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#1. Re: [E36M3] New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Walter Jordan
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Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:35:01 -0400 From: Walter Jordan <m3gtr@adelphia.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 12:06 -0500, Ben Liaw wrote: > Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:58:53 -0400 From: Ben Liaw Subject: Re: > [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit ALL of the Stoptech and Brembo > kits use the entire swept area of the rotor. In high performance > braking, that's sort of the point. Since the pad area dictates the requirement of the caliper design - as long as the caliper was up to the task in the first place - the additional unused sweep area is not hurting anything except maybe by a marginal additional rotating mass. It is probable that Wilwood's own rotor would match its caliper exactly but cost more than $70ea and not be available on Sunday from NAPA when you crack one. Since the goal of the kit appears to be aimed at bang-for-the buck the lower entry cost via use of a factory rotor seems like a reasonable compromise and the race pads for the caliper are less than 50% what the cost of the factory BMW race pad fitment would be with better performance and less overall weight. P.S. Anybody looking for a "details" guy to work on their car - contact Bill Townsend. He is very meticulous :) -- Walter
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#2. RE: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Paul L Fisher
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:38:13 -0500 From: "Paul L Fisher" <bmw@paul-fisher.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Maybe I have a terminology problem but 100% swept area? Are you saying that the pad touches 100% of the rotor? If so, I've never seen that. Paul L Fisher 2000 M Roadster E36/7 S52 Cosmos Black Metallic 1989 325ix E30 M20 Cinnabar Red Become a BMW CCA Member! Elkhorn, WI. -----Original Message----- From: Ben Liaw [mailto:ben@rogueengineering.com] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:07 PM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:58:53 -0400 From: Ben Liaw Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit ALL of the Stoptech and Brembo kits use the entire swept area of the rotor. In high performance braking, that's sort of the point. Regards, Ben Liaw Rogue Engineering 201.444.8150 • www.rebmw.com On Mon Oct 2 10:16 , "William Townsend" sent: Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:08:11 -0400 From: "William Townsend" <HYPERLINK "javascript:top.opencompose('wtownsend@juniper.net','','','')"wtownsend@juniper.net> Subject: RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Yea, we all stood around looking at that and wondered if the StopTech kit was the same. No one around had one. Anyone on this list with the StopTech kit on their E36 comment on the use of the swept are of the rotors? Do the pads contact all of the face of the rotors?? I don't remember anyone on the list even saying they have installed the StopTech's... --Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: Chester Wong [HYPERLINK "javascript:top.opencompose('<a href="chester_p_wong@yahoo.com','','','')">HYPERLINK "javascript:top.opencompose('chester_p_wong@yahoo.com','','','')"chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:45 AM > To: William Townsend; E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit > > --- William Townsend <HYPERLINK "javascript:top.opencompose('wtownsend@juniper.net','','','')"wtownsend@juniper.net> wrote: > > The pads barely use 2/3 of the swept area of the rotor which seemed > > odd..... > > That's odd. I know for the Elise since Lotus wants to keep the use of > different parts down to a minimum, they use the same rotors on all four > corners. For such a light car, the rear calipers are small and the pads > are > likewise small and the pad doesn't use the whole swept area of the disc. > There > is one aftermarket company making discs that are sized properly so as to > save > weight. > > In this case, as an aftermarket company offering a high performance brake > kit, > the use of a pad/rotor combination that doesn't fully utilize the swept > area > (esp for the front) seems very odd. But then again, this doesn't surprise > me. > > Chester ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm ************************************************* .. ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm ************************************************* -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 - Release Date: 10/1/2006
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#3. Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:17:24 -0400 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Bill, You didn't look very hard. I'm assuming that was you this weekend at WGI. We were in Garage 13 just a few down from you....inconspicuous green E36 M3 with StopTech front/rear kit. ; ) To answer your question, yes, the pads use the entire swept area of the friction ring. Course if that was not you at WGI, well, then the answer to your question is still the same. Cheers. Jack Money Elephant Motorsports http://www.elephantmotorsports.com On 10/2/06, William Townsend <wtownsend@juniper.net> wrote: > > Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:08:11 -0400 > From: "William Townsend" <wtownsend@juniper.net> > Subject: RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit > > Yea, we all stood around looking at that and wondered if the StopTech > kit was the same. No one around had one. > > Anyone on this list with the StopTech kit on their E36 comment on the > use of the swept are of the rotors? Do the pads contact all of the face > of the rotors?? > > I don't remember anyone on the list even saying they have installed the > StopTech's... > > --Bill
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#4. RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from William Townsend
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 15:27:42 -0400 From: "William Townsend" <wtownsend@juniper.net> Subject: RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit We just walked the paddock, didn't see you in the garage at the time we were looking. Oh well!! Yes, that was me putting that kit in Tom's car in between running with my students and my sessions. Wish I knew you were there, always fun meeting fellow digesters!!! I think I remember us playing on track now that you mention it. That was fun! Thanks for the info Jack! --Bill >Bill, > >You didn't look very hard. I'm assuming that was you this weekend at WGI. We were in Garage 13 just a few down from >you....inconspicuous green E36 M3 with StopTech front/rear kit. ; ) To answer your question, yes, the pads use the entire >swept area of the friction ring. Course if that was not you at WGI, well, then the answer to your question is still the same. >Cheers. >Jack Money >Elephant Motorsports >http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
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#5. Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Gary
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:53:18 -0500 From: "Gary" <probikeguy@probikeusa.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit I have the Stoptechs. They use the whole rotor. Mine are in the box in the trunk of the car.. They will be on the car sometime int he next two weeks....Now that I have finished the bathroom remodel from hell. I can resume working on my car... Gary Preparing for mother in law visit...Mother in law from Moldova... ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Townsend" <wtownsend@juniper.net> To: "E36M3" <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:16 AM Subject: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:08:11 -0400 From: "William Townsend" <wtownsend@juniper.net> Subject: RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Yea, we all stood around looking at that and wondered if the StopTech kit was the same. No one around had one. Anyone on this list with the StopTech kit on their E36 comment on the use of the swept are of the rotors? Do the pads contact all of the face of the rotors?? I don't remember anyone on the list even saying they have installed the StopTech's... --Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: Chester Wong [mailto:chester_p_wong@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:45 AM > To: William Townsend; E36M3 > Subject: Re: [E36M3] RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit > > --- William Townsend <wtownsend@juniper.net> wrote: > > The pads barely use 2/3 of the swept area of the rotor which seemed > > odd..... > > That's odd. I know for the Elise since Lotus wants to keep the use of > different parts down to a minimum, they use the same rotors on all four > corners. For such a light car, the rear calipers are small and the pads > are > likewise small and the pad doesn't use the whole swept area of the disc. > There > is one aftermarket company making discs that are sized properly so as to > save > weight. > > In this case, as an aftermarket company offering a high performance brake > kit, > the use of a pad/rotor combination that doesn't fully utilize the swept > area > (esp for the front) seems very odd. But then again, this doesn't surprise > me. > > Chester ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#6. RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:03:38 -0400 From: "Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks" <rob@shortshifter.com> Subject: RE: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit I doubt anyone would mind me answering a direct technical point despite not being a sponsor of this list. If this is a problem, please do let me know and I will refrain from further responses. > --- William Townsend <wtownsend@juniper.net> wrote: > > The pads barely use 2/3 of the swept area of the rotor which seemed odd..... It's not odd at all. What you will notice in a comparison between an OEM rotor and a typical 2-piece aftermarket rotor, when looking at total rotor diameter versus the center hat section is that an aftermarket rotor typically has less swept area height. Height is expressed as the pad dimension, when looking directly at the material face, from top to bottom. In order to preserve sufficient strength in the aluminum hat of an aftermarket rotor, the hat has a broad flat area through which the mounting bolts attach to the rotor. Subsequently, the actual pad height in the majority of big brake kits is actually shorter than the OE M3 pad! This is true of Alcon, AP Racing, Brembo/Porsche/Mov'it, StopTech, Wilwood, etc. The only rare applications are the "mega" kits (Alcon, AP, and Wilwood all have a caliper that uses a pad that is taller than OE M3, but often requires a 14"-16" rotor). In comparison, the OE rotor is a 1-piece casting which intrinsically does _not_ rely on a nut & bolt attachment between rotor disk and rotor hat, and is therefore a stronger piece. This design has a very narrow hat, which allows a very tall pad. For reasons having to do with the OE floating caliper design, the OE pads appear as tall sections of a triangle, tapering from top to bottom. In contrast, pads for aftermarket fixed calipers are wide rectangles with parallel sides. This difference in shape is what results in more total surface area with the aftermarket pad than with a taller OE pad. The UUC/Wilwood kit uses the OE rotors from the E46 M3. An interesting detail about BMW's engineering of the E46 M3 brake package is that even though this rotor is a half-inch greater in diameter than the E36 M3 rotor, it uses the exact same OE pad! Yes, the normal mode of operation with genuine E46 M3 brakes is to leave a quarter-inch more unswept area of the total diameter. on top of the usual unswept area that you see on the E36 M3 rotors! What is even more interesting is the genuine BMW "floating" version of this rotor (which UUC offers as an option in the UUC/Wilwood brake kits). Following a similar concept to aftermarket floating rotors with a separate disk to allow for radial heat expansion unaffected by a fixed hat connection, the BMW rotor is built somewhat differently. Manufactured at the OE level, that rotor does not have the constraints of the aftermarket manufacturers. no standard-size rotors that must be adapted, no situation with a simple aluminum hat. Instead, BMW Motorsport uses a "radial floating" design where the floating connectors between the rotor hat and the rotor disk connect in the center of the disk between the inside and outside face planes. It's a very interesting construction that is not simply "assembled" but is built all together at the foundry level. Here's a close-up pic of the BMW Motorsport floating interface: http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/pbc/images/radial1.jpg This is in contrast to the common aftermarket method that can be referred to as "surface floating" - the floating connections attach on the outer face/plane of the disk, effectively a surface contact point. The point about that floating design, as can be seen in the picture link above, is that there is an actual gap between the rotor disk and the hat. The OE pads still maintain a distance from that edge. Quite clearly, the BMW Motorsport design of this rotor is that a significant area is left unswept just outward of the hat. If anything, as the BMW design itself leaves significant unswept area, this creates an additional amount of heat sink and separation from the hot area of the disk and the central area that is in contact with the wheel bearing. The fact that the pads used in the Wilwood calipers are a small amount shorter than the OE BMW pads is immaterial. The fact that they are a specific height as chosen for this caliper when used with the E46 M3 rotor is important, and first requires a little more explanation. Let's first look at the bigger picture of brakes - how they work, what they do, and what's important about a setup. The simplest analysis of a braking system is that it is designed to take kinetic energy (the vehicle's forward movement) and convert it to heat energy and then get rid of that energy. Forward movement is energy, and by taking that energy away, the vehicle slows down. Basic enough. But why do we have brakes on all four wheels instead of just the front? Also basic - it is undesirable to unsettle the vehicle any more than necessary during braking. Some amount of frontward weight transfer is normal and unavoidable, but it is possible to mitigate that weight transfer somewhat by braking all four wheels. And, in the fine-tuning of how much braking we do in the front versus the rear, we get into the realm of brake bias, the implementation of which is commonly known as "balanced braking". All brake systems, OE and aftermarket, are designed with good brake bias in mind. How is brake bias determined? There are many factors, but a simplified way of looking at it is "brake torque" - how much energy a specific brake system creates (or converts) based on a long list of specific factors. This list includes (but is not limited to) rotor diameter, pad height, hydraulic pressure, pad compound coefficient of friction (cf), pad height, piston diameter, and piston count. A good brake system tunes all of these factors to deliver a very specific amount of brake torque from the front and from the rear, such that the resulting comparison gives a specific ratio of front brake torque to rear brake torque ideal for that specific vehicle. The bias, then, is how much more front than rear. I promise, we're getting near the end. That entire preamble is required to conceptualize the answer to the original question. By adjusting each and every one of the factors listed above, we get the final brake torque figures that we determine are desirable. Using the E46 M3 rotors gives us a specific diameter we want to use, along with sufficiently expanded "heat sink" of total rotor surface area and mass. This achieves the desired balance of 1) easy availability through any BMW parts source, 2) sufficiently greater heat absorption capabilities suitable for the E36, 3) fitment under 17" wheels, and 4) exact dimension to work with the specific Wilwood calipers and pad height to perfectly tune the bias. This critical attention to details that affect bias is why we do so much work in terms of fine-tuning that an astute observer of our offerings will note that our "Front only" caliper does not use the same size pistons as the front caliper of our "Four wheel" kit. "Front only" biases correctly with OE rear E36 M3 brakes, and "Four wheel" is biased correctly using the larger rear E46 M3 rotors and appropriate Wilwood calipers. The specific caliper, with the specific piston sizes, with this height pad, and with the particular rotors we choose, is simply the correct formula for the bias we choose in each of our options. The fact that there is unswept area at the innermost section of the rotor that is more than one is used to seeing in other aftermarket kits is simply a result of the "masking" of unused total rotor radius with a wide aluminum hat that typical aftermarket 2-piece rotors use. The actual unswept area of the radius of the UUC/Wilwood brakes is not significantly more or less than a comparable other-brand brake package with 2-piece rotors. As far as any concerns about durability of this design, the rotors, the pads, or calipers, one simply needs to review the consistent top-finishing E36 racers in BMW Club Racing IP and JP classes here on the east coast. IP in particular, which is where the E36 M3 competes, has about 10 drivers that rotate through the top positions. Through the summer, the winningest of these drivers are all using UUC/Wilwood brakes with flawless results, no issues whatsoever. Essentially, the results speak for themselves. - Rob Levinson UUC Motorwerks * 908-874-9092 * http://www.uucmotorwerks.com
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#7. Re: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Jack - Elephant Motorsports
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:09:47 -0400 From: "Jack - Elephant Motorsports" <jack@elephantmotorsports.com> Subject: Re: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit Darn, funnier yet is that Rob Levinson was my student!!! D'oh! I'm sure he could have assisted and/or answered questions. Jack On 10/2/06, William Townsend <wtownsend@juniper.net> wrote: > > We just walked the paddock, didn't see you in the garage at the time we > were looking. Oh well!! Yes, that was me putting that kit in Tom's car in > between running with my students and my sessions. Wish I knew you were > there, always fun meeting fellow digesters!!! > > > > I think I remember us playing on track now that you mention it. That was > fun! > > > > Thanks for the info Jack! > > > > --Bill >
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#8. Re: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Neil Maller
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Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 17:41:21 -0400 From: Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> Subject: Re: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit on 10/2/06 1:26 PM, "William Townsend" <wtownsend@juniper.net> wrote: > I don't remember anyone on the list even saying they have installed the > StopTech's... > --Bill Yep, I posted briefly about that a couple of months ago. Bought the ST's front and rear - albeit in two separate technical and financial stages <g> - from list sponsor Elephant Motorsports, <http://www.elephantmotorsports.com>. Yes, the ST's sweep the entire rotor face. They also use a rotor with both a larger diameter and greater thickness than UUC (or stock), at 332x32mm front and rear rather than 325x28mm front and 328x20mm. (There's also a giant 355x32mm ST front version which would require 18" or bigger wheels.) Seems to me there are pros and cons to each approach. ST achieves proper front/rear bias with much smaller piston sizes in the rear caliper, but at the price of perhaps a rather large and heavy rear rotor. Which, on the other hand, cools very well - remember that while the rears do much less work they also normally get much less cooling air. The ST rotors claim to have exceptionally efficient internal cooling vanes, and they certainly have more thermal mass and usable wear thickness. Replacement ST rotors run a stiff $250 each without hats but with mounting hardware, plus some assembly required. Fit and finish of the ST kit are both flawless. The new UUC/Wilwood kit ***which I haven't seen, so this is by description and analysis only*** uses stock E46 M3 rotors, either the 1-piece US version or 2-piece Euro. This seems likely to make for simpler availability and more economical replacement, although you might have to do that more often than with the ST design. The 332mm rotor size of the ST kit contains a hidden gotcha in the sense that BMW OE wheels have a special dropped well profile in the outer area of the rim. This reduces radial clearance to the caliper and means that no OE 17" wheels are likely to fit without mammoth front spacers, at least 25mm and maybe 30mm, depending on which wheel pattern. I'd guess this won't be an issue with the slightly smaller UUC rotors. (This is not to be confused with the axial clearance issue to the inside faces of the wheel spokes, which affects all 4-piston calipers and typically requires spacers, at least for the fronts.) My Kosei track wheels fit front (just) and rear with no spacers. ST uses a unique bolt-in bridge reinforcement over the pad access window which they claim makes their caliper substantially stiffer than otherwise similar designs, and I believe it. Certainly they have appreciably better pedal feel than stock M3 brakes. I see that Wilwood has only a vestigial bridge there, although I can't say what if any difference that makes in actual use. Wilwood is a very well established race supplier, and their calipers are certainly much more serious than UUC's previous "Very Serious Brakes" by PBR, which, well, weren't. Either ST or UUC/W can be ordered with track pads rather than street, and there's a wide choice for each. My bottom line assessment is that for mixed street and track use where OE wheels need to be used some of the time, the UUC/W kit may well be a decent choice. It costs at least a grand (depending on options) less than the 4-wheel ST kit. For a track car requiring ultimate braking performance and where use of stock wheels is no longer an issue, then I think the ST kit is worth the higher price. And StopTech has a very well-established racing record with BMW's. My usage falls into the last category, so while the new UUC/W kit wasn't available when I bought my brakes, I'd have gone with the ST kit anyway. YMMV... Neil Fort Wayne, IN 96 M3 - Bastard child 03 525iT - Sterling Grey Metallic 05 Mini - Cooper S with LSD
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#9. Re: [E36M3] Re: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit - from Carlos Lopez
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:00:21 -0400 From: "Carlos Lopez" <clopez98m3@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Re: New UUC Wilwood Brake Kit On 10/2/06, Neil Maller <neil.maller@gte.net> wrote: > > >Yep, I posted briefly about that a couple of months ago. Bought the ST's > >front and rear - albeit in two separate technical and financial stages > <g> - > >from list sponsor Elephant Motorsports, > >http://www.elephantmotorsports.com. Seems quite a few of us were at WGI this weekend. It was big brake kit galore at that place. I think every kit ever made was in attendance. Jack's old very expensive AP Brakes were there, I saw his old BBS RCJs and his old (but good) slicks there. My old Brembo GT big brake kit showed up in a C-Mod car and the racer liked the balance with stock rears. Then I saw numerous "I made my own" big brake kits. An E30 with gen 3 RX-7 4 piston calipers on Miata BBK rotors. If you walked down to the racer paddock Andy Watt's C-Mod car has some sexy Performance Friction BBK (I think that's what the pro's use in Grand Am). My stock staggered wheels (the forged polished ones that look like the LTW ones but w/o the Motorsport letters) require a 20mm spacer up front to clear the StopTechs. I want to pick up a pair of 8.5" ones to match the rears and then I could run a smaller spacer. 15mm or less would work with these. -Carlos 98 M3
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#10. Sway Bar Recommendations with H&R Coil Overs? - from drb, esq.
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 16:37:00 -0700 From: "drb, esq." <dr.bento@gmail.com> Subject: Sway Bar Recommendations with H&R Coil Overs? I recently purchased my first BMW, a 1995 M3 track car/daily driver developed by a Pacific Northwest driver. The car has an H&R coil over suspension already installed on it along with an X brace and a bolt out four point roll bar. I feel that the suspension is good, but there is too much body roll in my opinion. I am planning on replacing the rear trailing arm bushings with the Powerflex RATB as this is only suspension component that requires attnetion. In the course of researching dialing in the car I have investigated various sway bar options and I have seen numerous recommendations. Options as I see it include Dinan, Eibach, UUC and the old Racing Dynamics bars (I'm not sure if these are still available). Another List memeber has offered me a set of freebie Dinan bars, but I'm not sure how these will match up with the spring rates of the H&R coil over set up. Free is good though. I plan on driving the car daily to and from work (approximately 80 miles round trip) and DEing it with NASA and BMWCCA. I like a firm suspension (I used to have a bone jarring older Carrera), but I must admit I like the compliance of the H&R set up. I appreciate all recommendations. David Benett -- Look, I don't want to wax philosophic, but I will say that if you're alive you've got to flap your arms and legs, you've got to jump around a lot, for life is the very opposite of death, and therefore you must at very least think noisy and colorfully, or you're not alive. -Mel Brooks