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#1. Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Walter J
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 01:15:30 -0500 From: Walter J <m3gtr@adelphia.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix Scott McClung wrote: >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:28:00 -0800 (PST) >From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> >Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix > >Interesting story and analogy there Jon. I must say that a stock C5 Z06 is very much like the E36 M3 that you describe below that it completely sucks it's driver into over-confidence and then can snap with absolutely no warning when you push it 5% more. Been there, done that. Cost me couple tho..... > > > You guys are nutz... the E30, E30 M3, E36, E36 M3 and blah... blah... blah are some of the worlds easiest cars to drive ON the PLANET!. Somebody get me a '72 911 for comparison. Twitchy? Bwaahahahaha.
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Re: ABS/ASC Light - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:28:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: ABS/ASC Light On Tue, November 15, 2005 8:41 pm, Stan Shaw said: > Thanks, any way to verify the switch function, maybe with a jumper wire? I don't think so. A reading of the ABS fault code will verify it, though. Jim Bassett
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Scott M
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 00:36:47 -0800 From: Scott M <smlists@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix Uhh - that was actually my point as well. I was saying that a C5 Z06 was a lot tougher to drive fast than an E36 M3. As one example.. In fact, the E36 M3 is by far the easiest car to drive fast on a track of all the cars I've driven on a track, which include: 3rd gen Camaro 4th gen Corvette 5th gen Corvette incl Z06 E39 M5 I may be able to give some insight into how a CTS-V does next month.. Scott on 11/15/05 10:21 PM, Walter J at m3gtr@adelphia.net wrote: > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 01:15:30 -0500 > From: Walter J <m3gtr@adelphia.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix > > Scott McClung wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:28:00 -0800 (PST) >> From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> >> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix >> >> Interesting story and analogy there Jon. I must say that a stock C5 Z06 is >> very much like the E36 M3 that you describe below that it completely sucks >> it's driver into over-confidence and then can snap with absolutely no warning >> when you push it 5% more. Been there, done that. Cost me couple tho..... >> >> >> > You guys are nutz... the E30, E30 M3, E36, E36 M3 and blah... blah... > blah are some of the worlds easiest cars to drive ON the PLANET!. > > Somebody get me a '72 911 for comparison. Twitchy? Bwaahahahaha. > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > >
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:37:14 -0500 From: Jack - Elephant Motorsports <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix Ha! Classic, I love it! That's a great anaolgy Jon. I would agree a lot, especially with the bit about schools and instructing. Can't say I have much E36 time really (well, not stockish E36 time anyway) and my car is very twitchy. But then again it's set up more for another driver than for me and I've never had the chance to really tune it for myself. I've gotten used to it but it's still not set up right for me. Other E36's that I've driven have always had something done to them as far as non stock suspension, coil overs of some type. To me those set ups make the car feel more E30 like, that twitchiness but more predictability. My E30's have always been stockish, only stock style suspension upgrades really so as things tightened up they got twitchier but also more predictable and fun to drive. Jack Money Elephant Motorsports http://www.elephantmotorsports.com On 11/15/05, Jon@treehouseracing.com <jon@treehouseracing.com> wrote: > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:55:48 -0600 > From: "Jon@treehouseracing.com" <jon@treehouseracing.com> > Subject: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix > > Carlos et al - > > Yes an E30 with worn rear bushings will be extremely twitchy as the rear > tires will be pointing outward (positive toe) this is like unwanted 4 > wheel > steering. > But even a straight running E30 may be perceived as twitchy when you're an > E36 driver. > Ok, don't get all bent out of shape here people, this is merely my > OPINION: > > E36 Drivers are in the Matrix. All seems well and beautiful. Your world is > pretty and neat. Also seems like the norm. While driving, you think you're > eyes are open and you think you know what's going on. See, E36's lie to > their drivers and tell them what they want to hear: "yeah, go ahead, it'll > be fine" they say that and are right most of the time, but when pushed, > they > will tell you that everything is alright until it's wayyy too late, when > they simply whisper "oops". Meanwhile you're grabbing as much wheel and > brake as possible while the car spins off into all sorts of ugly places. > Afterward, most honest drivers will tell you they are not quite sure 100% > what specifically happened. > > E30 Drivers have taken the proverbial Red Pill. They are quite awake and > reminded of it frequently. It's not as pretty a place, a bit louder, a bit > dirtier. The E30 car sugar coats NOTHING. A careful, deliberate but modest > input has the car agreeing with you, but start pushing and it will say: "I > would'nt do that if I were you" A little more and the E30 starts to push > or > get loose and it let's you know it really doesn't appreciate your input. A > last second, abrupt turn of the wheel under gas and the car screams: "What > the hell are you thinking? Are you stupid!?" As you wickedly lose traction > and spin into oblivion. It's a harsher world, but at least it's real. > > More opinion and experience: > > I