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#1. RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Matt Bader
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:11:02 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Thanks, Marty. Were you happy with the results? I hear loss of some torque on low and mid-range, but improvement at the top end. Matt Bader 98 M3/4 -----Original Message----- From: marty [mailto:mfraiser@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:58 AM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:57:00 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? The M50 intake manifold can be found off of E34 and E36 OBDI M50 motors (maybe 92 or earlier - 95 525i and 92-95 325i), as well as S50 from '95 M3. There are two versions i think - earlier (pre-M50TU VANOS?) is a bit different than the later ones but supposedly they all work - although I think the later ones are more desirable for some reason I can't recall. That's off the top of my head - could do a bit of research and find the exact range of donor M50 cars. Most junkyards seem to know that the M50 manifolds are in some demand as a performance upgrade and charge a premium over what you'd think a dusty 12+ years old plastic intake manifold should cost. Most of the ones I saw sold for about $200 and even more. You can find them on ebay too. I got one on ebay from an S50 for about $105 which seemed relatively reasonable. I used the Eurosport adapter kit for mine earlier this year. It is a bit pricey but all-inclusive and a clean install. marty '96 M3 with S50 intake manifold and Eurosport adapter '95 540i-6 with BMW M60 intake manifold mdriver13@aol.com wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:05:47 -0400 > From: mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > Not totally sure, but I think the M50 manfold itself can be found in junkyards off?a e28 535 series car?? > > > Bob Gill > 97 ///M3 coupe > Philly Region SCCA > 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion > Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering > ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#2. RE: Replacing Iintake Manifold? - from Burgess, Kim L
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:33:04 -0700 From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> Subject: RE: Replacing Iintake Manifold? While I have no personal experience to draw from, I've heard good reports with regard to the Eurosport kit also. Again reported here and local to my BMW Chapter, you will need to get cams to 'cover-up' the 'hole' in the HP/Torque curve created by this manifold. I have seen the curves overlaid, for stock and with manifold mod, and there is a bunch of 'area' missing with just the manifold mod. KLB -------------------- 5 -------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:30:31 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? The Eurosport kit seems to be the most common conversion kit to use. On 7/9/07, Theodore Serbinski <stanson@gmail.com> wrote: > > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 20:50:12 -0400 > From: Theodore Serbinski <stanson@gmail.com> > Subject: replacing intake manifold? > > Hey guys, > > So I'm thinking about replacing my intake manifold with an M50 one -- > not only for the performance gains, but because I need to get in > there to replace some sensors and hoses, why not just upgrade the > whole thing (gaskets) and all in one shot? :-) > > Anywho, does anyone have any experience with these guys and/or this kit? > > http://www.koperformance.com/BMW/engine/manifolds/ko/ > ko_performance_bmw_parts_m50_manifold_conversion_kit_e36_m3.htm > > Seems like an excellent deal right now being on sale and from what I > can tell, all seems legit and good. But would like to have some more > eyes confirm this first :-) > > ted '97 Estoril M3/4
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#3. Re: [E36M3] Valve Service Interval - from Lawrence Barbieri
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:35:43 -0400 From: "Lawrence Barbieri" <larry@logicalconclusions.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] Valve Service Interval > > -------------------- 2 -------------------- > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:30:08 -0700 > From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] Valve Service Interval > > I'd look at it this way. If you don't plan on pulling the head again > anytime soon, and you plan on keeping the car, replace the following: I don't plan on pulling it again any time soon and I do plan to keep the car. retainers: a must > lifters: They're probably noisy, this will help quiet them down > springs: a must Retainers, definitely! My lifters aren't really noisy, but I'm considering doing them. Springs are also high on the list of must do. As for the valves: > Do a leakdown test to figure out if your valves are sealing, if they're > sealing (no/low leakage), and the motor hasn't been 'zinged' (over-rev'd), > they shouldn't need to be replaced. Motor has never been 'zinged', as far as I know. Is the machine shop capable of determining the condition of the valves and recommending replacement or regrinding? - Larry
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#4. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Carlos Lopez
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:39:48 -0400 From: "Carlos Lopez" <clopez98m3@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? On 7/10/07, Matt Bader <mbader@exammaster.com> wrote: > Thanks, Marty. Were you happy with the results? I hear loss of some torque > on low and mid-range, but improvement at the top end. I'm very happy with mine which is essentially the same as Marty's. Junkyard M50 intake (~$100) + the Eurosport kit. I have a couple of other things like no clutch driven fan and underdrive pulleys so that *may* affect things a bit. If I get into stockish 95 M3s and drive I'm always wondering where the power is. :-) Carlos 98 M3
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#5. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from David Ngo
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ngo <rudngo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? In my experience, I experienced a slight loss of torque in the low range, but midrange was improved and top end is very good. I made up for the low end loss with a 3.46 diff. :) Dave ----- Original Message ---- From: Matt Bader <mbader@exammaster.com> To: E36M3 <e36m3@bmw-m.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 12:08:27 PM Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:11:02 -0400 From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Thanks, Marty. Were you happy with the results? I hear loss of some torque on low and mid-range, but improvement at the top end. Matt Bader 98 M3/4 -----Original Message----- From: marty [mailto:mfraiser@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:58 AM To: E36M3 Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:57:00 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? The M50 intake manifold can be found off of E34 and E36 OBDI M50 motors (maybe 92 or earlier - 95 525i and 92-95 325i), as well as S50 from '95 M3. There are two versions i think - earlier (pre-M50TU VANOS?) is a bit different than the later ones but supposedly they all work - although I think the later ones are more desirable for some reason I can't recall. That's off the top of my head - could do a bit of research and find the exact range of donor M50 cars. Most junkyards seem to know that the M50 manifolds are in some demand as a performance upgrade and charge a premium over what you'd think a dusty 12+ years old plastic intake manifold should cost. Most of the ones I saw sold for about $200 and even more. You can find them on ebay too. I got one on ebay from an S50 for about $105 which seemed relatively reasonable. I used the Eurosport adapter kit for mine earlier this year. It is a bit pricey but all-inclusive and a clean install. marty '96 M3 with S50 intake manifold and Eurosport adapter '95 540i-6 with BMW M60 intake manifold mdriver13@aol.com wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:05:47 -0400 > From: mdriver13@aol.com > Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > Not totally sure, but I think the M50 manfold itself can be found in junkyards off?a e28 535 series car?? > > > Bob Gill > 97 ///M3 coupe > Philly Region SCCA > 2005/2006 Philly Region BSP Champion > Sponsored by WCC & Rogue Engineering > ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm ************************************************* ************************************************* Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com DIGEST INFORMATION: http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm *************************************************
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#6. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Jamie Howton
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:59:12 -0500 From: "Jamie Howton" <jhowton@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > If I get into stockish 95 M3s and drive > I'm always wondering where the power is. :-) Oh come-on, that's just cruel... ;-) Jamie
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#7. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Benjamin Hirsch
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:59:17 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? There is definitely a loss of torque on the low end (below 4000 rpms). This loss of torque is why I waited to do this modification until I was ready to do cams (+Software/supporting mods). -Ben
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#8. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from marty
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:17:01 -0400 From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? yes, i am happy with the results. I installed the Conforti CAI and removed the ASC throttle body at the same time. Still has stock air flow meter, throttle body, injectors, and cams. It has base Shark s/w it's had for years. It did seem to lose a bit of torque at lower rpms (3-4.5K maybe) but a definite improvement from around 5K to redline. While the power used to sort of peak around 5.5K, stay nearly flat, and decline near redline it now climbs through that range. Found myself hitting the rev limiter some until I got used to it. I think I was waiting for the power to drop off to shift but it doesn't drop off any more :) Plus the sound was different with the CAI so couldn't use that as a shift point until I got used to it too. It's not dramatic like forced induction but it is noticeable and I think it was worth it. Normally aspirated power isn't cheap on these motors so it's probably the best bang for the buck. FWIW, I recently had some unplanned head work done by VAC Motorsports which included the 'more aggressive' Stage 1 valve seat angle grind. They claim it improves airflow at lower RPMs resulting in more torque and HP. I had it at the track this past weekend and I think they are correct. i.e. that seemed to more than restore any lost power. It's an awfully expensive way to get that power back but if you're doing anything to the head it's worth keeping in mind. I've not had it on a dyno before or after any of this so it's all seat of the pants observations. marty Matt Bader wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:11:02 -0400 > From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> > Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > Thanks, Marty. Were you happy with the results? I hear loss of some torque > on low and mid-range, but improvement at the top end. > > Matt Bader > 98 M3/4 >
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#9. Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? - from Benjamin Hirsch
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:46:52 -0700 From: "Benjamin Hirsch" <benjamin.hirsch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? Remember that, as for feel, when you loose low end torque, even if the top end power was unchanged, you'd notice the sudden increase in power up top because the difference between torque levels (low-> high rpm) would be more significant. You do gain some top level torque, but for anyone doing this mod, you have to ask yourself how important the top end power is. If you're tracking your car, it may be very important. IF you're just driving around town or on country roads spiritedly, I'm not sure I'd do this mod without cams/supporting software. ...and of course, YMMV :) -Ben On 7/10/07, marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:17:01 -0400 > From: marty <mfraiser@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > yes, i am happy with the results. I installed the Conforti CAI and > removed the ASC throttle body at the same time. Still has stock air > flow meter, throttle body, injectors, and cams. It has base Shark s/w > it's had for years. > It did seem to lose a bit of torque at lower rpms (3-4.5K maybe) but a > definite improvement from around 5K to redline. While the power used to > sort of peak around 5.5K, stay nearly flat, and decline near redline it > now climbs through that range. > Found myself hitting the rev limiter some until I got used to it. I > think I was waiting for the power to drop off to shift but it doesn't > drop off any more :) Plus the sound was different with the CAI so > couldn't use that as a shift point until I got used to it too. > It's not dramatic like forced induction but it is noticeable and I think > it was worth it. Normally aspirated power isn't cheap on these motors > so it's probably the best bang for the buck. > > FWIW, I recently had some unplanned head work done by VAC Motorsports > which included the 'more aggressive' Stage 1 valve seat angle grind. > They claim it improves airflow at lower RPMs resulting in more torque > and HP. I had it at the track this past weekend and I think they are > correct. i.e. that seemed to more than restore any lost power. It's an > awfully expensive way to get that power back but if you're doing > anything to the head it's worth keeping in mind. > > I've not had it on a dyno before or after any of this so it's all seat > of the pants observations. > > marty > > Matt Bader wrote: > > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:11:02 -0400 > > From: "Matt Bader" <mbader@exammaster.com> > > Subject: RE: [E36M3] replacing intake manifold? > > > > Thanks, Marty. Were you happy with the results? I hear loss of some > torque > > on low and mid-range, but improvement at the top end. > > > > Matt Bader > > 98 M3/4 > > > > > > > ************************************************* > Please help support the E36M3 list by visiting our sponsors: > > Bimmerworld http://www.bimmerworld.com > Turner Motorsport http://www.turnermotorsport.com > Eurosport High Performance http://www.eurosporthighperformance.com > Rogue Engineering http://www.rogueengineering.com > Treehouse Racing http://www.treehouseracing.com > Elephant Motorsports Inc. http://www.elephantmotorsports.com > > DIGEST INFORMATION: > http://www.bmw-m.net/resources/digest_info.htm > ************************************************* > > > -- Thanks, Ben
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#10. Re: Replacing Iintake Manifold? - from Steve Klein
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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:20:56 -0500 From: Steve Klein <s.klein@steveklein.cc> Subject: Re: Replacing Iintake Manifold? On a similar note, does anyone have a 'refresh' kit for the intake manifold on a '95 S50? I'm going to be replacing the head gasket in the near future and while I've got the intake and head off I want to replace whatever gaskets and hoses I can underneath there. Does either company (or another) have a kit for just that? Or do I have to get out the ETK and piece it together? Thanks, Steve > From: "Burgess, Kim L" <kim.l.burgess@boeing.com> > Subject: RE: Replacing Iintake Manifold? > > While I have no personal experience to draw from, I've heard good > reports with regard to the Eurosport kit also. Again reported here and > local to my BMW Chapter, you will need to get cams to 'cover-up' the > 'hole' in the HP/Torque curve created by this manifold. I have seen > the > curves overlaid, for stock and with manifold mod, and there is a bunch > of 'area' missing with just the manifold mod. > > KLB > > >> >> From: Theodore Serbinski <stanson@gmail.com> >> Subject: replacing intake manifold? >> >> Anywho, does anyone have any experience with these guys and/or this >> > kit? > >> >> http://www.koperformance.com/BMW/engine/manifolds/ko/ >> ko_performance_bmw_parts_m50_manifold_conversion_kit_e36_m3.htm >> >>