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#1. Re: [E36M3] Its been a while - from Jamie Howton
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 15:24:33 -0600 From: "Jamie Howton" <jhowton@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Its been a while > I used to drive 2000+ miles PER MONTH a few years back. Now, with the > shorter commute & no track time in the M3, only about 1000 miles/month. That's where I'm at now, 2,500 miles per month, 30,000 per year through Chicago traffic. At least I like my cars... -- Jamie Howton 2000 M5 1995 M3 Hampshire, IL
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#2. RE: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway - from Mike Frank
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:35:27 -0500 From: "Mike Frank" <mfrank28@insightbb.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway Ahmad, IIRC, when the UUC bars first came out they were targeted at "curing" the stock M3's tendency to understeer, hence the slightly larger rear bar relative to other manufacturers like RD Sport @ 22mm (which I have). If I were you I'd try a stock bar. IIRC, I think they're 19/20mm for '95/'96+ M3's. Or you could try a 22mm RD Sport bar. If my math is correct the 24mm is roughly twice as stiff as a 20mm, and about 50% stiffer than a 22mm. Either should make a noticeable difference. How did you come up with your camber settings, rear in particular? I know this is somewhat track specific, but for me, -2.2 degrees in the rear was a little too much. Have you tried running a little less? There are a lot of people on this list like Seth who spend much more time on the track than me, so I'd listen to them as well. Those are just the things that came to mind. HTH, Mike Frank 97 M3 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ahmad Lutfeali [mailto:m3_racer99@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:01 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway > > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:58:58 -0500 > From: "Ahmad Lutfeali" <m3_racer99@hotmail.com> > Subject: To Sway or Not to Sway > > Gruppe, > > I have worked out most of the bugs (almost) in my to be raced soon I Stock > M3. However, the rear swaybar issue is currently on my mind and I would > like > to get some feedback/opinion. > > Current setup: > > 700lbs front springs with matched shortened/revalved Turner Bilstiens. > 800lbs rear springs " " " " > (Part of the I Stock suspension turner sells). > Front bar 26mm UUC currently set on full soft. > Front camber -3.5 with 0 toe > Rear camber -2.2 with 1/16" toe in. > > With the 24mm rear bar set to full soft, the car was extremely twitchy. > Corner entry was relatively okay but right at apex the rear end was > stepping > out. I had James Clay drive out the car at Sebring to confirm its not just > my lack of experience driving this thing. We then disconnected the rear > bar. > Car was a lot more fun. > > However, testing it out at DE @ Road Atlanta (at present my home track). > The > car definitely pushes (slightly) and the rear end is quite planted. The > rear > end seems to roll a lot (lean) whereas the front end is stiff. Before I > toy > around too much: > > Three Questions: > > 1) Feedback on rear bar removal (based on your experience) and if my > current > spring setup is okay to handle it (is there a threshold or front rear bais > where the bar disconnect should come in?) > > 2) Due to the camber angle (E36) the front bar set to full stiff > eliminates > understeers (holds true unless you run stiffer springs). Would this hold > true with the high springs I am running? > > 3) I would like to try different bars and was wondering what is the > smallest > rear bar I can throw in this car (I have heard that the 318 E36 rear bar > is > only 18mm) comments/suggestions? > > Lutfy > #75 IS > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > *************************************************
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#3. RE: [E36M3] Installing RTAB Shims? - from Mike Frank
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 17:54:43 -0500 From: "Mike Frank" <mfrank28@insightbb.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] Installing RTAB Shims? Jonathan, Yes, if you don't have to remove a stock bushing it's pretty easy. No special fasteners that I remember. I don't think you could do this on ramps with the suspension loaded, never tried though. I think it's a lot easier (possibly necessary) if you disconnect the rear shock & rear swaybar, maybe even the rear control arm - it's been a couple of years. :) I'd mark the location of the RTAB mount on the underside of the car so that you can put it back in the same location. Probably should still get an alignment afterwards though. HTH, Mike Frank 97 M3 > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:10:48 -0800 > From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> > Subject: Installing RTAB Shims? > > I recently made the move to TC Kline's delrin bushings for the front > control > arms and rear trailing arms. The rears came with shims, which apparently > weren't made of stainless steel and have been the cause (I believe) of a > lot > of whacky noise lately. > > They've just recently sent out replacement stainless steel washers/shims > and > since the bushing doesn't have to be removed, I'd rather not pay someone > to > do it. Is it a fairly easy job getting in there to just replace the > shims? > Any special-sized fasteners I should be aware of? Also, could this be > done > with the car on ramps so the suspension is loaded, or is it best to have > the > suspension at full droop? > > Thanks, > Jonathan L.
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#4. Re: [E36M3] Installing RTAB Shims? - from Robert Brooks
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:24:02 -0700 From: Robert Brooks <m3rb@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Installing RTAB Shims? I spraypainted the bolt heads, reassembled so they matched, did not get an alignment, and all was well. One thing you want to avoid is to bolt the arm to the carrier such that there is twist preload on the bushing when the car is in its normal stationary position. It should be possible to achieve this by marking, as well, but I didn't. It can also be done with a special tool, but what I did was get the bolt just snug, install the carrier (no need to fully torque it), lower the car, then take it back out, tighten the arm-to-carrier bolt, then the final reattach of the carrier. I don't recall detaching the swaybar or shock, but maybe I did. I think I used a jack to put upward pressure on the shock. That might allow you to do it with the suspension loaded, but I doubt it. Be careful to not overstretch the brake line which is fastened to the arm. Some refs say to detach it, but I did not find that necessary. Robert Brooks >Jonathan, > >Yes, if you don't have to remove a stock bushing it's pretty easy. No >special fasteners that I remember. I don't think you could do this on ramps >with the suspension loaded, never tried though. I think it's a lot easier >(possibly necessary) if you disconnect the rear shock & rear swaybar, maybe >even the rear control arm - it's been a couple of years. :) > >I'd mark the location of the RTAB mount on the underside of the car so that >you can put it back in the same location. Probably should still get an >alignment afterwards though. > >HTH, > >Mike Frank >97 M3 > > > > >>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:10:48 -0800 >>From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> >>Subject: Installing RTAB Shims? >> >>I recently made the move to TC Kline's delrin bushings for the front >>control >>arms and rear trailing arms. The rears came with shims, which apparently >>weren't made of stainless steel and have been the cause (I believe) of a >>lot >>of whacky noise lately. >> >>They've just recently sent out replacement stainless steel washers/shims >>and >>since the bushing doesn't have to be removed, I'd rather not pay someone >>to >>do it. Is it a fairly easy job getting in there to just replace the >>shims? >>Any special-sized fasteners I should be aware of? Also, could this be >>done >>with the car on ramps so the suspension is loaded, or is it best to have >>the >>suspension at full droop? >> >>Thanks, >>Jonathan L. >> >> > > > > >************************************************* >Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > >Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com >Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com >Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com >Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com >Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com >Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > >DIGEST INFORMATION: >http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm >************************************************* > > > > > >
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#5. Installing RTAB Shims? - from Mo Karamat
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 00:32:45 -0500 From: Mo Karamat <karamatm@optonline.net> Subject: Installing RTAB Shims? Jonathan, Hello. I just did the RTABs on the race car last night. There are 3 bolts that hold the housing to the body. Once those are off, there is just a long bolt/nut that holds the housing to the control arm. Take the housing off, put the shims in, and re-fit the housing over the control arm & bushing, and bolt it back up. What you should do is take a marker and draw a line around the housing so that you can tighten it up at the same place when you re-install. The problem is that the placement of the housing effects the rear alignment settings. If you do not put it exactly back, the car will probably need to be re-aligned. If the rear of the car is on jackstands, you will be fine. If you are doing it by yourself, it does help to have another jack to raise the arm are you re-insert the housing to the car body.. Good luck Mo 98 M3/4 - Retired track car. 95 M3 - IP car in progress. 91 325IX -------------------- 1 -------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:10:48 -0800 From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> Subject: Installing RTAB Shims? I recently made the move to TC Kline's delrin bushings for the front control arms and rear trailing arms. The rears came with shims, which apparently weren't made of stainless steel and have been the cause (I believe) of a lot of whacky noise lately. They've just recently sent out replacement stainless steel washers/shims and since the bushing doesn't have to be removed, I'd rather not pay someone to do it. Is it a fairly easy job getting in there to just replace the shims? Any special-sized fasteners I should be aware of? Also, could this be done with the car on ramps so the suspension is loaded, or is it best to have the suspension at full droop? Thanks, Jonathan L.
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#6. E36 Work - from Mark D.
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 01:37:44 -0500 From: "Mark D." <mdlkml@atari-source.com> Subject: E36 Work Hey guys, Did the RSMs and control arm bushings today. Wow, what a total pita to get those new bushings in (though the air chisel melted the old ones out like a hot knife on butter). The RSMs were unbelievably easy - don't let it wait if you need it done because there's no reason. If your car feels squirmy at high speeds cornering on gentle turns (like on a highway), or pulls on braking, definitely check this out. She tracks perfect now and went from scary back to completely reassured. I also did the thermostat. I was absolutely as careful as I could be but the neck snapped right off the radiator. If you have a ~96 M3 with 150,000+ miles BEWARE - it's coming. About half the neck snapped and I reattached the hose and I made it home. The engine cooling fan is one royal pain too, especially whne you don't have the fan wrenches. Thanks, Mark
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#7. RE: Installing RTAB Shims? - from Lawrence Barbieri
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:02:51 -0500 From: "Lawrence Barbieri" <larry@logicalconclusions.com> Subject: RE: Installing RTAB Shims? Jonathan, This should be a simple DIY job. I don't think you'll be able to do this on ramps because I doubt the trailing arm will drop enough unless the suspension is in full droop. So, jack stands will be the better bet. Be sure to remove the bracket holding the brake line to the trailing arm (2 10mm bolts, spray with penetrating oil ahead of time to make this a simple job). Mark the position of the bracket (console, BMW terminlogy) on the body of the car. I used a Sharpie pen for this. Then remove the 3 bolts holding the bracket to the body of the car. If you have air tools this will go real fast. Drop the the trailing arm. Remove the bolt through the center of the bushing and remove the bracket. Now you'll be able to install your new shims. Reinstall and tighten the center bolt to 81 ft-lb and try to keep the bracket at the same angle that it was when you took it off. It doesn't have to be perfect just close so you don't have to twist it too much when you put it back up into the body of the car. Now, replace the 3 bolts that hold the bracket to the body. Tighten them to 54 ft-lb. Get the bracket back to the positon you marked before you took it off. Reinstall the brake line bracket. Done! You're alignment should be very close to what it was. If you want to be safe take it to the shop and have them adjust the rear toe in. Larry > -------------------- 1 -------------------- > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:10:48 -0800 > From: "twisty M3" <twistym3@hotmail.com> > Subject: Installing RTAB Shims? > > I recently made the move to TC Kline's delrin bushings for the > front control > arms and rear trailing arms. The rears came with shims, which apparently > weren't made of stainless steel and have been the cause (I > believe) of a lot > of whacky noise lately. > > They've just recently sent out replacement stainless steel > washers/shims and > since the bushing doesn't have to be removed, I'd rather not pay > someone to > do it. Is it a fairly easy job getting in there to just replace > the shims? > Any special-sized fasteners I should be aware of? Also, could > this be done > with the car on ramps so the suspension is loaded, or is it best > to have the > suspension at full droop? > > Thanks, > Jonathan L. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.3/296 - Release Date: 3/29/2006
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#8. Traction control - from Gary Nakasato
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:26:49 -0500 From: "Gary Nakasato" <gnakasato@hotmail.com> Subject: Traction control <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE> <P>Yesterday I changed from winter tires (Bridgestone Blizzak LM25 225/45/17 all around), to summer tires (Michelin PS2). They are used 225/45/17 at the front and brand new, <STRONG>235</STRONG>/40/17. I decided to start trying to get a square set up so I got the 235's for the rear instead of the 245's de car originally had.</P> <P>Problem is, now, I just started to have Traction control problems. It gets activated under hard acceleration in 4th or 5th gear, at around 85-90 mph. It also happened this morning at around 55mph, full throttle acceleration in 5th gear (trying to merge on the highway). I could not feel any wheelspin. The ASC light would come on, blink repeatedly, and the car would SLOWLY but steadily accelerate. Pressing the ASC button would get the car going fast without any wheelspin that I could tell. Passing cars was a pain, so I had to turn ASC completely. </P> <P>I checked tire pressures and they were all OK (36psi cold). I initially thought the rear tires needed some breaking-in and that the ASC was saving me from major wheelspin; but with the ASC off, I don't feel the rear tires spinning at all. Could it be the difference in tire diameter? Would that 8mm-drop in overall diameter in the rear only, cause the sensors to kick in prematurely? I've used the 235/40/17's all around before without problems (track tires) but never 225/45/17 F and 235/40/17 R. I wonder if the sensors are detecting a significant speed difference between the front and the rear wheels. Any ideas?<BR><BR><BR>Gary Nakasato</P></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></div></html>
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#9. RE: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway - from Ahmad Lutfeali
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Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:46:41 -0400 From: "Ahmad Lutfeali" <m3_racer99@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway Mike, I agree with you on the UUC bars being an aggressive street setup. The 24mm bar in the rear (at full soft) with my 800lbs springs were frightening. I couldn't get the darn thing to stick and was driving this ill handling car for a while. I am going to Strictly German tomorrow and getting myself the stock M3 96+ 20mm bar (just recently found out that the 95s had 19mm, 325/328 sport package had 18mm and the regular 325s had the 15mm bar). Regarding camber at the back, I was told that the starting point (not a rule of thumb) should be to have about a degree less camber at the back. That said, the maximum camber allowed up front being -3.5 I went all out for it (most I Stock guys ran that setting) and then I maxed out at the back at around -2.2, I may get a bit more out of it when I lower it a bit (my rake is off). I believe the factory max camber (rear) is -1.9 and with pyrometer reading, the temperature across the range seemed within range (about 5-10 degrees more on the outside). If you think -2.2 is much, wait till you see some of "them IP boys" out there. I have seen as much as -4.5 up front with almost -3 at the back. Ahmad -----Original Message----- From: Mike Frank [mailto:mfrank28@insightbb.com] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 5:35 PM To: 'E36M3' Cc: 'Ahmad Lutfeali' Subject: RE: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway Ahmad, IIRC, when the UUC bars first came out they were targeted at "curing" the stock M3's tendency to understeer, hence the slightly larger rear bar relative to other manufacturers like RD Sport @ 22mm (which I have). If I were you I'd try a stock bar. IIRC, I think they're 19/20mm for '95/'96+ M3's. Or you could try a 22mm RD Sport bar. If my math is correct the 24mm is roughly twice as stiff as a 20mm, and about 50% stiffer than a 22mm. Either should make a noticeable difference. How did you come up with your camber settings, rear in particular? I know this is somewhat track specific, but for me, -2.2 degrees in the rear was a little too much. Have you tried running a little less? There are a lot of people on this list like Seth who spend much more time on the track than me, so I'd listen to them as well. Those are just the things that came to mind. HTH, Mike Frank 97 M3 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ahmad Lutfeali [mailto:m3_racer99@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:01 PM > To: E36M3 > Subject: [E36M3] To Sway or Not to Sway > > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:58:58 -0500 > From: "Ahmad Lutfeali" <m3_racer99@hotmail.com> > Subject: To Sway or Not to Sway > > Gruppe, > > I have worked out most of the bugs (almost) in my to be raced soon I > Stock M3. However, the rear swaybar issue is currently on my mind and > I would like to get some feedback/opinion. > > Current setup: > > 700lbs front springs with matched shortened/revalved Turner Bilstiens. > 800lbs rear springs " " " " > (Part of the I Stock suspension turner sells). > Front bar 26mm UUC currently set on full soft. > Front camber -3.5 with 0 toe > Rear camber -2.2 with 1/16" toe in. > > With the 24mm rear bar set to full soft, the car was extremely twitchy. > Corner entry was relatively okay but right at apex the rear end was > stepping out. I had James Clay drive out the car at Sebring to confirm > its not just my lack of experience driving this thing. We then > disconnected the rear bar. > Car was a lot more fun. > > However, testing it out at DE @ Road Atlanta (at present my home track). > The > car definitely pushes (slightly) and the rear end is quite planted. > The rear end seems to roll a lot (lean) whereas the front end is > stiff. Before I toy around too much: > > Three Questions: > > 1) Feedback on rear bar removal (based on your experience) and if my > current spring setup is okay to handle it (is there a threshold or > front rear bais where the bar disconnect should come in?) > > 2) Due to the camber angle (E36) the front bar set to full stiff > eliminates understeers (holds true unless you run stiffer springs). > Would this hold true with the high springs I am running? > > 3) I would like to try different bars and was wondering what is the > smallest rear bar I can throw in this car (I have heard that the 318 > E36 rear bar is only 18mm) comments/suggestions? > > Lutfy > #75 IS > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport > http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing > http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > *************************************************
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#10. Re: [E36M3] Traction control - from Reid Conti
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Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:50:12 -0800 From: "Reid Conti" <reid@conti.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Traction control > Yesterday I changed from winter tires (Bridgestone Blizzak LM25 225/45/17 > all around), to summer tires (Michelin PS2). They are used 225/45/17 at the > front and brand new, 235/40/17. I decided to start trying to get a square > set up so I got the 235's for the rear instead of the 245's de car > originally had. > > Problem is, now, I just started to have Traction control problems. It gets > activated under hard acceleration in 4th or 5th gear, at around 85-90 mph.. > It also happened this morning at around 55mph, full throttle acceleration in > 5th gear (trying to merge on the highway). I could not feel any wheelspin.. > The ASC light would come on, blink repeatedly, and the car would SLOWLY but > steadily accelerate. Pressing the ASC button would get the car going fast > without any wheelspin that I could tell. Passing cars was a pain, so I had > to turn ASC completely. > > I checked tire pressures and they were all OK (36psi cold). I initially > thought the rear tires needed some breaking-in and that the ASC was saving > me from major wheelspin; but with the ASC off, I don't feel the rear tires > spinning at all. Could it be the difference in tire diameter? Would that > 8mm-drop in overall diameter in the rear only, cause the sensors to kick in > prematurely? I've used the 235/40/17's all around before without problems > (track tires) but never 225/45/17 F and 235/40/17 R. I wonder if the sensors > are detecting a significant speed difference between the front and the rear > wheels. Any ideas? I'm almost certain you're experiencing what you suspect you are. Solution: leave ASC off! My M Coupe came with 225/45/17's up front and 245/40/17's in the rear, which means the fronts were 3.25mm bigger in radius than the rears. I'm stepping up to 235/45 265/40, so right now I have almost-new 235/45 up front and almost bald 245/40's in the rear. Difference means the fronts are 7.75mm bigger in radius. Usually I don't have much of a problem, although my ASC is over-eager on corners. However, on a roadtrip once, I started noticing coming up an onramp in third, the asc was doing exactly what you're saying yours is doing. It would do the same in 4th and 5th on the highway.. I left it off for a few minutes (this was back in December) and I haven't had the same problem reoccur since, although I frequently drive with ASC off anyway. Your tires right now have a 7.25mm radius difference, so its a bit less than mine was, but I imagine ASC systems are slightly different. For now I'd say ignore it and drive with ASC off until you get the proper-sized tires up front. - reid