have instructed quite a few E36 drivers and I will say, "did you feel > that" just after the rear got light a little or started to slip. 9 times > out > of 10 they will say: "huh? no." > > Before you burn me at the stake, let me say that if an E36 is prepared to > the matched level of an E30, the e36 will beat it. Now, that is a FACT. > > Jon > ______________________________________________ > > Jon Siccardi - DM #052 > TreehouseRacing.com > M50conversion.com <http://M50conversion.com> > 615.333.9118 > ______________________________________________ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com> > To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:41 PM > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RX8? > > > > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:34:47 -0500 > > From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com > > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RX8? > > > >>Now we could start a whole thread on how one person's preferred set up > >>results in a car undriveable for another person. I like a car set up to > >>oversteer a bit, I could see how someone that doesn't could have > problems > >>with my car and spin the be-jeezus out of it. I'm had the majority of > > seat > >>time in an E36 - so I'm pretty well attuned to the way they feel. E30's > >>feel twitchy to me at the limit, but I've had maybe 1/20th the time in > an > >>E30. Hell my caddy feels less twitchy than an E30 ;-) > > > > I've never heard anyone describe an E30 as twitchy, as you said perhaps > > there was something wrong with the E30's suspension or alignment. :-P > > > > I described mine as more of a go-kart, semi-lightweight with incredible > > handling and I have never thought of the rear suspension as a drawback. > I > > like the E36 M3's handling as well but my one issue with it is all that > > weight, you can feel it *everywhere*. Oh well, perhaps the perfect car > > for > > me is one of those E30 frankenbimmers with an S50/52/yurro motor in it. > > Someday perhaps. :-) > > > > Carlos. > > 98 M3 > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > ************************************************* > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >
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#5. Re: [E36M3] Re: ABS/ASC Light - from Stan Shaw
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:49:19 -0500 From: "Stan Shaw" <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: ABS/ASC Light Ok, thanks. Now to find an independent with a code reader :) Regards, Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net Phone: (413) 599-0399 Fax: (413) 599-0421 Excell.Net Owner/Operator http://www.Excell.Net/ 928 Owners Club President http://www.928OC.org/ 928Racing.net Team Member http://www.928Racing.net/ "Liberty once lost is lost forever." - John Adams
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#6. Re: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Shane Kleinpeter
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:52:58 -0800 (PST) From: Shane Kleinpeter <sak335@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix >I have instructed quite a few E36 drivers and I will say, "did >you feel that" just after the rear got light a little or started >to slip. 9 times out of 10 they will say: "huh? no." That's not a fault I would only attribute to E36 drivers. Most students have no idea what the car is doing until they have a great deal of experience under their belt. The E30 is more communicative by simple virtue of fact that it has an antiquated rear suspension that cannot keep the rear connected to the road as well as the E36 can. BMW wouldn't have given up the trunk space if that wasn't the case. But yes, the E30 M3 was the most successful touring car ever, so it's not so bad that many inexperienced drivers would notice. >Before you burn me at the stake, let me say that if an E36 is >prepared to the matched level of an E30, the e36 will beat it. >Now, that is a FACT. Agreed. And since I'm adding very little to this dicussion I'll simply say this to anybody that is still listening (reading): You can't go wrong with either E30 or E36 as a track car. You can find a place to race either one and the rules are set so that you can be successful given the proper preparation of both car and driver. Each car has it's strong points and it's weak points but neither has anything that can't be addressed fairly easily. I race an E36 but have co-driven E30's in races and driven many at DE events. I can't understand why anybody would purchase an E30 over an E36 given how cheap you can pick up an E36 these days (see www.bimmerworld.com for a shining example that just won a 13 hour event at VIR - with <ahem> your's truly co-driving), but everybody has their allegiences. Either car will be fun in either a competitive or non-competitive environment, but given the same driver in the equally prepared cars, the E36 will be faster. Shane K. '96 M3 '94 325 #76 ITS/JP __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com
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#7. Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Tripp Racioppi
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 06:21:46 -0800 (PST) From: Tripp Racioppi <r3_m3@yahoo.com> Subject: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix jon, i hate to tell you how clairvoiant you are! i took my e36 M3 to Summit Point in OCT. it was a beautiful week end with NASA! it was my first time at Summit Point, i usually run at VIR. anyway, i've been driving my M3 in driving schools for the last couple of years and my wife and i had discussed my buying a track car. my concern was that it is inevidable that the car is going to get scratched at some point in time. and i wanted a car with a roll cage as i get up into the higher speed classes. so i bought an '86 e30 325. this week end was to be the last week end for the M3 on the track. the last track session (you know what they say about the "last run"?). coming into turn 9...the car felt great!....i was accelerating when the rear end wanted to come up front