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#1. Re: [E36M3] Guide Bolts? - from Marc Plante
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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:13:49 -0400 From: Marc Plante <marcva@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Guide Bolts? Sounds like the guide bolts were pretty violently over-torqued. You don't use power tools in there, do you? I know it's usually OK to use an air gun on the caliper bracket bolts, but the guide bolts are hand tightened parts. I use a small palm ratchet to manage my torque when tightening my guide bolts. It also allows me to spin them out faster. For the rears, I got a cheapo ratcheting 7/8mm closed end wrench from Sears(!) that I slip my 7 mm allen socket into rather than buying the stubby Snap-on. When tightening, I think of it as a moderate twist of the wrist with a palm ratchet to get them snug. Less torque than plugs sicne you're not dealing with crush-washers. Marc Plante 1997 E36 M3/4 67k 2005 Child (any day now) Vienna, VA
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#2. RE: [e36m3] [E36M3] Check your guide bolts! - from marco
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Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:11:57 -0700 From: "marco" <m3driver@iname.com> Subject: RE: [e36m3] [E36M3] Check your guide bolts! classic sign of over tightening. The torque spec is near zero on those puppies! Marco -----Original Message----- From: Robert S. Hatrak II [mailto:rob@hatrak.com] Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:53 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [e36m3] [E36M3] Check your guide bolts! Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:49:26 -0700 From: "Robert S. Hatrak II" <rob@hatrak.com> Subject: Check your guide bolts! While preparing for a track event this last weekend I discovered a problem with several of my guide bolts when changing brake pads. Two of the bolts had severely stretched threads, and one of the bolts snapped. Thanks to the help and generosity of local club racer Kirk Lachman, I was able to attend the event. Kirk quickly was able to remove the threads that had snapped off inside the caliper and loaned me a handful of new bolts. I made the mistake of not having any spares on hand, and without Kirk that mistake would have cost me a missed event as well as my entry fee. I highly recommend that anyone who changes their own brakes keep some spares on hand. You never know when you may need them. Thanks Kirk! Rob Hatrak E36 M3 Sin City Chapter - BMW CCA ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#3. Re: [E36M3] RE: Canadian Car - from Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:18:49 -0400 From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: Canadian Car >My US-spec car has #2, and express up on both driver >and passenger front windows. :-) Tilt wheel would >have been nice. I used to have a very early '95 M3 with tilt wheel, way overrated. I would rank it up there with airplane reclining seats (the old days when they reclined 1.8 degrees rearward). Carlos. 98 M3 no tilt wheel and I don't miss it
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#4. Re: Timing chain cover: Reporting - from Steve Klein
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:06:20 -0500 From: Steve Klein <klein@robinsonad.com> Subject: Re: Timing chain cover: Reporting Unless someone with official experience chimes in otherwise, I'm officially stating my belief that the timing chain cover on the S50B30 can only be removed once the head has been taken off. I finally surmounted the 22mm bolt on the front of the crankshaft, but only after splitting my forehead open about an inch and a half when the extension slipped off the wrench at full torque. I was too concerned with getting the skin to stick back together to get pics of my skull (or the silvery-blue membrane that covers it), but I'm pleased to report my medical/butterfly skills will give me a scar about as dashing as the Man in the Hathaway Shirt. So after removing the bolt that holds the flange that the harmonic balancer bolts to, the crank sprocket can be seen past the oil seal. With this seal removed, there *might* be enough clearance to work the chain over the end of the shaft, but I didn't have a seal puller or new seal, so at this point I don't know. From the diagrams on the ETK / rust.mine.nu, it also appears that there are three bolts extending from the head down into the front timing cover. I left the valve cover on so I could not verify this (I will when I triple check my VANOS alignment), but it seems that without removing the head and loosening the oil pan, removal of the timing cover would be a one way process. The head and oil pan gaskets are compressed from above and below, meaning without their removal, the cover stays, or the gaskets get mangled. At least this confirms it. Now I'm lying in wait until such time as I can pull the head for refreshing and do the job properly. A perfect time to upgrade the gasket in anticipation of a twinscrew methinks... (:devillook smiley) Thanks for tuning in, Steve On Oct 14, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Chester Wong wrote: > Good luck! > > --- Steve Klein <klein@robinsonad.com> wrote: > > >> What is it they say? The pioneers get the arrows, the settlers get >> the land? >> >> I'll just have to document and report back next week. >> >> Thanks for the input! >> Steve
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software - from Gary
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:29:07 -0500 From: "Gary" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software fine tuning the fuel... If you just need to tune the fuel go buy a APEXi SAFC and tune your fuel on a dyno it will get the car pretty close cost around 350 dollars. Ignition tuning is different story...AEM stuff works very very nice. I have seen several on Supra's and the beta unit on an MR2 turbo. I am getting the AEM for my Miata turbo. And possibly my M3 once I supercharge it. Gary Gray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:33 PM Subject: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:36:14 -0400 > From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> > Subject: Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > Guys, > Just a follow up.... a recently blown head gasket on a '97 M3 at 115K led > down the slippery slope......ended up doing a valve job, replacing > pistons, > rings, bearings, etc., since it was an "oil burner". Could've just > replaced > the head gasket and sold it, or do the rebuild in a year or 2, but that > would be too easy. Couldn't resist putting in the Sunbelt cams "while > you're > down there". The car previously had JC software, CAI, underdrive pulleys > and > exhaust, just to name a few go fast goodies.Couldn't swing the entire cam > kit at this time but will be done shortly. Given this, there was some > question as to how the cams were going to work with the "stock" JC > software....what we found was that it's a rough idle and runs lean, would > be > fine if the base idle could be bumped up to 1200 RPM , but idle is not > electronically or mechanically adjustable on this model year. Seems to run > fine under load, but definitely need the rest of the cam kit goodies to > optimize the cams. Can't be pushing the upper RPM"s without the larger > injectors. > > All the cam kits out there have software designed for the Shricks, but the > Sunbelts are the new kids on the block with BIG improvements over the > Shricks (20HP!!). My guess is that anyone doing the cam kit upgrade would > go > for the Sunbelts over the Shricks, as this is a no brainer. I hear most of > the club racers have made the swap, and the first batch of Sunbelt cams > sold > out quick. I was curious as to how compatible the Sunbelt cams would be > with > that software, but it turns out that new software is currently being > developed for the Sunbelts. Should hit the market in a few months once > they > work out the bugs.This new kit will include a larger air flow meter and > you > must send in the ECU, as it's not a simple "flash" like the JC software. > All > this info from our list sponsor friends at Bimmerworld (thanks Rob, hurry > up > with the software!!). > > Another option worth serious consideration is to use an AEM stand alone > ECU > instead ....slightly more $$ than the cam kit software ($1600 vs. $1100), > but infinitely adjustable for future mods and reportedly worth an extra 15 > HP since you can tune on a dyno (also, no waiting). Anyone out there gone > this route? Engine is still being broken in but feels strong, can't wait > for > the rest of the cam kit and some track time. > > Brad > '97 M3 w/ Sunbelts > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >
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#6. RE: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software - from Brad DeMotte
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:47:43 -0400 From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software Gary, Looks like the price of the AEM EMS skyrocketed from what I thought could be had for $1600 to $3200 for a Plug'n PLay system from EVO sport, with an estimate of an additional $1800 to install and tune. I decided I don't need the adjustability as this will be last of the HP mods, so I believe I'm gonna have Turner burn a custom chip on their dyno...... for a lot less money. Brad -----Original Message----- From: Gary [mailto:probikeguy@probikeusa.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:33 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:29:07 -0500 From: "Gary" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software fine tuning the fuel... If you just need to tune the fuel go buy a APEXi SAFC and tune your fuel on a dyno it will get the car pretty close cost around 350 dollars. Ignition tuning is different story...AEM stuff works very very nice. I have seen several on Supra's and the beta unit on an MR2 turbo. I am getting the AEM for my Miata turbo. And possibly my M3 once I supercharge it. Gary Gray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:33 PM Subject: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:36:14 -0400 > From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> > Subject: Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > Guys, > Just a follow up.... a recently blown head gasket on a '97 M3 at 115K led > down the slippery slope......ended up doing a valve job, replacing > pistons, > rings, bearings, etc., since it was an "oil burner". Could've just > replaced > the head gasket and sold it, or do the rebuild in a year or 2, but that > would be too easy. Couldn't resist putting in the Sunbelt cams "while > you're > down there". The car previously had JC software, CAI, underdrive pulleys > and > exhaust, just to name a few go fast goodies.Couldn't swing the entire cam > kit at this time but will be done shortly. Given this, there was some > question as to how the cams were going to work with the "stock" JC > software....what we found was that it's a rough idle and runs lean, would > be > fine if the base idle could be bumped up to 1200 RPM , but idle is not > electronically or mechanically adjustable on this model year. Seems to run > fine under load, but definitely need the rest of the cam kit goodies to > optimize the cams. Can't be pushing the upper RPM"s without the larger > injectors. > > All the cam kits out there have software designed for the Shricks, but the > Sunbelts are the new kids on the block with BIG improvements over the > Shricks (20HP!!). My guess is that anyone doing the cam kit upgrade would > go > for the Sunbelts over the Shricks, as this is a no brainer. I hear most of > the club racers have made the swap, and the first batch of Sunbelt cams > sold > out quick. I was curious as to how compatible the Sunbelt cams would be > with > that software, but it turns out that new software is currently being > developed for the Sunbelts. Should hit the market in a few months once > they > work out the bugs.This new kit will include a larger air flow meter and > you > must send in the ECU, as it's not a simple "flash" like the JC software. > All > this info from our list sponsor friends at Bimmerworld (thanks Rob, hurry > up > with the software!!). > > Another option worth serious consideration is to use an AEM stand alone > ECU > instead ....slightly more $$ than the cam kit software ($1600 vs. $1100), > but infinitely adjustable for future mods and reportedly worth an extra 15 > HP since you can tune on a dyno (also, no waiting). Anyone out there gone > this route? Engine is still being broken in but feels strong, can't wait > for > the rest of the cam kit and some track time. > > Brad > '97 M3 w/ Sunbelts > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > *** *************************************************
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software - from Gary
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:53:46 -0500 From: "Gary" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software WOW pretty steep for Plug N play on an AEM....Installing ant tuning for 1800, on top of purchase price of 3200! ahh most of the plug and play stuff is around 2500. Plug and play takes a whole total of about 1/2 hour to plug in...Seen it done numerous times at my buddies shop..Tuning is another story...still sounds kind of steep...Maybe I need to get my buddy to make some plug and play version!!! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> To: "'Gary'" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> Cc: <E36M3@BMW-M.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: RE: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > Gary, > Looks like the price of the AEM EMS skyrocketed from what I thought could > be > had for $1600 to $3200 for a Plug'n PLay system from EVO sport, with an > estimate of an additional $1800 to install and tune. I decided I don't > need > the adjustability as this will be last of the HP mods, so I believe I'm > gonna have Turner burn a custom chip on their dyno...... for a lot less > money. > > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary [mailto:probikeguy@probikeusa.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:33 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:29:07 -0500 > From: "Gary" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > fine tuning the fuel... > > If you just need to tune the fuel go buy a APEXi SAFC and tune your fuel > on > a dyno it will get the car pretty close cost around 350 dollars. Ignition > tuning is different story...AEM stuff works very very nice. I have seen > several on Supra's and the beta unit on an MR2 turbo. I am getting the AEM > for my Miata turbo. And possibly my M3 once I supercharge it. > > Gary Gray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> > To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:33 PM > Subject: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > >> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:36:14 -0400 >> From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> >> Subject: Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software >> >> Guys, >> Just a follow up.... a recently blown head gasket on a '97 M3 at 115K led >> down the slippery slope......ended up doing a valve job, replacing >> pistons, >> rings, bearings, etc., since it was an "oil burner". Could've just >> replaced >> the head gasket and sold it, or do the rebuild in a year or 2, but that >> would be too easy. Couldn't resist putting in the Sunbelt cams "while >> you're >> down there". The car previously had JC software, CAI, underdrive pulleys >> and >> exhaust, just to name a few go fast goodies.Couldn't swing the entire cam >> kit at this time but will be done shortly. Given this, there was some >> question as to how the cams were going to work with the "stock" JC >> software....what we found was that it's a rough idle and runs lean, would >> be >> fine if the base idle could be bumped up to 1200 RPM , but idle is not >> electronically or mechanically adjustable on this model year. Seems to >> run >> fine under load, but definitely need the rest of the cam kit goodies to >> optimize the cams. Can't be pushing the upper RPM"s without the larger >> injectors. >> >> All the cam kits out there have software designed for the Shricks, but >> the >> Sunbelts are the new kids on the block with BIG improvements over the >> Shricks (20HP!!). My guess is that anyone doing the cam kit upgrade would >> go >> for the Sunbelts over the Shricks, as this is a no brainer. I hear most >> of >> the club racers have made the swap, and the first batch of Sunbelt cams >> sold >> out quick. I was curious as to how compatible the Sunbelt cams would be >> with >> that software, but it turns out that new software is currently being >> developed for the Sunbelts. Should hit the market in a few months once >> they >> work out the bugs.This new kit will include a larger air flow meter and >> you >> must send in the ECU, as it's not a simple "flash" like the JC software. >> All >> this info from our list sponsor friends at Bimmerworld (thanks Rob, hurry >> up >> with the software!!). >> >> Another option worth serious consideration is to use an AEM stand alone >> ECU >> instead ....slightly more $$ than the cam kit software ($1600 vs. $1100), >> but infinitely adjustable for future mods and reportedly worth an extra >> 15 >> HP since you can tune on a dyno (also, no waiting). Anyone out there gone >> this route? Engine is still being broken in but feels strong, can't wait >> for >> the rest of the cam kit and some track time. >> >> Brad >> '97 M3 w/ Sunbelts >> >> >> ************************************************* >> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: >> >> Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >> Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >> Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >> Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >> Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >> Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com >> >> DIGEST INFORMATION: >> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >> ************************************************* >> >> >> > > > > > *** > ************************************************* > > > > >
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#8. RE: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software - from Brad DeMotte
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:10:45 -0400 From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software That's what I thought!! It kills me......"stock" JC software is $300, then jumps to $1200 with the cam kit. $1600 for the AEM was still reasonable, but $3200 is crazy unless you're racin'to win. Installation "starts" at $1800, right off their website...includes installation,"engineering" time and 2 dyno runs. Brad -----Original Message----- From: Gary [mailto:probikeguy@probikeusa.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:54 PM To: brad@demottearchitects.com Cc: E36M3@BMW-M.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software WOW pretty steep for Plug N play on an AEM....Installing ant tuning for 1800, on top of purchase price of 3200! ahh most of the plug and play stuff is around 2500. Plug and play takes a whole total of about 1/2 hour to plug in...Seen it done numerous times at my buddies shop..Tuning is another story...still sounds kind of steep...Maybe I need to get my buddy to make some plug and play version!!! Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad DeMotte" <brad@demottearchitects.com> To: "'Gary'" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> Cc: <E36M3@BMW-M.net> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:47 PM Subject: RE: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > Gary, > Looks like the price of the AEM EMS skyrocketed from what I thought could > be > had for $1600 to $3200 for a Plug'n PLay system from EVO sport, with an > estimate of an additional $1800 to install and tune. I decided I don't > need > the adjustability as this will be last of the HP mods, so I believe I'm > gonna have Turner burn a custom chip on their dyno...... for a lot less > money. > > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary [mailto:probikeguy@probikeusa.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:33 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:29:07 -0500 > From: "Gary" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Sunbelt Cams/Cam Kit Software > > fine tuning the fuel... > > If you just need to tune the fuel go buy a APEXi SAFC and tune your fuel > on > a dyno it will get the car pretty close cost around 350 dollars. Ignition > tuning is different story...AEM stuff works very very nice. I have seen > several on Supra's and the beta unit on an MR2 turbo. I am getting the AEM > for my Miata turbo. And possibly my M3 once I supercharge it. > > Gary Gray > - > > >> >> >> ************************************************* >> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: >> >> Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >> Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >> Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >> Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >> Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >> Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com >> >> DIGEST INFORMATION: >> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >> ************************************************* >> >> >> > > > > > > > > >
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#9. Control arms... - from Som Naderi
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:11:56 -0800 From: "Som Naderi" <som@dimensionracing.com> Subject: Control arms... Group, I need to swap my front control arms. After looking over old posts and checking out photos and whatnot, this is what I'm looking at so far: - Aluminum E30M3 Control Arms - Treehouse Racing Bushings The bushings all appear to be pressed already. As far as I can tell, this would make this a 4 bolt job (2 for the Treehouse bushing, 1 for the middle of the control arm, one for the control arm at the hub). However, given the number of times I've seen this topic come up, I don't suspect it'll be that easy. Is it? Also, I was under the impression that the control arm controls the direction of vertical movement of the wheel. Can someone explain to me what aspects of the alignment are affected that require an alignment to be done? Lastly, cost. I've read past posts saying that, with labor, this job is a $600 job. If it's as easy as I'm thinking (since I'm bypassing doing the bushings) I'll do this myself. Turner sells the control arms for $240 *apiece* and Bimmerworld sells the bushings for $170 -- which puts me at $650 already. Am I missing something here? Is there a cheaper place to get those control arms? Is it worth it over getting the steel E36M3 arms (which are only $50 bucks cheaper at bimmerparts.com). I read somewhere that someone got the control arms for $80 apiece. As of now I'm assuming the parts are more expensive now because the bushings are already fitted which makes the labor MUCH easier. Is this correct? As a note, this is my daily driver but I track it about 6-10 times a year. Thanks everyone for the help... - Som -- 98 M3
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Control arms... - from Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:04:18 -0400 From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com Subject: Re: [E36M3] Control arms... >Can someone explain to me what aspects >of the alignment are affected that require an alignment to be done? More like an alignment check, if the old ball joints were sloppy things may change with brand new control arms, but to keep things simple everyone says get an alignment. >Lastly, cost. I've read past posts saying that, with labor, this job is a >$600 job. That's cheap considering the parts alone are probably in the $400-470 range (not including the brackets here). >If it's as easy as I'm thinking Nope. You can run into problems getting the ball joints loose from the subframe. Many have failed at this, a pickle fork and a big fookin' hammer can work wonders here. I've also had it where it took about an hour to an hour and a half to complete both sides. Sometimes wrenching skills or lack thereof play a big part of this. >Is it worth it over getting the steel E36M3 arms To me No. E30 control arms IMO are weaker than E36 M3 control arms. I would do it if there was some national championship on the line and the bastard who's going to beat me has a super light weight car and I could actually use the 7 lbs savings or whatever these control arms gain you. Personally I would stick E36 M3 control arms on my E30s. :-) Carlos.