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#1. RE: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement - from Alexander Fadeev
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:03:16 -0500 From: "Alexander Fadeev" <afadeev@smu.edu> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement Paul L Fisher [mailto:bmw@paul-fisher.com] wrote: > > Cold air intake and the software and the bigger injectors > need airflow to give more HP. Among other things, yes. > Sitting on a dyno will show no increase. In my humble experience, that's not true. I've run back-to-back dyno test on 3 intakes and 2 chips in 90+ degree TX weather and observed differences beyond the dynamometer's margin of error on most of them (drop-in K&N was statistically indistinguishable from a stock paper filter with both stock and JimC chips). A big electric fan in front of an open hood is a must during dyno testing. The bigger the better. Without it, the engine will both get hot and struggle for air => run lean => knock sensors will do their job and retard the ignition timing. You will be able to see the above process play out on the jagged and suddenly declining torque curve. YMMV, alex f
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#2. Re: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant?- from Chris Papademetrious
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:46:34 -0700 From: "Chris Papademetrious" <chrispitude@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> Hi Scott, My 95 has been doing this for about four years now. I keep thinking it's going to manifest itself one cold winter day as coolant pouring through the floor vent onto my feet, but it never seems to get worse than a faint whiff. I've seen posts throughout the years of others observing the same thing. Beyond that, I'm afraid I can't be more help. My car has about 170k miles on the clock, for what it's worth. - Chris
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement - from docwyte@comcast.net
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 03:01:32 +0000 From: docwyte@comcast.net Subject: RE: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement Sure, it's a generalization, but it's also based on what I've personally seen and experienced over the last 10 years of dynoing cars... -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Alexander Fadeev" <afadeev@smu.edu> > docwyte@comcast.net [mailto:docwyte@comcast.net] wrote: > > > > Dyno's aren't consistent, not even the same one. You can get > > readings all over the board from day to day, dyno to dyno... > > That sounds like a sweeping generality... > Lets try to be more specific. > > Most dynamometers I've seen, heard of, or ran on have a margin of errors > between 0.3-10.0%. A huge difference, to say the least. > A significant part of the error is introduced by relying on the tires to > transmit the torque from the engine to the measuring device. Dynamometers that > mount directly to the wheel hubs would be expected to produce tests with a > smaller margin of error. > > For example: > Dynapack 3000 Series : +/- 0.3% http://www.ultimategarage.com/dynapack.html > Dynojet 248C : +/- 3.0% (quote from the operator of a TX facility) > > Interestingly, neither Dynojet (www.dynojet.com) nor Mustang > (www.mustangdyne.com) disclose their products' error margins or calibrating > requirements on their web sites. > > > Other contributors to the random dynamometer output variability are the > environmental and engine adoption factors. Most of the people have heard of > the former. If you run back-to-back on the same wheels/tires and in front of a > decent air-cooling fan, you can expect comparables output #'s relative to each > other. > DME adoption, on the other hand, is a huge head-ache. I remember a talk Steve > Dinan gave to the LSC member where he basically admitted that the only way to > get honestly comparable dyno output #'s was to re-boot the DME before each > run. However, that would not yield the true maximum output either as DME > adoption would typically > Here is a link to an article that discusses these issues: > http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=8020 > > > alex f > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: "Lawrence Barbieri" > > > > > Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:31:15 -0500 > > > From: "Lawrence Barbieri" > > > Subject: Lack of performance improvement > > > > > > I have a 95 M3. Back in Nov. I had it put on a Dyno, at that time I > > > had done no performance upgrades. The results showed peak HP in the > > > range > > > 212-216 (on one pull it actually hit 220) and peak torque > > at 202-203 ft-lbs. > > > > > > Over the winter I installed a Conforti cold air intake, > > Euro HFM, 24lb > > > fuel injectors and a chip to match all of that (chip came > > from Turner, > > > but I believe it is still the Conforti chip). This is > > Bimmerworld's Stage II kit. > > > > > > Car was back at the Dyno today. Over 4 pulls on the Dyno the car > > > showed very little increase in HP. It was consistently in > > the 216-218 > > > range (and never hit 220 again!) and the torque curve was slightly > > > higher across the lower rpm band, maybe 5-7 ft-lbs. (I > > don't have all > > > the data yet to give actual values here). > > > > > > I have to say, I was pretty disappointed after spending $1200 on > > > perfomance upgrades to see that small of an improvement. > > > > > > I expected something more like a 20HP boost, but would have > > been happy > > > even if it was only 10HP or so. > > > > > > Has anyone else had this experience? Is there something I > > should check? > > > Any ideas on why the improvements were so marginal? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Larry > > > -- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.1/292 - Release Date: > > > 3/24/2006 > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport > > > http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance > > > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing > > > http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. > > > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > > ************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > ************************************************* > > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport > > High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse > > Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports > > Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > > ************************************************* > > > > > >
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant?- from Jim Bassett
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:08:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> On Sun, March 26, 2006 1:01 pm, S Stiles said: > <vent> > Bought the M3 about 6mos ago, and have been playing catch-up w/this > 85k-mile 1-owner car. Replaced rad, thermostat, hoses, suspension, rsm, > rtab and a bunch of other stuff. On the to-do list is control arms, front > wheel bearings, brakes, etc. Will it ever get to the point where I've > replaced everything and it drives like a "like new" car for a year? Or, > should I just dump it and buy a new GTI? :) > </vent> Well, if none of those items were addressed by the previous owner, it's time they should be. They are pretty much "known" maintenence items. Sounds like you got "stuck" with a car the owner decided to get rid of before doing all that work. Bummer. Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 - 166K+ miles, BTDT, several times over 1933 325is #44 JP
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#5. Fire Extinguisher Mount - from Stan Shaw
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:23:12 -0500 From: "Stan Shaw" <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> Subject: Fire Extinguisher Mount Just found out a DE (3/30 at LRP) has added the requirement for a fire extinguisher. I need a mount for my '96 M3 with stock seats in my hands in the next couple of days. The requirement says hose clamps are not allowed. I would appreciate knowing if anyone has one for sale, or can provide a URL to a good option. Thanks! Regards, Stan Shaw Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net Phone: (413) 599-0399 Fax: (413) 599-0421 Excell.Net Owner/Operator http://www.Excell.Net/ 928 Owners Club President http://www.928OC.org/ 928Racing.net Team Member http://www.928Racing.net/ "Liberty once lost is lost forever." - John Adams
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#6. RE: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant?- from Scott
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:23:46 -0800 From: "Scott" <stiles_s@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> >>>Sounds like you got "stuck" with a car the owner decided to get rid of before doing all that work. >>>Bummer. I think that's right. On the plus side the body is in great shape and mechanically it appears sound. And, it wasn't "beat on". Unfortunately looks like I need to do the entire 75k mile "checklist". I just need to convince myself it'll run another 75k miles before this stuff expires again :) It's good to see others (like you) with double the mileage and still going strong. Thanks, Scott. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Bassett [mailto:jim@jimbassett.com] Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:12 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:08:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> On Sun, March 26, 2006 1:01 pm, S Stiles said: > <vent> > Bought the M3 about 6mos ago, and have been playing catch-up w/this > 85k-mile 1-owner car. Replaced rad, thermostat, hoses, suspension, > rsm, rtab and a bunch of other stuff. On the to-do list is control > arms, front wheel bearings, brakes, etc. Will it ever get to the point > where I've replaced everything and it drives like a "like new" car for > a year? Or, should I just dump it and buy a new GTI? :) </vent> Well, if none of those items were addressed by the previous owner, it's time they should be. They are pretty much "known" maintenence items. Sounds like you got "stuck" with a car the owner decided to get rid of before doing all that work. Bummer. Jim Bassett 1998 M3/4 - 166K+ miles, BTDT, several times over 1933 325is #44 JP ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#7. Re: [E36M3] Fire Extinguisher Mount - from Chester Wong
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:47:08 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Fire Extinguisher Mount http://www.bkauto.com/bmw/index.php They have two versions: one for cars with power seats and one for cars without. Good luck! Chester --- Stan Shaw <Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net> wrote: > Just found out a DE (3/30 at LRP) has added the requirement for a fire > extinguisher. I need a mount for my '96 M3 with stock seats in my hands in > the next couple of days. The requirement says hose clamps are not allowed. > I would appreciate knowing if anyone has one for sale, or can provide a URL > to a good option.
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#8. RE: Am I smelling coolant?- from tom eby
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Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:41:08 -0800 From: "tom eby" <thomaseby@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> Hi Scott, I replaced my heater core about 4 months ago and it wasn't too bad! In fact, dare I say I would even do it again!? Before you blow apart your car's dash, first make sure that the Heater Core is the *true* culprit and not the hoses in the engine compartment or some other evil, sneaky water leak-path. The Heater Core/AC box has a drain tube that dumps to the outside of the vehicle. The tube is directly above the transmission brace /shift linkage. If you crawl under the car probe around with a finger, you'l probably find the tube's end orfice (ick?). With any luck, there'll not be residual water there or on the surrouding transmission brace. Do you ever notice water under your car after leaving a parking spot? What about fogging windshield with muck? Check out the archives for other symptoms. Here's a few quick blurbs about my experience + tools required over at bimmerforums: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6212591#post6212591 -tom eby -- >Subject: Am I smelling coolant? <sigh> > >Issue first, then a quick vent. > >Seems like I'm getting an occasional whiff of sweet coolant smell in my '97 >M3 after the heat kicks on. I don't see any leakage on the carpet, and no >"low coolant" messages (I think the coolant is holding pretty steady). Any >ideas? On my old cars, this would mean "heater core", and "now go tear >apart the dash and the car will never be the same again". Same w/the M3?
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement - from Jon@treehouseracing.com
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:38:46 -0600 From: "Jon@treehouseracing.com" <jon@treehouseracing.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement Lawerence- I guess it's obvious that we dyno our cars to measure them as we do not know what power they make. But in a case like this, it really helps to know a range of where you should probably be. You did not mention your cars' configuration other than it was a 95 M3. Well, your first warning flag should have been the first dyno results. If your car was stock, it would have made 190 - 200 RWHP on a dynojet. This is a very firm range as hundreds of people have gotten these exact results on Dynojets with a stock setup. Numbers like this also support roughly a 20% drivetrain loss . 240 Stock Engine HP / 1.20 = 200RWHP So if you made a 220RWHP pull, you were roughly measuring 220RWHP X 1.20 = 264 Engine HP. Bro, That's strong. So, after your mods of HFM, CAI, INJ, SW etc..you pulled a 218ish. This is about right at 262ish engine HP. This is exactly what I see in the shop for 95 3.0l cars with this kit. They all gain around 20-25 HP. You're right there Lawerence. All that said, I can't tell you what went wrong with your 1st dyno run, but if the car was basically stock, the 220 you pulled was surely incorrect. And assuming that's all true, you spent $1200 and gained 20+/- HP. That's pretty good, and also a necessary starting point to gain max power from future engine breathing mods. I think you did just right. Jon ______________________________________________ Jon Siccardi - DM #052 TreehouseRacing.com M50conversion.com 615.333.9118 ______________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Barbieri" <larry@logicalconclusions.com> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:31 AM Subject: [E36M3] Lack of performance improvement > Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 02:31:15 -0500 > From: "Lawrence Barbieri" <larry@logicalconclusions.com> > Subject: Lack of performance improvement > > I have a 95 M3. Back in Nov. I had it put on a Dyno, at that time I had > done no performance upgrades. The results showed peak HP in the range > 212-216 (on one pull it actually hit 220) and peak torque at 202-203 > ft-lbs. > > Over the winter I installed a Conforti cold air intake, Euro HFM, 24lb > fuel > injectors and a chip to match all of that (chip came from Turner, but I > believe it is still the Conforti chip). This is Bimmerworld's Stage II > kit. > > Car was back at the Dyno today. Over 4 pulls on the Dyno the car showed > very little increase in HP. It was consistently in the 216-218 range (and > never hit 220 again!) and the torque curve was slightly higher across the > lower rpm band, maybe 5-7 ft-lbs. (I don't have all the data yet to give > actual values here). > > I have to say, I was pretty disappointed after spending $1200 on > perfomance > upgrades to see that small of an improvement. > > I expected something more like a 20HP boost, but would have been happy > even > if it was only 10HP or so. > > Has anyone else had this experience? Is there something I should check? > Any ideas on why the improvements were so marginal? > > Thanks, > Larry > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.1/292 - Release Date: 3/24/2006 > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > >
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#10. Re: - from Tripp Racioppi
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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:56:22 -0800 (PST) From: Tripp Racioppi <r3_m3@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Tom, I bought my M3 from a kid in Richmond and went to Bavarian Motors, 2220 W. Cary St., (804) 342-7448. The owner, Mike Stevenson, did my pre-purchase check and I found him to be very thorough. Since I do most of the work on my car myself, I found that all of the issues he reported were correct and I found nothing that he had overlooked. He charged me the standard (I guess) price of $19.95 for the inspection. Good luck, r3 97 M3, Silver/Black 86 325, Red/Biege E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> wrote: Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 15:28:40 -0500 From: tetice@triad.rr.com Subject: Help looking at an M3 in Richmond, Va I have a friend looking for an M3/4 and has located one in the Richmond, Va. area (we are in NC). Is there anyone on the list that could assist in checking out this car? And/or anyone that could recommend a shop/technician in the area that could thoroughly check it out? TIA, Tom Tice '98 M3/4 '93 325iS '02 X5 '02 325iT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.