and see what was going on......then i did what we were told not to....i tried to correct...............round we went into the tire wall!!! i get the car back this week...and start building the 325......where is my t-shirt? r3 ************************************************************************************************* Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:55:48 -0600 From: "Jon@treehouseracing.com" <jon@treehouseracing.com> Subject: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix Carlos et al - Yes an E30 with worn rear bushings will be extremely twitchy as the rear tires will be pointing outward (positive toe) this is like unwanted 4 wheel steering. But even a straight running E30 may be perceived as twitchy when you're an E36 driver. Ok, don't get all bent out of shape here people, this is merely my OPINION: E36 Drivers are in the Matrix. All seems well and beautiful. Your world is pretty and neat. Also seems like the norm. While driving, you think you're eyes are open and you think you know what's going on. See, E36's lie to their drivers and tell them what they want to hear: "yeah, go ahead, it'll be fine" they say that and are right most of the time, but when pushed, they will tell you that everything is alright until it's wayyy too late, when they simply whisper "oops". Meanwhile you're grabbing as much wheel and brake as possible while the car spins off into all sorts of ugly places. Afterward, most honest drivers will tell you they are not quite sure 100% what specifically happened. E30 Drivers have taken the proverbial Red Pill. They are quite awake and reminded of it frequently. It's not as pretty a place, a bit louder, a bit dirtier. The E30 car sugar coats NOTHING. A careful, deliberate but modest input has the car agreeing with you, but start pushing and it will say: "I would'nt do that if I were you" A little more and the E30 starts to push or get loose and it let's you know it really doesn't appreciate your input. A last second, abrupt turn of the wheel under gas and the car screams: "What the hell are you thinking? Are you stupid!?" As you wickedly lose traction and spin into oblivion. It's a harsher world, but at least it's real. More opinion and experience: I have instructed quite a few E36 drivers and I will say, "did you feel that" just after the rear got light a little or started to slip. 9 times out of 10 they will say: "huh? no." Before you burn me at the stake, let me say that if an E36 is prepared to the matched level of an E30, the e36 will beat it. Now, that is a FACT. Jon --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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#8. Re: [E36M3] Re: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:51:34 -0500 From: Jack - Elephant Motorsports <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix I think one of the funnest things about driving an E30 at the track these days (especially in schools but still pretty prolific in CCA races) is that even though the E36 cars are definitely faster, I typically find the E30 drivers to be much better and thus faster. I would imagine this is regional and we know it's changing more and more. Here in the midwest (maybe more northern midwest) typical schools still see tons of E36 (and now E46) M3's getting continually spanked by even E30 325's. Always fun to watch, always fun to participate in. Our chapter's school at Grattan in Oct always draws tons of nifty P car guys....who get spanked by same E30's. ; ) It's definitely the crowd. Shane, congrats on your win, VERY cool! I'm really interested in running a race like that. I'm keeping my eyes open for a chance to run at least a 6 hour race next year. Of course if I end up providing the car I will definitely run an E36 325. As you say, why buy and E30 when you can a decent E36 for nearly the same? Cheers. Jack Money Elephant Motorsports http://www.elephantmotorsports.com On 11/16/05, Shane Kleinpeter <sak335@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 05:52:58 -0800 (PST) > From: Shane Kleinpeter <sak335@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix > > >I have instructed quite a few E36 drivers and I will > say, "did >you feel that" just after the rear got > light a little or started >to slip. 9 times out of 10 > they will say: "huh? no." > > That's not a fault I would only attribute to E36 > drivers. Most students have no idea what the car is > doing until they have a great deal of experience under > their belt. The E30 is more communicative by simple > virtue of fact that it has an antiquated rear > suspension that cannot keep the rear connected to the > road as well as the E36 can. BMW wouldn't have given > up the trunk space if that wasn't the case. But yes, > the E30 M3 was the most successful touring car ever, > so it's not so bad that many inexperienced drivers > would notice. > > >Before you burn me at the stake, let me say that if > an E36 is >prepared to the matched level of an E30, > the e36 will beat it. >Now, that is a FACT. > > > Agreed. And since I'm adding very little to this > dicussion I'll simply say this to anybody that is > still listening (reading): You can't go wrong with > either E30 or E36 as a track car. You can find a > place to race either one and the rules are set so that > you can be successful given the proper preparation of > both car and driver. Each car has it's strong points > and it's weak points but neither has anything that > can't be addressed fairly easily. I race an E36 but > have co-driven E30's in races and driven many at DE > events. I can't understand why anybody would > purchase an E30 over an E36 given how cheap you can > pick up an E36 these days (see www.bimmerworld.com<http://www.bimmerworld..com>for > a shining example that just won a 13 hour event at VIR > - with <ahem> your's truly co-driving), but everybody > has their allegiences. Either car will be fun in > either a competitive or non-competitive environment, > but given the same driver in the equally prepared > cars, the E36 will be faster. > > Shane K. > '96 M3 > '94 325 #76 ITS/JP
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#9. RE: Window Rubber Seal Lubricant - from John Firestone
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:23:11 +0100 (CET) From: John Firestone <johnf@freenet.de> Subject: RE: Window Rubber Seal Lubricant On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Don Eilenberger wrote: > The "official BMW" lubricant was Gummiphlege - which was a silicone > grease in a tube with a nice foam applicator on the end of it. > > Apparently the company that made this went belly up and BMW no > longer supplies it.... I believe BMW still sells the stuff in Germany, in a spray can with updated graphics. I bought some from my dealer a few months ago. -John '96 318is
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix - from Kent L. Shephard
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:26:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Kent L. Shephard" <kents@kls-consulting.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Twitchy E30 and the Matrix Hi, Interesting. I had an E30 M3 with a pretty good suspension upgrade. I now have an E36 M3 with a pretty decent suspension upgrade. Both cars were running +1 tire sizes and width a little bit more than stock. My E36 does not feel as sure as my E30. Maybe it's me. My E30 drove like it was on rails around corners. The E36 does not feel quite as sure footed. It might be the additional weight. I don't know. The E30 just felt better. It's completely subjective on my part. Kent > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:55:48 -0600 > From: "Jon@treehouseracing.com" <jon@treehouseracing.com> > Subject: Twitchy E30 and the Matrix > > Carlos et al - > > Yes an E30 with worn rear bushings will be extremely twitchy as the rear > tires will be pointing outward (positive toe) this is like unwanted 4 > wheel > steering. > But even a straight running E30 may be perceived as twitchy when you're an > E36 driver. > Ok, don't get all bent out of shape here people, this is merely my > OPINION: > > E36 Drivers are in the Matrix. All seems well and beautiful. Your world is > pretty and neat. Also seems like the norm. While driving, you think you're > eyes are open and you think you know what's going on. See, E36's lie to > their drivers and tell them what they want to hear: "yeah, go ahead, it'll > be fine" they say that and are right most of the time, but when pushed, > they > will tell you that everything is alright until it's wayyy too late, when > they simply whisper "oops". Meanwhile you're grabbing as much wheel and > brake as possible while the car spins off into all sorts of ugly places. > Afterward, most honest drivers will tell you they are not quite sure 100% > what specifically happened. > > E30 Drivers have taken the proverbial Red Pill. They are quite awake and > reminded of it frequently. It's not as pretty a place, a bit louder, a bit > dirtier. The E30 car sugar coats NOTHING. A careful, deliberate but modest > input has the car agreeing with you, but start pushing and it will say: "I > would'nt do that if I were you" A little more and the E30 starts to push > or > get loose and it let's you know it really doesn't appreciate your input. A > last second, abrupt turn of the wheel under gas and the car screams: "What > the hell are you thinking? Are you stupid!?" As you wickedly lose traction > and spin into oblivion. It's a harsher world, but at least it's real. > > More opinion and experience: > > I have instructed quite a few E36 drivers and I will say, "did you feel > that" just after the rear got light a little or started to slip. 9 times > out > of 10 they will say: "huh? no." > > Before you burn me at the stake, let me say that if an E36 is prepared to > the matched level of an E30, the e36 will beat it. Now, that is a FACT. > > Jon > ______________________________________________ > > Jon Siccardi - DM #052 > TreehouseRacing.com > M50conversion.com > 615.333.9118 > ______________________________________________ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com> > To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 7:41 PM > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RX8? > > >> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:34:47 -0500 >> From: Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com >> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RX8? >> >>>Now we could start a whole thread on how one person's preferred set up >>>results in a car undriveable for another person. I like a car set up to >>>oversteer a bit, I could see how someone that doesn't could have >>> problems >>>with my car and spin the be-jeezus out of it. I'm had the majority of >> seat >>>time in an E36 - so I'm pretty well attuned to the way they feel. E30's >>>feel twitchy to me at the limit, but I've had maybe 1/20th the time in >>> an >>>E30. Hell my caddy feels less twitchy than an E30 ;-) >> >> I've never heard anyone describe an E30 as twitchy, as you said perhaps >> there was something wrong with the E30's suspension or alignment. :-P >> >> I described mine as more of a go-kart, semi-lightweight with incredible >> handling and I have never thought of the rear suspension as a drawback. >> I >> like the E36 M3's handling as well but my one issue with it is all that >> weight, you can feel it *everywhere*. Oh well, perhaps the perfect car >> for >> me is one of those E30 frankenbimmers with an S50/52/yurro motor in it. >> Someday perhaps. :-) >> >> Carlos. >> 98 M3 >> >> >> >> ************************************************* >> Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: >> >> Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >> Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >> Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >> Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >> Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >> Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com >> >> DIGEST INFORMATION: >> http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >> ************************************************* >> >> > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >