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#1. Clutch R&R - Summary and Results - from Neil Maller
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:47:25 -0500 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Clutch R&R - Summary and Results The main parts I installed were the UUC Stage 2 lightweight flywheel, Sachs standard sprung hub E39 M5 clutch and Sachs heavy duty E39 M5 pressure plate (thanks to Chester for telling me about this last part). Along with that were a new Sachs release bearing and tube, stock release arm, 850Csi stainless steel release arm pivot ball (stock E36 is plastic) and fresh shift linkage pieces and parts. Also a new rear main seal, just because. No new seals on the transmission. The UUC flywheel weighs only 8.5 lbs compared to 22.7 lbs for the stock 3.2L sprung hub part. However the M5 sprung hub clutch is heavier than the plain M3 disk, and the Sachs HD pressure plate is probably heavier too. The 3-piece stackups (without bolts) weigh 36.5 lbs for stock vs. 25.5 lbs for the replacement parts. (That doesn't tell the full story, since here it's not just weight that counts here, but rotational moment of inertia. That's a function of mass times the square of its distance from the axis of rotation.) It's known that the E39 M5 clutch parts in the M3 result in an unnaturally light pedal effort. This can be remedied by substituting an E36 325i slave cylinder, which has a smaller piston diameter. UUC recommends this. I had planned to do that while removing the infamous clutch delay valve, but found that my car didn't have a CDV. According to the ETK it should have, but it doesn't. It's the Bastard Child! The new HD Sachs pressure plate actually restores some of the lost pedal effort, so I decided not to install the 325i slave cylinder, at least not for now. (Besides, if I did I just knew I'd have brake fluid dripping into my hair, and I'm a middle aged guy who doesn't need to put his follicles at any unnecessary risk!) The test drive showed pedal effort to be lighter than stock M3, about like a normal E36 325i. Engagement point was normal and the action progressive, totally stock-style but noticeably better than a stock M3. To my surprise there was zero transmission rattle at idle. However the Eurosport cam kit on my car raises the idle speed by around 100 rpm, which definitely would help. With the outside temperature at 30 degrees today I wasn't able to try it with the A/C on. Upshifts were smoother and quicker because engine revs drop faster with the lightweight flywheel, almost eliminating the need to pause between gears. Throttle blips for double-clutch downshifts are now super quick. This is nice! And the end result is surprisingly refined. All in all a satisfying advanced level DIY job - which I hope I never have to do again! Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 77 MGB - Original owner, need to sell 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD!
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#2. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Kent L. Shephard
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:49:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Kent L. Shephard" <kents@kls-consulting.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? Hi, If my past is any indication, it will be until I can no longer justify the expense of another expensive hobby and/or until it is no longer relaible and it will take tons of money to make it that way. So what's that? Another 10 years or so???? Kent > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:47:39 -0500 > From: "Stan Shaw" <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> > Subject: How long will you keep your E36 M3? > > Just curious, with the recent talk about E30s and E36s. How long do you > expect to keep your E36 M3? > > I have had my '96 M3 for 7.5 years, and intend to keep it FOREVER.
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#3. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Zack Steinkamp
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:57:33 -0800 (PST) From: Zack Steinkamp <thenobot@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? Negative 5 months and counting... ;-) I loved my E36. Great noises, great feel. But it was starting to wear, and my wife suggested I look at new cars. Ended up getting an E46. Here's a nice picture of it: http://www.thenobot.org/pictures/20050820-thunderhill/?17 It's a very nice car. Luxurious, safe, and modern. I think Nav and Bluetooth are nice things to have in a car. Does me just fine at the 2 DE's I've taken it to. Ground Control coilovers and a good alignment have done wonders for the car's handling. It understeers pretty heavily from the factory, now it's lively and fun like my E36 was. The speed is very deceptive, since it's not as loud as the E36 with Eurosport/JimC intake was, so I give it lots of attention on the street and track (especially the track). It's a better GT car than any previous 3-series. Though if I wanted a track-only car, I'd get an E36 at this point. Dollars wise, I owned the E36 M3 for three years and sold it for $5K less than what I bought it for. Very economical! I don't expect the new car to be economical at all though.... ;-) -zs ps -- can any instructors back up the claims that novice E46 students are somehow more dangerous than other students? The only "offs" I've seen have been with A/B group students. ----- Original Message ---- From: Stan Shaw <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Fri Nov 18 13:51:52 2005 Subject: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:47:39 -0500 From: "Stan Shaw" <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> Subject: How long will you keep your E36 M3? Just curious, with the recent talk about E30s and E36s. How long do you expect to keep your E36 M3? I have had my '96 M3 for 7.5 years, and intend to keep it FOREVER. Regards, Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net Phone: (413) 599-0399 Fax: (413) 599-0421 Excell.Net Owner/Operator http://www.Excell.Net/ 928 Owners Club President http://www.928OC.org/ 928Racing.net Team Member http://www.928Racing.net/ "Liberty once lost is lost forever." - John Adams ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#4. Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing - from Scott McClung
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:32:35 -0800 (PST) From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing Dave - you were smart to leave it on. FWIW, I left it on when I took your car out for a session, also to ensure you would get to drive a shiny car home that day :-) But I was driving it reasonbly quickly because it just handled so nicely, and about the only place I saw it come on hard was T11-12, and maybe just a tich over the hill T5 and going thru T9 flat out and T14 into the main straight. Only place I could feel it interfere with what i was doing was T11-12 which is the tightest corner on the track. And let me tell you, the car was marvelous through that section compared to a vette!! Scott debuhr@comcast.net wrote: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:19:37 +0000 From: debuhr@comcast.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing FWIW, from a student's perspective, I left DSC on for my one and only track day at Thill. Dry track. I felt DSC engage all the time. I always turn it off on the street (I'm a baaaaaad boy :)) and it was very obvious to me when it was engaging. If I turned it off, I'm fairly confident that I would have been fine, but you never know. It was a long drive home and my goal was to kep my shiny car shiny and learn about the line and get used to brakong points an stuff. The fact that DSC was engaging frequently tells me that I was overdriving with regard to my knowledge of the line and track experience. If anything, DSC taught me an important lesson and allowed me to keep my nice M3 in one piece. That might have been the most important lesson of the day. I know I might have felt and learned more with it off. However, I feel I made good improvements throughout the day, kept my car, myself, and most importantly to me, my instructor in one piece. Having said that, I'm glad I used it. After one or two more events, when I feel like I'm ready, and the instructor approves, I'll turn it off and learn some more. > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:02:13 -0800 (PST) > From: Jason Knight > Subject: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing > > I think Gerry may be referring to beginners that don't > know how to put a car on the track, have gobs of power > under their right foot, are used to thinking they're > fast because they tailgate on the freeway, and think > that they're Schuey (or Alonso or Jr. or whomever). I > left DSC on for my first few track days, despite the > jabs from my friends that had been tracking their cars > for a few years. After about three track events I was > going through a long right hand sweeper and noticed > that I was being limited and promptly turned it off. > Until they at least know the line, having a governor > ain't a bad thing. > > Jason > > --- Roy Kao wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:37:00 -0500 > > From: Roy Kao > > Subject: Re: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and the > > Matrix > > > > Gerry, > > > > Really? With the DSC on? Are you being facetious > > or serious? > > > > The DSC, IMHO, will only serve to further mask the > > behaviour of the > > car on the track and give the student a stronger > > sense of > > invincibility as the car will save him/her 100% of > > the time. In a > > downpour (as we've experienced at Mosport or > > Tremblant before) is a > > different story, but in dry conditions, the DSC > > won't really let the > > student learn anything, again IMHO. > > > > -- > > Roy - '99 M3 Estoril Blue > > > > On 11/17/05, Gerry Low > > wrote: > > > Roy, > > > The DSC should be left on. > > > Gerry > > > > > > Roy Kao said: > > > So here's a question: how do we as instructors > > adapt to these ever faster cars to better instruct > > students of all levels to make sure that both we and > > the students get to go home in one piece after a > > school? > > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#5. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Mark Dadgar
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:41:06 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? On Nov 18, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Zack Steinkamp wrote: > ps -- can any instructors back up the claims that novice E46 > students are somehow more dangerous than other students? The only > "offs" I've seen have been with A/B group students. It's generally not the Ds and As that are the problems. It's the high-Cs/low-Bs. They have the speed but not the awareness or the car control. More experience tends to fix that. - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar
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#6. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from docwyte@comcast.net
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:41:49 +0000 From: docwyte@comcast.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? Kept mine about 2.5 years, put close to 50k miles on it in that time. I would've kept it if it was a sedan, needed at least a 4 door to make it easier to get the baby seat in and out. Wasn't economical to buy a sedan and swap over all the parts and I wanted all wheel drive now that I live in Colorado, so I sold it and bought an S4 Avant. -------------- Original message -------------- > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:47:39 -0500 > From: "Stan Shaw" > Subject: How long will you keep your E36 M3? > > Just curious, with the recent talk about E30s and E36s. How long do you > expect to keep your E36 M3? > > I have had my '96 M3 for 7.5 years, and intend to keep it FOREVER. > > Regards, > Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net >
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#7. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from twisty M3
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:47:53 -0800 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? << Ended up getting an E46. Here's a nice picture of it: http://www.thenobot.org/pictures/20050820-thunderhill/?17 >> Great pics!!! I'm just a little dissappointed that there are no pics of the beastly Nissan Sentra 1.8*S* I had that weekend. Good times! << ps -- can any instructors back up the claims that novice E46 students are somehow more dangerous than other students? The only "offs" I've seen have been with A/B group students. >> I think it's a combination of what sort of attitude they show up with along with the type of hardware. I've seen several offs and crumples in C and D this year too, and most have been E46M3s. Jonathan L.
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#8. RE: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Steve Sharp
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:43:22 -0800 From: "Steve Sharp" <steve.sharp@xilinx.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? I've had my '97 E36 M3/2 since late 1999. Got it with 30K miles on it and just turned 60K. I was thinking of an E46M3, but with 2 kids now, I'd really rather have a 4-door. Financially, I can't shell out major $$ for a couple of years, so maybe I'll consider a 4-door E90M3 then (once the initial rush and dealer premiums subside). Or maybe a used E39 M5? Who knows what the best value will be in 2-3 years? Anyway, I figure the E36M3 is such a great combination of decent power, great handing, space for 2 kids in back (with room to spare) and a real trunk that for the money, I couldn't beat it right now. I figure my M3 is good for at least another 4 year and 30-40K miles without major issues. -Steve Los Gatos, CA
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#9. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Scott McClung
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:51:30 -0800 (PST) From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? What I always recommend is a year or two of autox to learn car control before taking up track work. Many people don't want to wait. But it really worked well for me - by the time I got to the track I had several seasons of autox under my belt and car control came very naturally to me. Sure, the speeds are higher in RR, but the elements of car control are the same. And you tend to drive 10/10's to 11/10's in autox, so you are exploring the limits of the car a lot more, and you spin a lot more - if you are never spinning in autox, you are not going fast enough!! I remember going through the timing lights backwards one time in my FS Camaro. Didn't take them out, and still ended up with a good time that run, well - maybe hit a few live cones after the lights, I forget. But the cheering crowd made it worth it :-) :-) Scott Mark Dadgar <mark@pdc-racing.net> wrote: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:41:06 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? On Nov 18, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Zack Steinkamp wrote: > ps -- can any instructors back up the claims that novice E46 > students are somehow more dangerous than other students? The only > "offs" I've seen have been with A/B group students. It's generally not the Ds and As that are the problems. It's the high-Cs/low-Bs. They have the speed but not the awareness or the car control. More experience tends to fix that. - Mark ----- mark@pdc-racing.net Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#10. Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing - from Scott McClung
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:53:47 -0800 (PST) From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing Pedal felt fine to me, Dave. It takes more travel to get into the "working" zone than in your vette, so the feel is very different. But I think that is normal for these cars. Stainless lines may help some. Scott debuhr@comcast.net wrote: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 18:29:33 +0000 From: debuhr@comcast.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing My brakes held up fine with the exception of a soft pedal that I can't correct. Hawk HPS pads, ATE fluid. The rear pads were still fine at the end of the day. > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:21:26 -0800 > From: Mark Dadgar > Subject: Re: [E36M3] E36M3 Twitchy E30 and Instructing > > On Nov 18, 2005, at 10:11 AM, Carlos.F.Lopez@jci.com wrote: > >> Did you have any rear brake pad left at the end? :) > > > > If Dave is referring to an E36 M3 it does not apply the brakes at high > > speeds. I think > > I discussed this with Neil M. recently and he said below 30-35mph > > (I forget > > the exact figure) is > > when it applies the brakes. > > Interesting. Some friends of mine took their new Cooper S to the GGC > School at Thunderhill in August and they were on the backing plates > in back by the end of the weekend. > > - Mark > ----- > mark@pdc-racing.net > > Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: > http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#11. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Scott McClung
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:57:20 -0800 (PST) From: Scott McClung <smlists@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? I kept mine for 2.5 years as well. Sold it for something bigger and more useable for hauling 4 adults for my business use - E39 M5. Then got a hair up my butt for a sports car so had a Z06 for a year. Now I'm back in a more suitable replacement for the E39 M5 - a CTS-V. Which I have a 3-year lease on, so in theory it will be around at least that long.... Scott docwyte@comcast.net wrote: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:41:49 +0000 From: docwyte@comcast.net Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? Kept mine about 2.5 years, put close to 50k miles on it in that time. I would've kept it if it was a sedan, needed at least a 4 door to make it easier to get the baby seat in and out. Wasn't economical to buy a sedan and swap over all the parts and I wanted all wheel drive now that I live in Colorado, so I sold it and bought an S4 Avant. -------------- Original message -------------- > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:47:39 -0500 > From: "Stan Shaw" > Subject: How long will you keep your E36 M3? > > Just curious, with the recent talk about E30s and E36s. How long do you > expect to keep your E36 M3? > > I have had my '96 M3 for 7.5 years, and intend to keep it FOREVER. > > Regards, > Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net > ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#12. Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? - from Jamie Howton
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Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:59:29 -0600 From: Jamie Howton <jhowton@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] How long will you keep your E36 M3? > Just curious, with the recent talk about E30s and E36s. How long do you > expect to keep your E36 M3? For the forseeable future is my best answer, if I win the lottery I might go S62 powered E46 track car. Mine is pretty much a track car now with full Ground Control spherical bushings it's a pretty stiff ride. I am finishing the interior removal this winter and installing a cage and race seats so that will pretty much finish it off. Man, it's good on the track I did 22 DE days this year. OT, but do you still have your 928? -- Jamie Howton 2000 M5 1995 M3 Hampshire, IL