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#1. Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S - from debuhr@comcast.net
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:16:18 +0000 From: debuhr@comcast.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S Change the control arm bushing from soft rubber to poly in any C5 and the car is completely transformed. The C5 has nice weighted steering at speed, good on center and lots of road feel. Those damn stock bushing deflect too much is all. The other nice thing about the C5 is that understeer is not nearly as much of a problem at an E36. You can carry more speed into a corner instead of relying on slow in fast out. > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:12:28 -0800 > From: Scott M <smlists@pacbell.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > > Z06 had pretty good steering feel and feedback, but I actually prefer the C4 > steering... Much like BMW, GM is making the new products softer and > gentler... which isn't better to guys like us.... but is for the 95% that > buy the cars, so.. > > on 11/15/05 9:31 AM, Jon Phillips at jphillips@futurenetworkusa.com wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:24:39 -0800 > > From: Jon Phillips <jphillips@futurenetworkusa.com> > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > > > > True enough, re., your Z06 vs Cayman S comparo. But I wasn't even > > beginning to factor in price. In fact, I wasn't even looking at > > horsepower or potential track times when I mentioned the Cayman. The > > Cayman interests me because it's a mid-engined car with (apparently) > > incredible chassis rigidity. Reportedly, it bears all of the Boxter's > > best pure driving qualities, but also erases the Boxter's handling foibles. > > > > For me, it's more about fun factor and steering feel than track times... > > I have heard that while Corvettes can be made to go blindingly fast, > > they do so with a dead steering feel and feedback. The book on Boxsters, > > meanwhile, is that they have great steering feel, weighting, feedback, > > etc, but that they plow too much out of the box. I figure a well-tuned > > Cayman -- or maybe even a stock Cayman -- should correct this. > > > > Anyhow, add in the "luxury" refinement and comfort of a $60K car, and > > the Cayman becomes a very intriguing dual-purpose street/track car. > > > > on 11/15/2005 9:11 AM Alan Leung said the following: > > > >> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:04:44 -0600 > >> From: "Alan Leung" <alanleung100@hotmail.com> > >> Subject: RE: RX8 now Cayman S > >> > >> While I have always secretly hoped that the Boxster would be made in > >> hardtop form I have a feeling that the Cayman is a bit on the "too > >> little too late" side. A boxster can be had for more reasonable price > >> now but as a convertible it's not very trackworthy. While the Cayman > >> is a dream come true at 60G new it's got to be a > >> street/occasional-track car and it'll be years before the price will > >> come down enough for dedicated track use. At that pirce range the new > >> Z06 should hands down be the best new choice for track. I think the > >> Cayman is a very handsome car but with only 295 hp it's very hard to > >> make the math work. > >> > >> Alan > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Cayman S: Now THIS is car that looks incredible on paper. > >> > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > ************************************************* > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > >
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#2. RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? - from Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:17:02 -0500 From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? Marco wrote: >It's not "bad", it's just old. A bit twitchier at the limit, an E36 is much >more forgiving. What? I'm not sure I agree with that. I do agree the E36 rear suspension is superior but when an E36 goes you best be quick about it or you're going to spin. An E30 is easy as pie to catch and I've driven different ones. E30 M3 that was mine for 5 years, never spun, E30 325is daily driver, plenty of sideways moments in it no spin, E30 332iS (the first Zionsville 3.2L car) sideways a bunch of times in it and again no spins. Not that I'm some sort of God's gift to driving, far from it actually but I think the suspension communicates well what it's about to do and makes it easy for the driver to recover from an oversteer situation. E36? Easy to spin, done it many times, luckily the latest E36 (the 98) I've been able to catch several times and that was on GAC Hoosiers. Maybe the E30 experience helped. ;-) >Seriously - a well driven E30 >M3 can be very competitive, but IMO a good driver in equally prepared cars >will have better lap times in an E36. I might be stepping out on a limb but >by and large most E30 M3 drivers you find at the track are better drivers >than their E36 brethren. They have to be. You'd find most E30 M3 guys would agree. :-) Seriously though watch an excellent driver in an E30 (engine swap or not) and you wouldn't consider the suspension antiquated. One person here Mr. Clay, drove an E30 M3 with a Yurro motor (E36) at O'fest and was seriously quick in it, I believe he won overall in whatever race he ran it in. Actually I don't know that but he did show up some of the fastest E36 mod cars in the country. -Carlos 98 M3
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#3. Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? - from Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:20:00 -0500 From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? >They weigh 300 lbs less. Ask me how I know. >The M-Coupe is a great example of a car that weighs in at E36-levels >but has the E30 rear suspension. It's, umm, not super-well regarded >at the limit. Oh no that comment again, I think you and Marco have been talking to the wrong people. :-) I've driven Ben's M Coupe and I did not find it any harder to drive at the limit than an E36 M3. Of course the question is who's limit? Mine is very far away from say Bill Auberlen's limit. All driver I say, not the suspension's fault. Carlos.
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#4. Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? - from Raza Uddin
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:41:30 -0800 From: Raza Uddin <raza.uddin@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? On 11/15/05, Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com <Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com> wrote: > > What? I'm not sure I agree with that. I do agree the E36 rear suspension > is superior but when > an E36 goes you best be quick about it or you're going to spin. > > E36? Easy to spin, done it many times, luckily the latest E36 (the 98) > I've > been able to catch several times and > that was on GAC Hoosiers. Maybe the E30 experience helped. ;-) Interestingly enough, I've had the total opposite experience between the E30 and E36. Just a few weeks ago, I was able to get the car in a lurid slide on gravel at a local autocross which required almost full opposite lock and still manage to maintain most of my speed and gather the car up. Maybe it is because I first learned to drive in anger with an E36, but the pitch angles it was exposed to with my novice skill and still being able to bring it back together is probably the reason I revere the E36 chassis so much. That, and the fact that as I've progressed as a driver, the car is even becomes even more rewarding to drive fast. Between my E36 325i and my M3/4, I think I've spun or not been able to catch a slide 2 or 3 times in multiple seasons of autocrossing and years of track days. But then again, I think it rather daft to base the ability of one driver to catch slides because it is very hard to know why the slide was caused and the corrective action taken. The E36, to me at least, felt much more communicative than the E30s I've driven and would prefer and E36 over any E30 just about 100% of the time. Drive Safely, Raza
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#5. RE: RX8 now Cayman S - from Alan Leung
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:44:16 -0600 From: "Alan Leung" <alanleung100@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: RX8 now Cayman S Very true, Jon. And I agree on all your points. The Cayman surely looks like a fun car to drive. My previous response came mostly from a track car perspective and of course that doesn't apply to all scenario. While the new Z06 seems to be a lot more refined than the C5 version it'll never catch up with Porsche in this department. >-------------------- 5 -------------------- >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:24:39 -0800 >From: Jon Phillips <jphillips@futurenetworkusa.com> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > >True enough, re., your Z06 vs Cayman S comparo. But I wasn't even >beginning to factor in price. In fact, I wasn't even looking at >horsepower or potential track times when I mentioned the Cayman. The >Cayman interests me because it's a mid-engined car with (apparently) >incredible chassis rigidity. Reportedly, it bears all of the Boxter's >best pure driving qualities, but also erases the Boxter's handling foibles. > >For me, it's more about fun factor and steering feel than track times... >I have heard that while Corvettes can be made to go blindingly fast, >they do so with a dead steering feel and feedback. The book on Boxsters, >meanwhile, is that they have great steering feel, weighting, feedback, >etc, but that they plow too much out of the box. I figure a well-tuned >Cayman -- or maybe even a stock Cayman -- should correct this. > >Anyhow, add in the "luxury" refinement and comfort of a $60K car, and >the Cayman becomes a very intriguing dual-purpose street/track car. >
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#6. RE: RX8 now Cayman S - from Alan Leung
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:48:13 -0600 From: "Alan Leung" <alanleung100@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: RX8 now Cayman S My comment was based on the track car thread and while I agree the Cayman is no sloth (flame suit on) but for pure preformance it's going to be hard to compare that to the 0-60 time of 4.2s of the Z06 which apparently can lap the 'Ring as fast as a GT3. >-------------------- 9 -------------------- >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:52:49 +0000 >From: docwyte@comcast.net >Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > >What math? With 295hp, the Cayman does 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds. That's >plenty fast. >
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#7. Re: [E36M3] RX8? - from marco
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:59:14 -0800 From: "marco" <m3driver@iname.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RX8? There's something wrong with the setup on those E36s if they're spinning that easily. An E36 that spins easily is a sign of worn rear trailing arm bushings or a totally screwed up alignment/ shock set up. Now we could start a whole thread on how one person's preferred set up results in a car undriveable for another person. I like a car set up to oversteer a bit, I could see how someone that doesn't could have problems with my car and spin the be-jeezus out of it. I'm had the majority of seat time in an E36 - so I'm pretty well attuned to the way they feel. E30's feel twitchy to me at the limit, but I've had maybe 1/20th the time in an E30. Hell my caddy feels less twitchy than an E30 ;-) BTW - anyone like James with lots of pro seat time should be able to out drive most of us in equal cars. At the last club race James Sofranas was running an E36 CM car that was amazingly fast. I'm sure with me in it it would have been down at least 50hp;-) Watching him take the line was instructional to say the least and probably made me faster in the three corners I was able to keep him in sight. So watching James or James in an E30 would mean nothing to me as to the baseline stability, I would expect those guys to be fast. Hell, years back I was at Thunderhill and Johannes Van Overbeck in a stock Ford Contour rental was damn difficult to keep up with. Now put a 16 year novice driver in both cars, E30 and E36, and then lets' see which one is less prone to spinning. Marco -----Original Message----- From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com [mailto:Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 1:17 PM To: m3driver@iname.com Cc: e36m3@bmw-m.net Subject: RE: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? Marco wrote: >It's not "bad", it's just old. A bit twitchier at the limit, an E36 is much >more forgiving. What? I'm not sure I agree with that. I do agree the E36 rear suspension is superior but when an E36 goes you best be quick about it or you're going to spin. An E30 is easy as pie to catch and I've driven different ones. E30 M3 that was mine for 5 years, never spun, E30 325is daily driver, plenty of sideways moments in it no spin, E30 332iS (the first Zionsville 3.2L car) sideways a bunch of times in it and again no spins. Not that I'm some sort of God's gift to driving, far from it actually but I think the suspension communicates well what it's about to do and makes it easy for the driver to recover from an oversteer situation. E36? Easy to spin, done it many times, luckily the latest E36 (the 98) I've been able to catch several times and that was on GAC Hoosiers. Maybe the E30 experience helped. ;-) >Seriously - a well driven E30 >M3 can be very competitive, but IMO a good driver in equally prepared cars >will have better lap times in an E36. I might be stepping out on a limb but >by and large most E30 M3 drivers you find at the track are better drivers >than their E36 brethren. They have to be. You'd find most E30 M3 guys would agree. :-) Seriously though watch an excellent driver in an E30 (engine swap or not) and you wouldn't consider the suspension antiquated. One person here Mr. Clay, drove an E30 M3 with a Yurro motor (E36) at O'fest and was seriously quick in it, I believe he won overall in whatever race he ran it in. Actually I don't know that but he did show up some of the fastest E36 mod cars in the country. -Carlos 98 M3
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#8. Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S - from Scott McClung
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:18:15 -0800 (PST) From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S Previous C5 Z06 ran 3.9sec 0-60, C&D clocked the new one at 3.3 I think. Alan Leung <alanleung100@hotmail.com> wrote:Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:48:13 -0600 From: "Alan Leung" Subject: RE: RX8 now Cayman S My comment was based on the track car thread and while I agree the Cayman is no sloth (flame suit on) but for pure preformance it's going to be hard to compare that to the 0-60 time of 4.2s of the Z06 which apparently can lap the 'Ring as fast as a GT3. >-------------------- 9 -------------------- >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:52:49 +0000 >From: docwyte@comcast.net >Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > >What math? With 295hp, the Cayman does 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds. That's >plenty fast. > ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#9. Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:18:22 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [e36m3] Re: [E36M3] RX8? On Nov 15, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com wrote: > You'd find most E30 M3 guys would agree. :-) Seriously though > watch an > excellent driver > in an E30 (engine swap or not) and you wouldn't consider the > suspension > antiquated. I've owned (and tracked extensively) an E36 M3, an E30 M3, and an E36 325is race car. The E36 M3 is faster. No question. - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar
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#10. Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S - from docwyte@comcast.net
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 00:32:51 +0000 From: docwyte@comcast.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S No doubt that the Z06 is the best bang for the buck. I'd rather have a Cayman tho. Seriously, do any of us really have the skills to wheel a Z06 around the track to its potential? I think a Cayman is probably more car than most of us can exploit... -------------- Original message -------------- > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:18:15 -0800 (PST) > From: Scott McClung > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > > Previous C5 Z06 ran 3.9sec 0-60, C&D clocked the new one at 3.3 I think. > > Alan Leung wrote:Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:48:13 > -0600 > From: "Alan Leung" > Subject: RE: RX8 now Cayman S > > My comment was based on the track car thread and while I agree the Cayman is > no sloth (flame suit on) but for pure preformance it's going to be hard to > compare that to the 0-60 time of 4.2s of the Z06 which apparently can lap > the 'Ring as fast as a GT3. > > >-------------------- 9 -------------------- > >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:52:49 +0000 > >From: docwyte@comcast.net > >Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: RX8 now Cayman S > > > >What math? With 295hp, the Cayman does 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds. That's > >plenty fast. > > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > >