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#1. RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:19:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) You're kidding, right? It's even been said by Jay Morris that our cars change toe when the suspension is compressed. I would imagine that even had he pulled on something else other than the sway bar (e.g. pushed down on the front bumper) that the toe would change under compression. The tie rods are shorter than the control arms and it is not parallel with the control arms at rest. Chester --- "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> wrote: > I cannot imagine how anyone "hung off the front sway bar" but in doing > so one would impart a vertical load on the bar that is passed to the end > link. The end link is attached to the strut housing via a tab on the > strut casing spaced off the strut center line of rotation by a couple of > inches. The vertical load applied to the bar translated into a > rotational moment of the strut casing causing what appeared as toe > (suspension compression induced toe change) but was actually steering of > strut housing - that was not a demonstration of 'bump steer' where the > arc of the tie rod follows a different arc path than that described by > the spindle-tie-rod-attach point causing the tie rod to push or pull the > spindle - effectively steering the car as the strut compresses and > rebounds under the weight of the vehicle.
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#2. Re: clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube - from Neil Maller
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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:36:50 -0400 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube on 6/9/06 3:54 PM, <mfraiser@earthlink.net> wrote: > My new clutch, etc are being installed now and i have a question. > > Do you lube the splines (where the clutch rides) with the little packet > of 'spline lube' included in the Sachs clutch kit or something similar > (i.e. lube vs. dry)? I've never looked it up, but I've been told that the TIS either doesn't say to lube it, or else says not to do so. However everyone I know with any clutch experience thinks that's insane and says to lube the snot out of it - or should that be to lube the snot into it? - if you want it to last. Obviously you don't want so much grease that it might get flung off and somehow find its way to the friction plate. When I did mine last fall I lubed the splines where the release bearing moves, as well as all the contact points of the release arm, using Mobil 1 Synthetic Grease. You do need to use a nice, thick temperature resistant grease. Neil 96 M3
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#3. Re: [E36M3] clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:41:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube The BMW TIS outlines using a small amount of grease (the size of a kernal of corn) to be carefully placed. You don't want to use too much since it will splatter from the centripetal force and get all over the clutch disc/pressure plate/flywheel interface. Chester --- marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> wrote: > My new clutch, etc are being installed now and i have a question. > > Do you lube the splines (where the clutch rides) with the little packet > of 'spline lube' included in the Sachs clutch kit or something similar > (i.e. lube vs. dry)? > It seems one would but the mechanic says he never does. I had asked him > to lightly lube the spines since presumably that's why the spline lube > is included plus I thought I'd seen mention of some sort of issue where > someone had to go back in and lube it. > > I want to make sure I haven't asked him to do something where he knew > better to start with (it can easily happen). > > thanks, > marty > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > >
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#4. RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) - from Burgess, Kim L
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:41:33 -0700 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) I can't budge-bounce the front end of my Koni shocked stock sprung 'M'. Who is Jay Morris? The spindle attach point compensates for what appears to be a short tie rod - also look at the relationship of the tie rod pivot at the rack attach and the control arm pivot point at the subframe - the geometry is very similar relative to the roll center. If there is toe change it is minimal - to the point of being insignificant (especially compared to my 'in the weeds' 78 Chebby 1/2 Pick'emup.) KLBurgess - I guess your findings are different -----Original Message----- From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:19 PM To: Burgess, Kim L; E36M3 Cc: chester_p_wong@yahoo.com Subject: RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) You're kidding, right? It's even been said by Jay Morris that our cars change toe when the suspension is compressed. I would imagine that even had he pulled on something else other than the sway bar (e.g. pushed down on the front bumper) that the toe would change under compression. The tie rods are shorter than the control arms and it is not parallel with the control arms at rest. Chester --- "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> wrote: > I cannot imagine how anyone "hung off the front sway bar" but in doing > so one would impart a vertical load on the bar that is passed to the > end link. The end link is attached to the strut housing via a tab on > the strut casing spaced off the strut center line of rotation by a > couple of inches. The vertical load applied to the bar translated into > a rotational moment of the strut casing causing what appeared as toe > (suspension compression induced toe change) but was actually steering > of strut housing - that was not a demonstration of 'bump steer' where > the arc of the tie rod follows a different arc path than that > described by the spindle-tie-rod-attach point causing the tie rod to > push or pull the spindle - effectively steering the car as the strut > compresses and rebounds under the weight of the vehicle.
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#5. Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) - from cteague@cox.net
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:46:41 -0400 From: <cteague@cox.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) Chester, I thought Jay said the E36 didn't have bumpsteer at stock ride height, but only at the extremes of travel? I could have remembered wrong though. I figure most cars have some, it's just a matter of how much. Chris ---- Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:19:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> > Subject: RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) > > You're kidding, right? It's even been said by Jay Morris that our cars change > toe when the suspension is compressed. I would imagine that even had he pulled > on something else other than the sway bar (e.g. pushed down on the front > bumper) that the toe would change under compression. The tie rods are shorter > than the control arms and it is not parallel with the control arms at rest. > > Chester
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#6. Re: [E36M3] Re: clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube - from Chester Wong
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Chester Wong <chester_p_wong@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube They say not to lube the pilot bearing inner surface area (where it rides on the collar that surrounds the input shaft. Chester --- Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> wrote: > I've never looked it up, but I've been told that the TIS either doesn't say > to lube it, or else says not to do so.
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#7. Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) - from Jim Bassett
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) On Fri, June 9, 2006 1:45 pm, Burgess, Kim L said: > Who is Jay Morris? Just "some guy" who runs a suspension system supplier. Perhaps you've heard of it....Ground Control? :-) Jim Bassett - drinking heavily from the "sarcasm fountain" today (yes, moreso than usual! :-))
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#8. RE: [e36m3] [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) - from Marco
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:58:36 -0700 From: "Marco" <m3driver@iname.com> Subject: RE: [e36m3] [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) Jay Morris is Mr. Ground Control. He knows his "sh^t". Now are you guys arguing the difference between static and dynamic toe changes? Just curious since I seem to missing the first part of the thread. Marco -----Original Message----- From: Burgess, Kim L [mailto:kim.l.burgess@boeing.com] Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:45 PM To: E36M3 Subject: [e36m3] [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:41:33 -0700 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) I can't budge-bounce the front end of my Koni shocked stock sprung 'M'. Who is Jay Morris? The spindle attach point compensates for what appears to be a short tie rod - also look at the relationship of the tie rod pivot at the rack attach and the control arm pivot point at the subframe - the geometry is very similar relative to the roll center. If there is toe change it is minimal - to the point of being insignificant (especially compared to my 'in the weeds' 78 Chebby 1/2 Pick'emup.) KLBurgess - I guess your findings are different -----Original Message----- From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:19 PM To: Burgess, Kim L; E36M3 Cc: chester_p_wong@yahoo.com Subject: RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) You're kidding, right? It's even been said by Jay Morris that our cars change toe when the suspension is compressed. I would imagine that even had he pulled on something else other than the sway bar (e.g. pushed down on the front bumper) that the toe would change under compression. The tie rods are shorter than the control arms and it is not parallel with the control arms at rest. Chester --- "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> wrote: > I cannot imagine how anyone "hung off the front sway bar" but in doing > so one would impart a vertical load on the bar that is passed to the > end link. The end link is attached to the strut housing via a tab on > the strut casing spaced off the strut center line of rotation by a > couple of inches. The vertical load applied to the bar translated into > a rotational moment of the strut casing causing what appeared as toe > (suspension compression induced toe change) but was actually steering > of strut housing - that was not a demonstration of 'bump steer' where > the arc of the tie rod follows a different arc path than that > described by the spindle-tie-rod-attach point causing the tie rod to > push or pull the spindle - effectively steering the car as the strut > compresses and rebounds under the weight of the vehicle. ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#9. Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) - from Scott Spangenberg
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Spangenberg <cpmustang2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers (again) Sheesh! I wrote a novel on bump steer and promptly lost it when I hit "Send" :-( The issue with a strut suspension (especially) is that the spindle moves in a complex path described by two arcs: the swing arc of the LCA, and the arc the strut swings thru (it's a "linkage"). The tie rod's path is a simple arc with the center at the inner tie rod end. If the outer tie rod centerline were exactly even with the lower balljoint centerline it wouldn't matter, but it's not. Consequently, over the full range of suspension travel the two paths will diverge ... they HAVE to. The best you can hope for is that there is minimal bump steer in the "important" part of the suspension travel, but there will be some bump steer somewhere. If anybody cares to hear my DIY bumpsteer measurement setup, I will re-type the novel :-/ -Scott Spangenberg --- Jim Bassett <jim@jimbassett.com> wrote: > Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Jim Bassett" <jim@jimbassett.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: bump steer....was Coilovers > (again) > > On Fri, June 9, 2006 1:45 pm, Burgess, Kim L said: > > Who is Jay Morris? > > Just "some guy" who runs a suspension system > supplier. > > Perhaps you've heard of it....Ground Control? > > :-) > > Jim Bassett - drinking heavily from the "sarcasm > fountain" today (yes, > moreso than usual! :-)) > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our > sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance > http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. > http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
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#10. Re: [E36M3] clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube - from marty
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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 19:32:15 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] clutch shaft splines - to lube or not lube thanks guys, It sure looks like a place that could use a bit of grease. I'm with Walter - metal repeatedly sliding to and fro on metal with no lube doesn't seem like the best thing. My mechanic says he doesn't lube 'cause it could fly off and get on the friction surfaces. I'm guessing the appropriate amount and type of grease will stay put. I called BimmerWorld (where i purchased the parts) tech support - the guy told me they don't lube splines but he had to ask someone else ... I figure they should know so I'm a bit confused while still convinced lubrication is good. So, a little smearing of the spline grease on the splines is what mine will get. Chester brings up another point. No grease on the outside of the guide tube where inside of release bearing moves? The inside surface of the release bearing is plastic i believe so it must have some slipperiness by virtue of the material difference? Is it bad if there is some lube there? Asking because there is lube there and wondering if it needs to be removed. thanks again, marty