor tearing out > > > > If it's an M3 it has the stronger rear subframe mounts. ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? - from Andrew Kalman
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:20:17 -0700 From: Andrew Kalman <aek@pumpkininc.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Cam ends square? I have the factory tools to do the cam lock-down, and so I can't comment on whether the square end tops were parallel (I presume they were) when I did the cam timing. I followed the Bentley procedure and they timed out nicely. One thing that I did find cool is that BMW put a small post down low, sticking straight out of the block, above the crank sprocket. It's there to prevent the cam chain from getting stuck "down there" if it falls in and/or you turn the motor while the chain is in the un-routed position. I thought that's pretty cool of them to think of that. -- ______________________________________ Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D. aek@pumpkininc.com